I agree with both of these comments. Somebody who is on the level of spiritual fitness that the big book is aiming for should be able to have unfiltered internet without even having the craving to look at anything.

The fact on the ground however is that I don't know if I met anyone the whole time I was in SA who was free from lust. Even people that I met there who had been sober 30 years still suffered from lust cravings from time to time. Maybe thats due to being around ones wife or the availability and closeness of lust or maybe it's just they way we are wired physically or spiritually.

That is probably why many sponsors help their sponsees with techniques like noticing their triggers and learning to "let go" which in mindfulness would be similar to urge surfing.

Even given that there are going to be cravings with lust addiction I still agree with the big books point that  "any scheme of combating alcoholism which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is doomed to failure. If the alcoholic tries to shield himself he may succeed for a time, but he usually winds up with a bigger explosion than ever. We have tried these methods. These attempts to do the impossible have always failed."

Trying to escape triggers is not the solution because there will always be triggers for lust. The solution is to learn how to deal with the inevitable cravings. 

It would be so much easier to be on the level that many AA people get to where they just don't have cravings any more. It seems like in SA that is more of a long term goal. In the short term we probably have to be realistic about the fact that we are going to suffer from lust cravings and learn how to deal with them best, whether it be through surrendering them to Hashem or urge surfing.

I also saw on Shabbos the Pri Tzaddik asks "Why is parshas Mattos after the story of Bnos Midyan? What is the connection between that terrible story and the halachos of nedarim?

He answers that after the fall due to lust with the bnos Midyan which led to avoda zara. klal yisrael needed a powerful measure to protect from lust. This was nedarim. These allow us to build fences which have the full force of Torah law. 

These days my tafsic neder is one of the main factors which keeps me from acting out most of the time. Before that I used to act out almost every day with maybe a week or 2 of clean days here and there. At this point I am managing to stay clean  months and only acted out for a couple of days in between. Although what I want is to be free from acting out all the time and be able to deal with my cravings.

This is the way I look at it the tafsic acts as a substitution to 2nd gear for me. I don't manage this all the time but this would be the ideal for now. And that is why I am writing here. To try and get things clearer for myself ;-):

• In 1st gear I notice my cravings as they come up. What do they feel like in my body?  What are they trying to get me to do? and Why?
• In 2nd gear I decide that I am going to surf them out because lust is not going help anyways and its just going to make me feel worse afterwards and also I don't want to lose hundreds of $ because of my tafsic, also it's going to separate me from Hashem, at the time of doing the aveira.
• In 3rd gear I surf the craving using R.A.I.N and while doing so I daven to Hashem to take away the craving. I do this until the craving dissolves. I notice how even though the craving was very uncomfortable and I felt like I was dieing a little, if I don't act out I don't die and eventually the craving is gone and I am way happier than I would have been had I acted out.

grateful4life wrote on 15 Jul 2018 14:20:

In a nutshell she agreed that she has a problem and went to therapy for it. Didn't seem to help too much though...

mzl (I haven't figured out how to separate the quotes) - It definitely helps me not to have expectations. However, the problem is that being an addict when I have my wife being all interested and all is still at the very least a trigger. Even if I don't actually watch anything problematic it makes it much much harder to watch my eyes etc. 

Cordnoy - I try very much to put her first. Without going in to too many details whenever she isn't interested and we are together anyway it doesn't feel good at all. In fact it feels almost like rape even if she is willing (but not interested). You are most definitely right that this addiction boils down to anochiyus. Yet even with that said it feels like even if I totally overcome this struggle it won't make her more interested but I guess once it's not about me anymore then I won't care. To me that seems like an extremely high level and impossible for me to attain such lofty heights even with the "one day at a time" approach. By the way, I really took tons out from what I read from your threads. It's probably going to take me a good while to finish reading them though. I very much identify with many aspects of what you went through and I really appreciate you being there for someone else who could use the help. Thank you

JoyOfLife wrote on 13 Jul 2018 07:00:

You sound to me like you are in a good place because my b.s. gauge with you is very close to zero. Good for you.

I think what you need to do to get rid of that longing for p*** is to look at your life critically, like your life is there for you to enjoy. You can enjoy enlightened things like learning gemara, but either you enjoy your life or you don't. If you don't really like X don't deny it. Once you are able to look at it critically you can start making some changes so you like your new life better than the life that you have now, which you tolerated or designed with p*** in it. And thinking out of the box is hard work, and people around you can put up a lot of resistance. So you have your work cut out for you.

I think I understand what you're saying. Truth is that for me the probability of accessing open internet in my daily life is very unlikely. However, with that being said its almost certain that in the not so distant future there will be times when I will be sitting in front of a computer/phone with unfiltered internet. Besides that I feel that often time (BH its getting better) I have a ridiculously hard time with desire. Even if I don't have access to view inappropriate things I still desire it and sometimes it affects days of my life where I keep on thinking on how to get hold of some material/not being clean. I really want to be free of this addiction at the source and not just with the outward symptoms of actually viewing stuff

Got it now. Thanks. Someone else posted about reaching out to speak daily with a sponsor or partner. Did you try that route or winged it on your own? 
I don`t think my problem is resenting the success, rather perhaps getting complacent and letting my guard down.
How long did you struggle prior to this year? What was your level of addiction? 

JoyOfLife wrote on 12 Jul 2018 14:12:

We want and hunt the desirable food for our addiction.
Just to stop isn't enough. Just being clean is also not enough.
I'm in the same boat as you. I'm clean and sometimes for really long stretches,  but the desire for the evil never stopped or went away.

JoyOfLife wrote on 12 Jul 2018 14:12:

I think I have that problem too, but I don't think it's just me. I think everyone does. I can only be as smart, capable, sophisticated as the yetzer hara I have access to. I think this is why we daven not to be tested.

I have had no ability to use p*** for years because I am certain (from previous experience) that when I go use the internet to get turned on my computer will develop problems. The first time this happened the hard drive came to a very loud halt. That is the long-term reason I don't do p***, I want my computer to work.

That divine assistance is both an asset and a liability, because I am free of p*** but I am very weak in that area. If I got kidnapped and forced to watch 8mm p*** movies I'd probably go ahead (I imagine.)

But I can live with that because I think the other scenarios are unlikely. In your situation is accessing internet-capable computers unlikely, likely, or somewhat likely? If the answer is "somewhat likely" then you may have to make some changes in your life, to push the needle either to one side or the other. Then you can proceed to become very weak and very safe, or very strong (whether on your own or with a support group.)

I'm a married 28 year old with BH beautiful children. My first exposure to pornography was even before I had any desires - by a friends house. As I became older being that I had open internet I was curious and got hooked. Fast forward till now. Along the way there were plenty of ups and even more downs. I was embarrassed of my issue although contrary to what many people feel I felt that most guys have this problem so it wasn't such a major problem. Currently I have a top notch filter combined with accountability and can't really get around them. The major problem for me is that the second I have open internet access I know what I would do. I feel like an addict that can't drink because there is nothing to drink but in essence am still an addict. Its such a beracha to be truly free not just in body but also in mind. This is why I'm reaching out and trying to really break this addiction with others who have struggled and gone through this already/those who are still struggling. Any advice/chizuk goes a long way. (That wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. It took me months till I decided to post something here)

Alright, screw the 12 steps. 

You only need 2 IMHO.

1. Cultivate a rich social life.

2. Watch your addiction get a heck of a lot weaker (or dare I say it, disappear?).

Why does this work? I don't know really. It's like the video in Markz's signature says, the opposite of addiction is connection. 

I resisted this for a while. Why? I guess cause I wanted to find a solution that allowed me to be self-sufficient, one that would allow me to meet all my needs by myself.

I wanted to believe and know that if I was the only person left on earth, I would be alright, by myself. 

But seriously, I believe this actually. Get friends.

"But, Ihavestrength, I don't really know anyone!"

"That's ridiculous, everyone knows someone."

"But maybe they won't want to talk with me!" 

"There definitely will be people who won't want to talk to you. Find someone who will. This requires work!

Reach out to people and strengthen your network, get closer to people you already know, and try meeting new people." 

DISCLAIMER: Please take everything I'm writing with seven grains of salt. I write facetiously, but I only mean to express things that seem to be working for me. I'm not telling anyone what to do, cause frankly, this may be BS : ) So use at your own risk, and don't forget, always drink responsibly.

Buchurim in truth should not have phone altogether. Buchurim are meant to be removed from the world and only be involved in torah and avodah. The problem is, is that it became so normal for buchurim to have a phone that it's not recognized as a chisaron anymore. Now it's not recognized as a chisaron that buchurim have smartphones !?!??!?!? Some think the opposite that you can use a smartphone to help you learn. It's seen clearly that phones and especially smartphone disturbes buchurim from learning. That's besides the fact that alot of buchurim end up getting addicted to porn. (They get a filter, what one day they need it taken off for a bit and they fall. And once they fall once even when they put the filter back on they find a way to fall again and again..... its time for people to start listening to the psak of the rabbonim that you can only use internet if you need it for parnasa. And don't bring it into your house even with a filter. How can a person expect hashem to protect his family from the internet if he brings a computer in his house against the rabbonim? And if he buys his child a smartphone?????? Hashem might still protect the children because hashem is very merciful but don't put yourself and your family in a place of danger!!!! 

mzl wrote on 10 Jul 2018 14:27:

And perhaps one needs to be careful when contrastin' as well. Experience trumps all thinkin'.

Thank you for typing that, I have never read the big book.

However comparing going to a nude beach for a sex addict and going to a bar for an alcoholic is not really a logical comparison, because alcohol does not enter the drunk's system when he sees the bottle. So I think one has to be careful when drawing analogies from sex to substance abuse.

tiefster88 wrote on 10 Jul 2018 11:03:

Must be a different edition of the big book, or perhaps it's a different book altogether.

Godspeed!

I don't think you can control your emotions by paying attention to your emotions, but you can create different emotions than the ones you have created so far by paying attention to your inner thoughts, the ones that the untrained don't know are there. By the time you feel emotions it's too late to control them.

As far as the spiritual causes, those have to do with the opinions or positions that you have created over decades with your physical actions as well as reading, etc. that have to do with who's a good person and who is not (such as perfectionism to mention a well known one.) Those rules are even more difficult to crystallize out of your head and are what people refer to as longing, spiritual addictions etc. And also difficult to change without some skills.

As far the chemistry goes, it's well known now that the brain can manufacture chemicals as a result of its activity. The chemicals go away when the brain activity changes.

For sure SA is full of mindfulness. Very often sponsors will tell a sponsee to start noticing their triggers. Where does the big book ever worry about triggers? It says that you can go to bars with friends and don't need to worry because you will no longer have any cravings.

The main reason I want to surrender my desires to Hashem is because I think that certain addictions may be spiritual in nature rather than only chemical. Although paying attention to emotions can give oneself control over his emotions, still if there is a spiritual hunger that one is covering up with lust then that still needs to be fulfilled in some way. So the person will get other problems. Maybe addiction or maybe other symptomatic issues altogether.

Just learning how to control ones emotions with ones brain doesn't take care of why the person was reaching for that drug of choice in the first place. The person must be missing something. In my case being a Jew I would want to fill that with dveykus to Hashem which also seems to be something that worked for many alcoholics in AA in taking away their cravings for alcohol. I can tell that this is what I am lacking.