halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:

This is a great question for a rabbi. I'm not capable of calculating if a massage parlor every x days is more favorable in G-d's eyes than porn every y days. It's also a good question for an addiction specialist. Dov's definition of an addiction is a pattern and a progression - which I think means you find yourself repeatedly acting out and in progressively worse ways. Other people have different definitions.

I think the only person really capable of answering the question though is . . . you.

Do you feel like a move to acting out in person is a new and more dangerous level that you have progressed to? Do you see yourself potentially doing other, even more dangerous, things you never would have imagined doing? Do you feel out of control and that you need to act out? Or do you think that it was truly somehow a one time thing that will never happen again (okay a two-time thing but surely it won't happen a third time)?

The good news is that you were also right and it's not such a relevant question. Where you are holding now is mostly only relevant to the extent it teaches you what tools you need to use to get to where you want to be. If this is a manifestation of addictive behavior the tool you might want to use is SA.

halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:

You are fighting on a more dangerous front.   Keep fighting.  

thompson wrote on 20 Aug 2024 14:50:

Reb P!

If I may say, I don’t really understand your point.

If porn porn usage would be equal to the other pleasures in life, such as hiking etc, where there’s a cost for pleasure, a price as you call it, than there would not be much of a market for people who are desperately trying to stop. 

Rather, it is because the porn addict is using porn and even while porning and masturbating, he is simultaneously shaking with agony, wishing he wouldn’t be doing this and hating himself for it. 

Because it’s a drug. And when anything can be used as a drug, it becomes addictive and dangerous. Overeating oneself towards a heart attack can kind of play out the same way, although the dopamine high is not the same as porn. 

So it may be less about pleasure and its price and more about getting or not getting that high. 

Does this make any sense at all? Maybe time for another coffee!

Good morning HMT!

Thank you for very clearly and beautifully articulating how you feel during the “off times”.

What I meant to point out is that there’s a difference between working some kind of modality of recovery, whatever that may be, (whether by constantly keeping yourself clear about your goals to fight the YH, The Battle of the Generation etc, connecting to others etc, or working the 12 steps) versus kind of floating forward, not feeling much motivation per se, which feels more like the issue is in dormancy, or “dry drunk” in SA terminology. 

Even if there’s no sense of euphoria (you’re absolutely correct, not everyone experiences that) there’s still a certain state of mind that comes along with recovery. I’m working on this too, and have come to recognize the difference. 

As part of the cycle of addiction, we can sometimes be clean for a little while by kind of floating forward. But it’s still eating away inside of you…and than, bam! It comes out again, and again, sometimes in even worse manifestations.

There’s clearly been a progression, going from online to in person. Progression of the risks you’re willing to take. So while you may not be more addicted than others who are doing only online stuff, nevertheless your risk tolerance is increasing, which can be quite alarming to say the least.

Reading Dov’s posts has helped me a ton in trying to understand what the difference is…perhaps you can benefit from this as well. Ever read his stuff?

Thank you YKW for your response. I'm not 100% sure what your two options are. When you say "holding your breath", do you mean that it felt hard? That I was having urges that I needed to control and deal with? Most definitely. A part of my issue is that in my mind I know that this is terrible but feel detached from feeling the terrible'ness of it. Obviously, the 1st step to recovery is wanting to change. I know all the reasons to change but am struggling to feel them. So, although it felt good to be sober during those 60 days, I can't say I was feeling this tremendous euphoria that I've seen people here describe when they are freed from their addiction. This is obviously a byproduct   of  my lack of feeling how terrible my situation was. (If a person knows he's a slave but doesn't feel like a slave, he's not going to feel freedom when his slavery ends.) When you say "working on having clarity that you are living a sober life" what do you mean? By reading up on the tremendous ma'ala of living a sober life and about how life with this addiction isn't a life? By repeating to myself "I am hereby sober!"? Please don't misunderstand me, I don't mean to be sarcastic. I just want to understand what you mean?

healingsquirrel71 wrote on 21 Aug 2024 05:08:

One step at a time. It is amazing that you have taken steps to overcome porn addiction and that you signed up to GYE. It is worth doing the Flight to Freedom program and the 90 day chart. There is a book called The Battle of the Generation that speaks about how to overcome porn addiction from a Jewish standpoint. Take a look at the book and see whether it speaks to you. You can download it over here:
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation
There is an audiobook and a download button at the end of the page. If it doesn't speak to you then I guess you will have to break free without it.

Are you dealing with any other sexual struggles aside for P&M? If yes, it would be advisable to specify them without going into the little details that can be triggering to others so we can help you. People have come here after going to massage parlors and calling sex lines and many other things so no matter what you are dealing with someone else has already posted about it.

Each one of us on GYE is beloved by Hashem and he takes pleasure in every small step that we take in the right direction. Equally important and more beneficial is to know what we are losing out in our day to day lives on a personal non-spiritual level by watching porn. You will hear more about that in the Flight to Freedom program but I wanted to point out that becoming clean isn't just for spiritual reasons. It is a necessity for our regular healthy living as well. Wishing you success on your journey. Welcome aboard. Continue posting and sharing and make friends.

smokey wrote on 21 Aug 2024 03:25:

Smokey, this is painful to read!!!

Why are you feeling a low desire to get married while you claim to desperately crave “female love”? 

Marriage brings precisely that, along with so much more…I’m just trying to understand what seems to be a bit of a paradox?

In any case, it sounds really rough for you…hang in there!

healingsquirrel71 wrote on 21 Aug 2024 00:17:

Hey, good for you for waking up for your slumber! Youve come in contact with your true inner holy self, that wants to be free of all things distancing itself from hashem. Keep on listening to him. What do you mean by not frum anymore?

Hey heyThis is my safe place to vent and honestly I'm going to take advantage of it right nowI'm pretty frustrated and stressed out and I'm going to highlight that.For context I'm a type 1 diabetic and I have celiac disease meaning I have to eat gluten free, and I struggle tremendously with ADHD, keeping up with being consistent, and doing the things I know are so important for my life but take so much effort (I know everyone struggles with this-you don't have anything special, I don't care I'm here to vent!)I've struggled tremendously my whole life with staying true to myself and creating a life full of meaning, I've been to years of therapy and coaching and I shteiged tremendously but I'm still here struggling.I'm honestly sick and tired with the struggle of lifeI know I need to exercise to let out my loads of energy I have, and to help me stay motivated and focused on life, I know I have to reach out to friends and mentors ( that I bh have ) when Im feeling low, when I feel like I need love ( by the way female love means nobody gets emotions like females, nobody can say I get you and I feel you like a female You just can't compare the emotional self of females to the rational logical male)but it's just to hard even though I know why I don't want to act out or masturbate, but the need for a dopamine hit is just so strong, and I just act out,I know I need to journal and write down my wins of the day so I can feel good about myselfit sucks that I have to create so many freaking boundaries to A. Not be addicted to my phone B. To not access inappropriate contentThat means getting rid of WhatsApp, no images on Google maps, NO YouTube or access to any social media on my laptop, deleted Spotify from my phone (which I love , NF is my role model and gives me validation that no one else can ever give) because there is inappropriate tracks that I struggle with, I freaking turned my life upside down and I still struggle, to not masturbate, to exercise properly, to learn consistently, to be fully in control of my diabetes and not eat so much carbs, to be in touch with myself by meditating and journalingI feel like there's to much I need to do in life to get it in control and honestly maybe I'm not capable of doing these stuff ( there were points of my life I was doing all these stuff and I felt so good about myself and loved life) but now I'm just so not motivated, it's like I see what I need to do but I'm just not down, I barely even believe in myself, right now knowing all the hard work it will take to get married I have such a low desire to get married, Im craving connection don't get me wrong but I don't know what I will do in marriage with my frequent highs and lows of life, don't tell me to accept the situation because I'm NOT accepting of my situation now, I'm not "loving what is" im just not down for the crap and hardships of life!!!!!!!!

Tired, frustrated and unmotivated to continue fighting the battle of life

Smokey

Hey HMT! Welcome to the forums, may it be with hatzlacha. 

All questions aside about the YH and what is worse religiously…I’d love it if you could please fill in at least some of the missing details. 

How did those 60 days of staying away from porn feel? Were you “white knuckling”? Meaning, were you working on having clarity that you are living a sober life worth living (for whatever reason you may have) a life where lust doesn’t control your thoughts and actions all day…or were you holding your breath under the water?

If you were holding your breath, it would possibly explain why you exploded, even in worse fashion. Many true addicts here have had the same experience. Stay away from one thing and fall flat on your face even uglier with the next…

There’s a lot to learn here about how you can move forward, whether with ”fighting the YH” method, or SA. Look around and you’ll find your place! 

Hi everyone! I'm really impressed with the oilam here and wish I had the same burning desire to get out of this as they do (hence the username). Quick synopsis of my situation: I struggled with inappropriate stuff online, on and off for the past 3 years. Around 3 months ago I had a his'oirrerus to quit and BH have not been any of those cursed sites since. Sounds amazing, right?.................. Wrong. After around 60 days of being clean, and being oimed b'nisayon, I had an extremely stressful day and found myself feeling those old urges extremely  strongly. But I had made up my mind that I was never going back to my old online haunts. To make a long story short, I ended up visiting a massage parlor for the first time in my life..BAM! (Don't really have a better way to express the feeling) Picked myself up and managed to make it 45 days clean....and once again BAM (Not as bad as 1st time, but bad). So here I am back on my feet..not giving up..but obviously not doing great.
Now I know from being around on the site that many of you will not like the following question, but here it is anyways: Is my current situation in which I am off of online stuff but dealing with in person stuff worse or better than my previous situation? Which of the two situations is worse: both from a religious standpoint and from an addiction standpoint? (Please do not respond with a mussar shmooze about "Who cares you pervert! They are both terrible!". I understand that they are both terrible. I'm just trying to understand my matzav vis a vis my battle with the YH, have I improved? Gotten worse? Or basically stayed the same?)

Hi everyone. Wow, a lot has changed since I first found out about this site many years ago. I tried to fight against porn addiction but gave up for the past few years. It was easier to pretend that it is ok and that I don't have a problem. Since then it is shocking how far I've fallen. But I want to believe Teshuva is possible. It is funny, because I am not even really Frum anymore. Never the less, it is time to embark on the journey of quitting porn. I hope you can still accept me and help me out. 



Since I came out of denial earlier this summer, the most I've managed is two weeks. Lately its been more like 4 days at a time. Still an improvement over multiple times every day, but I'm hoping I can get to a good long stretch. Yom Kippur coming up is good motivation. Looking forward to hearing from people.  

This forum is awesome, wish I tapped into it sooner

I read it as well!You are quite the impressive young man and I’m sure you’ll get very far here! Stick around, make some friends and feel the wholesome warmth of the forum. 

Looking forward to getting to know you!
Muttel

jmyers99 wrote on 20 Aug 2024 12:24:

Well, I just read it as well!!
What A Post!
Your journey seems to have led you through many rough spots. Here's to the life you want to live and the way you want to live it!
Hatzlocha!!