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22 Aug 2024 15:24
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proudyungerman
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Muttel wrote on 20 Aug 2024 13:17:
I read it as well!  Warning: Spoiler!can you believe it??? Warning: Spoiler! You thought no one would care enough about you to read through the whole thing….. well, I have news for you….. Warning: Spoiler! We care about you a whole lot!!!!! You are quite the impressive young man and I’m sure you’ll get very far here! Stick around, make some friends and feel the wholesome warmth of the forum.
Looking forward to getting to know you!
Muttel
Just gonna echo this response, especially the spoiler...
KOMT!
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22 Aug 2024 14:12
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thompson
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chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2024 20:12:
thompson wrote on 21 Aug 2024 17:11:
youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 12:01:
thompson wrote on 20 Aug 2024 14:50:
thompson wrote on 19 Aug 2024 18:41:
I enjoy the summer - the heat notwithstanding.
I'm cool with winter - throw on another layer.
I take long strolls in the forest - to heck with you flying pests.
I drink coffee - this goes without saying.
Yet somehow, porn is in a special category.
Can't live with it, can't live without it.
And so, the pendulum swings.
Rereading my post, I don't see why I was so perplexed.
None of the enjoyments are perfect, yet I still pay the price and do them.
Why should porn be different?
Add this line: I watch porn, even if it leaves me feeling empty
Duh.
As I'm writing this, I found a distinction.
The other enjoyments have a temporary price for a lasting reward, so I put up with price. If a hike would only be enjoyable for the duration of the trek itself and then I'd be left with nothing but pain and misery, I doubt I'd venture out too often.
Ah, so the question on porn is back. Warning: Spoiler! But as I heard from a Rabbi (in a different context): You don't die from a question.
Reb P!
If I may say, I don’t really understand your point.
If porn porn usage would be equal to the other pleasures in life, such as hiking etc, where there’s a cost for pleasure, a price as you call it, than there would not be much of a market for people who are desperately trying to stop.
Rather, it is because the porn addict is using porn and even while porning and masturbating, he is simultaneously shaking with agony, wishing he wouldn’t be doing this and hating himself for it.
Because it’s a drug. And when anything can be used as a drug, it becomes addictive and dangerous. Overeating oneself towards a heart attack can kind of play out the same way, although the dopamine high is not the same as porn.
So it may be less about pleasure and its price and more about getting or not getting that high.
Does this make any sense at all? Maybe time for another coffee!
It makes almost too much sense, and it's definitely time for another coffee.
Excellent points.
To be precise:
When a person makes a choice to pay a certain price for a pleasure, because he deems that the payout is worth the cost, he is behaving reasonably.
When the compulsion to the payout causes a man to pay a price that he knows and feels is too high, yet he cannot stop himself, ‘tis not barter. It is slavery.
Thank you, Brother Oigen, for a) citing a work I'm completely unfamiliar with but sounds as dark and sweet as molasses, and b) adding another layer of clarity to Voldermort's already lucid distinction.
I mean it.
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22 Aug 2024 14:08
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jmyers99
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I'll bite. But one immense caveat is that you (as a BT, working etc) will very likely not be dating the uber sheltered bais yaakov girls many of us married. So a girl who has been exposed to more of the world will be more likely to treat it as just a problem to work on instead of an earth-shattering filth. This isn't a universal rule, as even the least sheltered girl may feel cheated on by their husband's porn use. It really depends on the person.
Totally agree here, I imagine my wife will be more "worldly" and aware of the challenge of our generation, but it will definitely still be hurtful no matter what.
And that's with catching just a "one time" looking at another woman - not catching my raging porn addiction. Meaning, out in the street? If so, wow, all the more so the P problem...
If you want advice, stop now. If you can't stop now, it really depends on your specific situation what you should do and you should speak to a rabbi who knows you and you can be honest with.
Definitely, I agree, this is my primary avodah right now above all else. I really want to start dating by this pesach, and if I really work on this by then, I'll have enough data to feel comfortable embarking on the next chapter, G-d willing having "left" this "mitzrayim".
I know flare ups can happen any time and it's a life long battle, but I want a long time feeling free and having invested a lot in growth beforehand.
I also see P as just a surface level issue of something deeper, which is also why I'm so motivated to stop. I feel that if I can do the inner middos work to grow from this, I'll fix the P issue and come out a healthier person, better suited for marriage and family.
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22 Aug 2024 13:49
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chosemyshem
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jmyers99 wrote on 22 Aug 2024 11:44:
The thing is, I really don't want that to be me. I want to handle this before I start dating and get married. I'm so nervous about what this could do to the health of my marriage. Even if she doesn't find out, I'm still scared of what it will do to the relationship. Practically speaking, it may lower my drive to be with her, or cause imagery to pop up in my head etc. when I'm with her. On a deeper level, it will prevent me from having a deeper connection with her that I want to have. And if she finds out, that's even worse, as she'll likely feel cheated on in a certain sense, so upset, what's wrong with me, why am I not good enough, etc. and I don't want to cause her that kind of pain.
. . .
I'm interested in people here sharing their perspective on the impact it's had on their marriage. I'd likely relate best to younger men who are in their first few years of marriage, but I'm open to anyone's opinion here.
Specifically, I have the following questions:
- What's the severity of your problem/use (so I can gauge relative to mine)
- Does your wife know about the problem? Does she know the full extent of the problem?
- How has this impacted your relationship with your wife?
- If she knows, is she supportive/understanding or it causes strife?
- What advice would you give to someone in my shoes?
I'll bite. But one immense caveat is that you (as a BT, working etc) will very likely not be dating the uber sheltered bais yaakov girls many of us married. So a girl who has been exposed to more of the world will be more likely to treat it as just a problem to work on instead of an earth-shattering filth. This isn't a universal rule, as even the least sheltered girl may feel cheated on by their husband's porn use. It really depends on the person.
My wife caught the tip of the iceberg and was very, extremely, deeply hurt.
Not mad. But very hurt.
And that's with catching just a "one time" looking at another woman - not catching my raging porn addiction.
I would equivocate the pain of that moment to losing a minor limb.
That's the pain of being exposed. It wouldn't be helpful to share how it impacted my relationship since every person and every relationship is so different.
If you want advice, stop now. If you can't stop now, it really depends on your specific situation what you should do and you should speak to a rabbi who knows you and you can be honest with.
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22 Aug 2024 04:46
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AddictNoMore
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On my first day on site it appears there are mostly younger people trying to break their addictions. And that is great to break it as early as you can . But for myself I feel like I built such a large and long mess how can I ever succeed in breaking my bad habit at this stage in my life . It’s as if porn is part of my core essence . How do you get rid of a 44 year old habit ?
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21 Aug 2024 23:36
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chaimoigen
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chosemyshem wrote on 21 Aug 2024 21:08:
chaimoigen wrote on 21 Aug 2024 20:36:
I think that filter-poking is a true expression of a soul in conflict. Screaming “אוי לי מיוצרי אוי לי מיצרי״” at the same time.
So, yes- filter-poking may be intellectually stupid. But I think it’s not coming from a stupid place. Because the conflict in your Neshoma means that the Turkey Slug King is very much IN THE GAME.
maybe this is just drivel that I made up once upon a time to make myself feel better.
It's hard to know.
Someone once said they used to go to massage parlors but they always made sure the woman was not Jewish. Because G-d forbid they get involved with an eishes ish.
And I don't want to take away from the undeniable fact that there's some benefit in that. Some nekuda of self control, some schar for avoiding an aveirah.
But that's on Hashem's cheshbon. On the person's cheshbon, that's basically retarded.
You're doing horrible things and you're worried about this random small nekudah? You have no life, your entire life is dedicated to serving your lust, you're slowly but surely sacrificing your humanity on the alter of Aphrodite, and this arbitrary halachic line is what you're hanging on to??
You're like a guy who's likely got cancer and you got to the doctor because you're worried about an ankle sprain. Yeah an ankle sprain is annoying. But, like, why aren't you talking about your cancer that will kill you? (Dov's metaphor, and the story and general take on the massage parlor guy is from him too.)
And we all do this. We throw up these arbitrary red lines. I do this but not that, or not on that day, or not with that person. And that's fine, and saying that has no value is false.
The unfortunate nature of lust is it eventually sucks everything into its gaping maw, and that red line will almost inevitably shatter, but having the red line is undeniably not a problem and has real benefit.
It's when we point to the red line and say, "well, at least I didn't cross the line" that is so sick.
Who cares if you didn't cross that arbitrary line. That's not a lifeline pulling you back on shore, it's a red herring floating by as you keep on drowning. And pointing to that red herring is only a distraction that is stopping you from calling from help as you slide further into the whirlpool.
Except not. Because sometimes it's not a red herring. Sometimes growth is slow and steady and you can slowly cut back and crawl back to shore; broken, battered, but alive.
And externally the red line that's a lifesaver and the red line that's a distraction can look the same. Even internally it's nearly impossible to tell them apart.
So you have to know. But it's hard to know.
I get your point. But your analogy is not apt.
Im a big fan of Dov’s posts, but Im not sure the “take no prisoners” straight-at-you cutthroat attack on the the lust-fanatic is appropriate here.
A filter-poker is not the same as the guy who is going to massage parlors and making frum distinctions (usually). It’s more similar to the guy who notices every time he passes the strip club and cranes his neck but never stops and goes in.
I think it’s foolish and wrong to paint everyone who has any problem with lust with the same tar-and-feather brush. No, a guy who pokes his filter but doesn’t uninstall it is not a simpering, lifeless, completely out-of-control lust addict who is just fooling himself. Nay.
If there is no difference of degree, then we have lost perspective.
I respect the hell out of Dov, but don’t tell me that a sip of lust while you are working on yourself is the same as a ten gallons dive. (Yes, I know that an addict is one who can’t take even a sip. That’s irrelevant here).
I think I understand the point he means to make. It’s valid, but not to the extent that it destroys compassion, understanding, and perspective.
If is sound mad, I am.
I don’t want someone (you) convincing you that you’re worthless until you’re totally clean. And any compassionate thought to the contrary is that red herring in your post. Hell no. A thousand times nay.
You’re my friend and I believe that you can get there one step at a time. Whichever step system you choose to use. You shall choose your steps to freedom, cleanliness, hope and joy.
Im chaimoigen and i think you are worth more than you are thinking you are.
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21 Aug 2024 20:12
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chaimoigen
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thompson wrote on 21 Aug 2024 17:11:
youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 12:01:
thompson wrote on 20 Aug 2024 14:50:
thompson wrote on 19 Aug 2024 18:41:
I enjoy the summer - the heat notwithstanding.
I'm cool with winter - throw on another layer.
I take long strolls in the forest - to heck with you flying pests.
I drink coffee - this goes without saying.
Yet somehow, porn is in a special category.
Can't live with it, can't live without it.
And so, the pendulum swings.
Rereading my post, I don't see why I was so perplexed.
None of the enjoyments are perfect, yet I still pay the price and do them.
Why should porn be different?
Add this line: I watch porn, even if it leaves me feeling empty
Duh.
As I'm writing this, I found a distinction.
The other enjoyments have a temporary price for a lasting reward, so I put up with price. If a hike would only be enjoyable for the duration of the trek itself and then I'd be left with nothing but pain and misery, I doubt I'd venture out too often.
Ah, so the question on porn is back. Warning: Spoiler! But as I heard from a Rabbi (in a different context): You don't die from a question.
Reb P!
If I may say, I don’t really understand your point.
If porn porn usage would be equal to the other pleasures in life, such as hiking etc, where there’s a cost for pleasure, a price as you call it, than there would not be much of a market for people who are desperately trying to stop.
Rather, it is because the porn addict is using porn and even while porning and masturbating, he is simultaneously shaking with agony, wishing he wouldn’t be doing this and hating himself for it.
Because it’s a drug. And when anything can be used as a drug, it becomes addictive and dangerous. Overeating oneself towards a heart attack can kind of play out the same way, although the dopamine high is not the same as porn.
So it may be less about pleasure and its price and more about getting or not getting that high.
Does this make any sense at all? Maybe time for another coffee!
It makes almost too much sense, and it's definitely time for another coffee.
Excellent points.
To be precise:
When a person makes a choice to pay a certain price for a pleasure, because he deems that the payout is worth the cost, he is behaving reasonably.
When the compulsion to the payout causes a man to pay a price that he knows and feels is too high, yet he cannot stop himself, ‘tis not barter. It is slavery.
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21 Aug 2024 20:09
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healingsquirrel71
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One step at a time. It is amazing that you have taken steps to overcome porn addiction and that you signed up to GYE. It is worth doing the Flight to Freedom program and the 90 day chart. There is a book called The Battle of the Generation that speaks about how to overcome porn addiction from a Jewish standpoint. Take a look at the book and see whether it speaks to you. You can download it over here:
https://guardyoureyes.com/ebooks/item/the-battle-of-the-generation
There is an audiobook and a download button at the end of the page. If it doesn't speak to you then I guess you will have to break free without it.
Are you dealing with any other sexual struggles aside for P&M? If yes, it would be advisable to specify them without going into the little details that can be triggering to others so we can help you. People have come here after going to massage parlors and calling sex lines and many other things so no matter what you are dealing with someone else has already posted about it.
Each one of us on GYE is beloved by Hashem and he takes pleasure in every small step that we take in the right direction. Equally important and more beneficial is to know what we are losing out in our day to day lives on a personal non-spiritual level by watching porn. You will hear more about that in the Flight to Freedom program but I wanted to point out that becoming clean isn't just for spiritual reasons. It is a necessity for our regular healthy living as well. Wishing you success on your journey. Welcome aboard. Continue posting and sharing and make friends.
Thanks for your reply! Yes, I have started the flight to freedom program and really like some of the tools I found, like urge surfing. I have started skimming battle of the generation, there is some interesting stuff in there for sure.
I am not dealing with any sexual struggles other than Porn, but just that by itself is a huge problem for me.
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21 Aug 2024 18:45
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redfaced
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hundredbrachos wrote on 21 Aug 2024 18:27:
Day 22:
Tuesday
After posting Monday update regarding on how do I combat my body/mind telling me to give- I was told by a couple of gye users that I need to review my motivation on why I want to quit.
There are many reasons why I want to quit and I list some of the important on this post 1. This is not who I was in the past, this not who I am in the present, and this not who I want to be in the future- I do not want to have this problem. I know having this problem is a sickness that needs to be treated. The urges that I am experiencing are symptoms from the underlying disease which is diagnosed as Porn addiction”. 2. Every time I think of how it will affect my wife and kid that their father has this issue, it makes me shake and have emotional breakdown thinking of how they will look at me. I do not want my family to go through this. 3. I was not brought down to this world for this problem- I have mission to accomplish and this is in my way. I have pushed myself over the years to quit and I has some streaks and over the past year, I would fall about once a week. Link to story that I read that will shake you. guardyoureyes.com/articles/stories/item/where-it-all-leads-2?category_id=13
Quite the earthquake, this story is. All it takes is one second to mess up your life forever .
Shem's story A Taste Of Death shook me up too .
Give it a read
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21 Aug 2024 18:27
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hundredbrachos
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Day 22:
Tuesday
After posting Monday update regarding on how do I combat my body/mind telling me to give- I was told by a couple of gye users that I need to review my motivation on why I want to quit.
There are many reasons why I want to quit and I list some of the important on this post 1. This is not who I was in the past, this not who I am in the present, and this not who I want to be in the future- I do not want to have this problem. I know having this problem is a sickness that needs to be treated. The urges that I am experiencing are symptoms from the underlying disease which is diagnosed as Porn addiction”. 2. Every time I think of how it will affect my wife and kid that their father has this issue, it makes me shake and have emotional breakdown thinking of how they will look at me. I do not want my family to go through this. 3. I was not brought down to this world for this problem- I have mission to accomplish and this is in my way. I have pushed myself over the years to quit and I has some streaks and over the past year, I would fall about once a week. Link to story that I read that will shake you. guardyoureyes.com/articles/stories/item/where-it-all-leads-2?category_id=13
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21 Aug 2024 17:54
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thompson
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halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:
Hi everyone! I'm really impressed with the oilam here and wish I had the same burning desire to get out of this as they do (hence the username). Quick synopsis of my situation: I struggled with inappropriate stuff online, on and off for the past 3 years. Around 3 months ago I had a his'oirrerus to quit and BH have not been any of those cursed sites since. Sounds amazing, right?.................. Wrong. After around 60 days of being clean, and being oimed b'nisayon, I had an extremely stressful day and found myself feeling those old urges extremely strongly. But I had made up my mind that I was never going back to my old online haunts. To make a long story short, I ended up visiting a massage parlor for the first time in my life..BAM! (Don't really have a better way to express the feeling) Picked myself up and managed to make it 45 days clean....and once again BAM (Not as bad as 1st time, but bad). So here I am back on my feet..not giving up..but obviously not doing great.
Now I know from being around on the site that many of you will not like the following question, but here it is anyways: Is my current situation in which I am off of online stuff but dealing with in person stuff worse or better than my previous situation? Which of the two situations is worse: both from a religious standpoint and from an addiction standpoint? (Please do not respond with a mussar shmooze about "Who cares you pervert! They are both terrible!". I understand that they are both terrible. I'm just trying to understand my matzav vis a vis my battle with the YH, have I improved? Gotten worse? Or basically stayed the same?)
I'd say it depends.
P.S. "Bam" was expressed perfectly, no need to apologize for it.
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21 Aug 2024 17:11
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thompson
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youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 12:01:
thompson wrote on 20 Aug 2024 14:50:
thompson wrote on 19 Aug 2024 18:41:
I enjoy the summer - the heat notwithstanding.
I'm cool with winter - throw on another layer.
I take long strolls in the forest - to heck with you flying pests.
I drink coffee - this goes without saying.
Yet somehow, porn is in a special category.
Can't live with it, can't live without it.
And so, the pendulum swings.
Rereading my post, I don't see why I was so perplexed.
None of the enjoyments are perfect, yet I still pay the price and do them.
Why should porn be different?
Add this line: I watch porn, even if it leaves me feeling empty
Duh.
As I'm writing this, I found a distinction.
The other enjoyments have a temporary price for a lasting reward, so I put up with price. If a hike would only be enjoyable for the duration of the trek itself and then I'd be left with nothing but pain and misery, I doubt I'd venture out too often.
Ah, so the question on porn is back. Warning: Spoiler! But as I heard from a Rabbi (in a different context): You don't die from a question.
Reb P!
If I may say, I don’t really understand your point.
If porn porn usage would be equal to the other pleasures in life, such as hiking etc, where there’s a cost for pleasure, a price as you call it, than there would not be much of a market for people who are desperately trying to stop.
Rather, it is because the porn addict is using porn and even while porning and masturbating, he is simultaneously shaking with agony, wishing he wouldn’t be doing this and hating himself for it.
Because it’s a drug. And when anything can be used as a drug, it becomes addictive and dangerous. Overeating oneself towards a heart attack can kind of play out the same way, although the dopamine high is not the same as porn.
So it may be less about pleasure and its price and more about getting or not getting that high.
Does this make any sense at all? Maybe time for another coffee!
It makes almost too much sense, and it's definitely time for another coffee.
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21 Aug 2024 14:55
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redfaced
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youknowwho wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:52:
siyatta wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:39:
Welcome to a group where you can safely share your experiences, doubts, struggles and keep growing. I can totally relate to your question but I believe the approach is wrong... Instead of focusing on how you fell, and which way is better to fall, I would focus on how long you went without falling, 45 days is great! Let's work on 90 now. If you can do 45 you can do 90, it's the same process, the beginning is hard but once you get past that, which you've done already, and change certain habits, it gets easier... You got this!
Respectfully asking you to clarify... " 45 days is great", when a person has twice crossed another red line in what may be a serious progression of his addiction, taking serious in-person risks......what is great about that and what does " you got this" mean?
Is this how you think he will get the help he needs?
Please don't mind my bluntness, I'm just an anonymous schmuck on the internet and I may need another coffee.
Not so anonymous Voldy . Not so anonymous at all
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21 Aug 2024 14:52
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youknowwho
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siyatta wrote on 21 Aug 2024 14:39:
Welcome to a group where you can safely share your experiences, doubts, struggles and keep growing. I can totally relate to your question but I believe the approach is wrong... Instead of focusing on how you fell, and which way is better to fall, I would focus on how long you went without falling, 45 days is great! Let's work on 90 now. If you can do 45 you can do 90, it's the same process, the beginning is hard but once you get past that, which you've done already, and change certain habits, it gets easier... You got this!
Respectfully asking you to clarify... " 45 days is great", when a person has twice crossed another red line in what may be a serious progression of his addiction, taking serious in-person risks......what is great about that and what does " you got this" mean?
Is this how you think he will get the help he needs?
Please don't mind my bluntness, I'm just an anonymous schmuck on the internet and I may need another coffee.
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21 Aug 2024 13:54
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chosemyshem
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halevaimetoo wrote on 21 Aug 2024 01:22:
Around 3 months ago I had a his'oirrerus to quit and BH have not been any of those cursed sites since. After around 60 days of being clean, and being oimed b'nisayon, I had an extremely stressful day and found myself feeling those old urges extremely strongly, I ended up visiting a massage parlor for the first time in my life..\managed to make it 45 days clean....and once again BAM
Is my current situation in which I am off of online stuff but dealing with in person stuff worse or better than my previous situation? Which of the two situations is worse: both from a religious standpoint and from an addiction standpoint? (Please do not respond with a mussar shmooze about "Who cares you pervert! They are both terrible!". I understand that they are both terrible. I'm just trying to understand my matzav vis a vis my battle with the YH, have I improved? Gotten worse? Or basically stayed the same?)
This is a great question for a rabbi. I'm not capable of calculating if a massage parlor every x days is more favorable in G-d's eyes than porn every y days. It's also a good question for an addiction specialist. Dov's definition of an addiction is a pattern and a progression - which I think means you find yourself repeatedly acting out and in progressively worse ways. Other people have different definitions.
I think the only person really capable of answering the question though is . . . you.
Do you feel like a move to acting out in person is a new and more dangerous level that you have progressed to? Do you see yourself potentially doing other, even more dangerous, things you never would have imagined doing? Do you feel out of control and that you need to act out? Or do you think that it was truly somehow a one time thing that will never happen again (okay a two-time thing but surely it won't happen a third time)?
The good news is that you were also right and it's not such a relevant question. Where you are holding now is mostly only relevant to the extent it teaches you what tools you need to use to get to where you want to be. If this is a manifestation of addictive behavior the tool you might want to use is SA.
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