Just weighing in here.
I understand this proposal as follows - please clarify if I misunderstood.
GYE advertising reaches a certain audience with certain results, and we are trying to 
a] widen the support and understanding of the problem.
b] making rabbonim aware of a solution  that they can refer on - GYE [and the like]

Perhaps such an initiative could be coordinated with the CEO of GYE to map out key figures where an introduction to GYE can be made
with focus on the problem, solution, and breadth of the issue [both in the full range of sufferers and in levels of addiction]

If they then would want a member to accompany they could reach out to see who is comfortable in approaching Rabbi X.
Even if just the preliminary introduction and meeting would be arranged by GYE - the effect of the meeting would be more powerful.

[Of course this does not cover every single rav/ry but if the main influential ones were addressed like this in a systematic manner IMHO the effect would be greater.]

Possible a google sheet with names of Rabbanim - people can add who they think are important and people can then see who they can approach. [and for example Rabbi Wachsman can be crossed off!]

Either way Kudos to R Eerie for spearheading these gr8 initiatives.
"we can't keep it [sobriety] unless we share it with others"
"Service keeps us sober"

I just came across a super point by Vekam on his thread

I think back and ask myself what should I have done different. In whom should I have confided? Who in my life would have understood and who would have been able to help me?  Sadly I still believe the answer to that question is that no one could have helped. I don’t believe that there was someone out there with whom I would have felt safe sharing and I don’t believe there was anyone in my life equipped to help me and not to judge me. 

This includes all of my family, rebbeim, rosh Yeshivas and friends. That level of acceptance just was not there. 

We need to change that. We need to get the message out there that good people are suffering. None of us want to be addicted or to feel compelled to engage in these behaviors. Yet all of us want to be understood. To have people around us with whom we can share and who will be able to help us without judging us. This needs to be our goal. The world is a different place and the time is right for these conversations. Thank you for reading this. please do your part in creating that nonjudgmental atmosphere which would give us addicts greater opportunity to be helped.  Together we can make a difference.  

Followed by HHM's response:

I think the reality is that today there is much more acceptance, however there is a bigger issue. If a fellow puts aside his shame and embarrassment, and opens up to a rebbi - now what? Is the rebbi trained to give the guy a bear hug? Does he know what to say? If that one chance that our struggler gave us is squandered, we may not get another opportunity. 

Probably there should be a GYE training course given to people (rebbeim, mentors, shul rabbonim) who really care, are passionate, and are willing to volunteer time, to share what is available and be aware of the various methods that have worked.

Followed by a question by Teshuva Guy
I am about to find out for myself how this scenario will play out. I’m really scared of what might happen. I have to just have faith that I chose a person wisely (and a wise person) who will give me the support and encouragement I need. Because I need to share my past experience (not graphically, of course) of my previous life with men before becoming a Baal Teshuvah, so it’s not just that I hope he knows about the problems people have with P and M, but I also hope he can accept what happened to me in the past. So I hope it is not a huge mistake. Even though I know he will not share the information with anyone, he may never look at me the same way. Any thoughts?

I can second that sentiment - where in my role in chinuch this has come up time and again - what to share with who, for example a bochur was involved in a sexual crime and we shared it with the avreich who was coaching him, the avriech was in shock and said that he would have prefered not to know since now he looks at him as an abuser, instead of the sick bochur that he knew he was dealing with all along.
Since then we have made changes in when and how we share information with other mechanchim 

Food for thought.

iwannalivereal wrote on 12 Jul 2024 23:02:

imagining the response,
"i must say, im suffering from internet addiction too.........blah.........blah........blah........crying........drama........."

FACTS!

This calls for real daas tora - name included please!!
I mentioned this at the beginning of the thread, and although I was swept up with enthusiasm and hung in the Mir, I still think that there is room for a shaala.
IF there is an issue of chillul Hashem, the end may not justify the means, no matter the potential outcome. - this is a real shaala.
Similarly my contact in Lev Shomea was very vocal that the fact that throughout the doros inyonie kedusha was kept under wraps, evidently that is our mesora not to make a habala about it but to deal with it quietly. - whether the aforementioned sign falls into that category can be a shaala too.

As an aside, it could be that those suffering from these issues like we/some of us are, could be categorized as onsim and therefore eliminate the issue of chillul Hashem.
However even myself as an addict would be judgmental if I would become aware of certain Rabbonim watching porn... and could understand the knee jerk reaction of the sign rippers. 

Sorry for the arichus guys; this was my response to the sign taker downer:

Shalom Aleichem and thanks for reaching out! It really means a lot to me the fact that you took the time to explain to me why you'd take down such a sign. It actually causes me much heartache after I kill myself to hang up signs to be able to help people that really need help, and they come down so soon after they're put up. I've probably hung around 200 signs over the past few months and that took quite some time and effort.

It happens to be that I taka was never oimed on the possibility of chilul Hashem so thank you for pointing that out. However, I would like you to be aware that I didn't just hang up this sign without speaking to any Rav. There are 2 rabbanim that know about my signs, plus about 5 or 6 people with positions in chinuch that know about it as well. None of them ever brought up a chillul hashem issue or any other issue either.

In making a decision to take down my sign due to chilul hashem I'm assuming you took into account the downsides of removing it. In case you didn't, let me explain... As mentioned in the sign there are a minimum of 40 people in Yeshiva that have struggled through this sugya. I personally know a very large number of b'nei torah not from Yeshiva that have struggled with this stuff as well. The metzius is that most people that struggle with this stuff do not know how to get out of it themselves, and they also don't know how to get the proper help. From all those that contacted me through my sign, there were only one or two that had ever built up the courage to speak to a rav or rebbi face to face. When this struggle does not get taken care of properly it gets worse and worse. The person throughout his lifetime may end up being oiver in some pretty serious aveiros hundreds and thousands of times. Aside from this, the struggle can slowly but surely rip a good choshuve yungerman out of his learning. It can also destroy marriages and lives. I've seen some of this destruction first hand. So... by taking down the sign, you run the risk of a guy not seeing it and continuing to struggle. All his aveiros are now somewhat on your cheshbon - had he seen the sign he probably would've gotten out of this mess. If he ends up dropping out of Yeshiva, it's on your cheshbon. If he gets caught by his wife and ends up with severe shalom bayis issues for life, it's on your cheshbon. If he ends up divorced, it's on your cheshbon.

Another point to think about... I'm assuming you don't know anyone that struggles with this stuff. However, keep in mind that it's quite possible that I'm your brother. It's possible that I'm your shvugger as well. If I'm not, there's a very real chance that some of your very close friends struggle with this stuff. Just imagine finding out in 20 years about a close relative or friend going through a divorce rch"l, and you hear that it all started with an internet addiction. Imagine had he seen this sign... do you want to take the risk of holding back help from a close friend or relative? And please don't tell me that all your friends are chashuve b'nei torah or very yeshivish and those types of guys don't struggle with this stuff. I know guys from a number of top yeshivas (myself included)... brisk, pragers, yagdil... a few r' mottel guys... And it's the real yeshivish guys as well. Probably about 20 percent of the guys that call me don't have texting on their phone. I got two phone calls recently from yungeleit that don't even own a cell phone at all. These are chashuve yeshivish yungeleit... yet they struggle. I'd put down quite a high amount of money betting that you have at least one relative or close friend that has struggled with this stuff. Make sure to have that "anonymous" karov in mind before you remove the sign.

So... my main point is that before you take down such a sign, you'd better be ready to take achrayus for what you may cause. If I were you, I'd be scared to do that without asking a Rav. If you get an official psak I'd love to hear... I have no problem trying to rewrite the nusach if a Rav would feel that there may be chilul hashem involved the way I wrote it. I also have no problem taking out the line about the 40 guys. I'm here to be marbeh kavod sheim shamayim, if you are as well, great, if not - I'm gonna keep hanging the sign and I'm assuming you're gonna keep on yanking 'em!

Kol Tuv

I love how even the sign-rippers in BMG have mareh mekomos. 

Tell him he's a chasid shotah who's going to a special place in gehinom. Ask him why it's a chillul hashem to mention people reaching out for help, but not a chillul hashem when those same guys were on their knees in their bathroom worshipping a (non-jewish!) porn star. Explain to him that he's very similar to the people hanging their idols on the back of the door, and his denial of the facts would be cute if it wasn't so pathetic. 

Sigh. There's a special type of idiot in the world. And I can respect that he emailed you. So having to give a serious response. Explain to him the pain of someone suffering from lust addiction. Point him to the statistics. And then tell him that you cannot be mochel him if he deterred anyone from getting help and the only hope for teshuva he has is to take over the sign hanging job. 

Hi,

I'm not sure if advertising like this in a forum is appropriate conduct or not. If so, can a moderator please clue me in so that I won't do such a thing again. I'm 40 yrs old. Not so great with technology or comfortable with it. So I kind of found the tools on this site difficult to use. Plus I don't have the kind of privacy I would want to use this platform all the time when I need it. Many times my access to a computer with internet is blocked.

So here is what happened to me. I'll try to make it short and as appropriate PG as I can.

Recently a woman to some extent successfully seduced me on Jwed. She messaged innappropriate things to me and I messaged her back, telling myself that it is OK because I need to get married and she is the only person who seems to be extremely open to this. I kind of realized after a few messages that what I was doing was wrong, so I asked her to stop. She did not message me again. The problem is that now I keep on fantasizing about messaging her again on my email (I memorized her address), expressing my intentions to continue the relationship. I have a problem with anger and guilt that feels like it's not completely solvable with doing my volunteer work alone. Plus the work often hits unpredictable snags and it is frustrating when I have to put in more effort into it, especially when it comes to having to rely more heavily on technological expertise or having people who are generally reluctant to partner with me in my work calling me back when I just happen not to be available. An orginazation called me recently to partner with me, but I was at lunch and my phone was in my bedroom. They didn't leave a message, generally fitting into the overall picture of reluctance to partner with me in my volunteer work. Perhaps because I have a hard time making the case that its valuable to anyone. I'm not sure if this second stage that I'm currently working on is something beneficial. With the first stage that I worked on I can already say Hashem helped me to produce tangible benefits to my customers.

This second stage lacks clarity right now because I'm looking forward on possible success instead building on a record (The second stage is a very different type of work than what I was doing originally). I currently have just one customer that I am serving in the original type of work that I was doing, but it has taken up a miniscule amount of my time. Also, some insomnia to make it more difficult to have patience when life hits a snag.

So now that I established that it is difficult for my volunteer to completely always block out the urge to message this woman, and that it seems sometimes like a possibly more healthy solution to my problem than drinking alcohol (Only yesterday did I start this, maybe thinking it's somehow better than date talk lines or messaging to cope). I tried to get a GYE counselor to help me with my general problem of this addiction, but he said he wanted to talk to my Rabbi about whether he should counsel based on a suspicion that I might have a mental illness connected to this addiction, and I was uncomfortable sharing this issue with my Rabbi at the time, so I broke off the potential counseling relationship. Plus he suggested mental health treatment which is extremely difficult for me to access at this time due to lack of funds, medical insurance application tied up because it's difficult for me to cancel my previous medicaid insurance in in a state (USA) I lived in previously, plus gold standard medicaid clinics in both states have rejected me for their programs, one because of not fitting in to technical diagnostic criteria, and the clinic in the current state refused to tell me why they didn't want to help me.

I'm don't think at all that I'm the first person that has this particular situation happen to him (strange woman on the internet type). Does anyone feel like they can comprehensively advise me on this issue, despite the fact I happen to be over the past few months or six a difficult person to deal with?
Remember, I keep having (possibly over the past two days) strong urges/fantasies to message this woman, sometimes it might be to cope with anger and guilt, other times not. Sorry to be so crass and petty. I know I shouldn't be a baal gaava, but she makes me feel important when some other people hate to hear me yell and complain or ignore my suggestions/advice, and that makes it harder for me to control my urge/fantasies to seek attention from her.

Please let me know if it's appropriate to give out my private email, if you think you can better advice over the phone/email.


thanks,
Mister/Rabbi.

thompson wrote on 11 Jul 2024 14:11:

Thank you for the honest share. And that's a really great point. 

HHM likes to point out that lo sasuru does not depend on something being pornography or not. 

But forgetting about religion.
I think alot of guys find they need to give up things other people can safely use. Youtube, twitter, instagram, regular movies, unfiltered phones, whatever. All these things that "normal" people can use but we find as gateways straight to hell. Of course, each person is different and some people find they can use some of those things safely (or perhaps even beneficially). But solving a lust problem often means giving up normal things because we cannot use them responsibly.

Maybe one day we'll heal enough to use them. Maybe not. Doesn't matter today.

This was truly difficult for me to accept.

(Edit: Dov likes to talk about how there are people who can use pornography "safely". Obviously there's an issur and any pornography use has harmful effects. But a "normal" frum man can watch some porn and masturbate without destroying his life / without it being a gateway to further (and even more harmful) actions. An addict who does that gets sucked into a hole that he can't really climb out of. But that's a different schmooze. Just mentioning it to drive home that there are things some people can indulge in safely while other's cannot.)

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jul 2024 16:20:

I think we're talking past each other a little. I agree self-control is important. My point was only that the cake story stresses the preciousness of doing whatever you can even if it's not perfect. And that by itself will not solve any sort of real problem (whether with lust, stinginess, anger, jealousy or anything else). 
Of course every journey to success begins with small victories. And perfection is not the opposite of failure (or something like that). But I do not understand the cake story to be saying, "work on small bits of self-control and relating to Hashem and that will help you get to resolving your problem." 
I understand it to be saying, "don't beat yourself up if you only batted .300 because you tried your hardest and Hashem loves your trying." For many people, there's nothing wrong with their swing and by staying positive they'll be able to do the best they can. But for many people this attitude just enables people to keep on batting .300 their whole life without trying to get to the root of their problem, fix their swing, and bat the .600 (or 1.00) they could be batting.

Would the cake story apply to someone that is miserly and working on giving more tzedaka? Didn't want to give any, tried to give $20 to the meshulach but ended up pulling out a $5 when he walked by.

Maybe I'm reaching, but could you be considering a battle with lust to be different than a battle with other nisyonos / challenges, so the cake is for easy street but not enough for the big game?

Still trying to understand the limitation of valuing self-control and why it doesn't apply across the board (addiction aside).

Everyone gets chizuk from different things, so it's also ok if this simply doesn't do it for you. In that vein, I don't think I should try to convince you that it works. We've elaborated on our viewpoints and its ok to leave it at that 
(I don't mean agree to disagree - I actually dislike that saying, maybe I'll grouch about it sometime. I mean that I can agree with your assessment  for yourself even if it's different than mine - no disagreement. It's not settling, rather understanding).

BenHashemBH wrote on 10 Jul 2024 14:25:

Sure. Always happy to elaborate. 

The point of the cake story is that Hashem appreciates every mitzvah, every attempt to become close with him. And even if it's not possible for you to be perfect, even if you're mostly imperfect, you can still try to come close to Hashem and he will appreciate the actions and the intention. This is both true and beautiful. It is gevalidg chizuk for your average man who wants to be close to Hashem but is normal and finds it difficult to not see the women on the street (or even has a taivah to watch porn or masturbate every now and then). For him, it is important to hear that he just has to give it his best shot and try to come close to Hashem and Hashem will love him regardless.
Many guys on GYE fall into this category.

However, many (more?) guys on GYE fall into another category. These are guys who have developed a more advanced lust problem. For them, hearing "just do your best and Hashem will love you" is not just sheker, it's unhelpful. Yes, just one time stopping/staying away is still a beautiful thing and Hashem still loves you. But these guys have like, an actual problem. Being shomer their eyes half the time in the street doesn't mean they have half a cake, it means they still have a whole problem. A better metaphor would be that they have half a heart. Yes it's better than no heart, but you're still dead. 

It's not about freaking cake. It's about loving some imaginary woman more than you love your wife. It's about prioritizing porn and masturbation over your life. And holding back one time (or ten times, or for ninety days) is a mitzva, but it's not fixing their screwed up lives. 

Not just for the theoretical "true addict". (For addicts it's even worse than that. For them, the cake story enables them to keep on lying to themselves and helps them continue. But that's a Dov schmooze.) I'm talking about the non-addicts. The guys chronically masturbating (before/after/instead of being with their wife), staying late at work to watch porn, developing online relationships with women, binging, or whatever. They have a problem and half a piece of cake is not solving it.

If the holding back is done as a part of a process of changing their life then it's a totally different picture. Then stopping even one time is part of a real solution. And an important part of really solving the problem may well be seeing the value in every time you hold back. But that's not what the cake story is about.

chosemyshem wrote on 09 Jul 2024 20:19:

Although sometimes I get the feeling that everyone exaggerates a little to make their fellow feel a bit better (in due measure, a great thing), some of what you edited is eerily accurate...

Icebreaker wrote on 09 Jul 2024 20:05:

Wow sorry bro editing other people's posts is really addictive.

Thank you for the honest share. Sounds like you've done amazingly well.

If the streak count is motivating, keep it up. If it's demotivating, then forget about it.

Hatzlacha and keep on trucking!

Icebreaker wrote on 09 Jul 2024 20:05:

Thank you for sharing. 
Don't want to put words in his mouth, but no one gets to tell anyone else how easy or hard something is.
Perhaps what he meant was that you have an objectively simpler solution, vis-a-vis you got 500 days under your belt and with perhaps a minor bump in the road, you're already very much doing it. Give yourself a lot of credit and do both. Stay here AND kick the habit for good 
Hatzlacha

eerie wrote on 25 Jun 2024 16:05:

Aight here goes intro pt. 1: I'm a single yeshiva bochur not yet in shidduchim, FFB. I may be typical but... [In other words, although it could be most people on this site are like me (for sure our type don't post on the forum), and GYE does cater to the whole spectrum, from my experience I feel like I'm the waldo in the crowd, whatever. If you're in a similar situation feel free to pm me.] I struggled with P & M for a bunch of years and only had one really good streak (500 or so days, worded as such bec. any streak even one day is amazing) I've spoken to hhm twice and picked up a thing or 451 about how we should look at our victories and how don't focus on the schar v'onesh aspect along with many other interesting tidbits on the sugya. (For more on my mehalech, read my thread under "what works for me" called road to 500 (not clickbait)) I guess you could say I became addicted to the stuff/feeling at a tender age and lost sensitivity to the extent that I used every rationalization under the sun to not be bothered by the fact that I was oiver issurei chamuros almost daily, for years. Sigh. New meaning to "נעשית לו ההיתר" was achieved. One day corona hit and I was tempted to kick the habit which I did temporarily (for a couple of months, total stop to all problematic behavior a.k.a. P & M, that was the extent of my issue, BH) and then I fell and had some short streaks before my big streak and now I had to restart and I'm at day 8. A compliment from hhm (who doesn't get one when they call?) to me was that I basically was in a great place, I had the components necessary for REAL change etc (k, maybe I had a fall...) and what struck me was that he kinda said that he thinks from his (albeit not-so-detailed) perspective on my struggle that "I have it soooo much easier" comparatively to some other guys who he deals with and that really has me thinking: either I should get off the site, or kick this habit for good bec. what's my excuse gonna be??    (I hope to choose the latter option)

@baalteshuvawannabee, welcome, and well said.
Have you ever read or listened to Gabor Maté's work?
He speaks a lot on the subject of addiction and how's it's not the problem but rather the perceived solution.