Day 20

Allright. Another Shabbos just flew by. Baruch Hashem nothing too bad came up.

I do feel that on these winter nights when Motzei Shabbos is pretty early I can pretty easily fall into the trap of just watching a movie or an episode of something. Just chilling around and wasting time. I need to figure out some strategy of productivity here. Maybe learn something light. "Ma shelibi chafeitz." The thing is, I am sometimes just not in the mood of learning. Motzei Shabbos is like one of those default chilling times for me. I know that learning has to be even without cheishek as well, but you know, without cheishek sometimes means no learning as well.

I don't feel like I am yet ready to work on eliminating movies etc. from my diet altogether although I know that it would probably help with the battle I am facing right now and it would do me a lot of good. It would also save me time and help me live more in reality. (Yes, whenever I watch something I kinda feel detached from reality. Contrast that to whenever I learn some gemorah I feel totally plugged into reality.) Another problem with movies is the question of how will I fill the time that I usually spend watching. To me watching is like a filler for certain moments in my day. I know that in its core it's empty, but I still do it because it's easy and it's a good filler. Even reading a book takes more effort. It is just easy to turn on the computer and have something playing and putting your mind close to 0%. Underneath it all, and I am not sure if I am right, I think that I partially am addicted to watching. I probably could stop if I really wanted to ( I hope so at least) I have done it before, but I really need the motivation for it.

My main goal now is just to be free of MB (do I really need to spell it out?). 
Eventually I do want to work on this aspect as well, but as all things in life, before learning how to run, you've gotta learn how to walk.

There is definitely more to discuss here, but it's getting late for me so I'll be leaving the rest for a different post.


Wishing all of you an amazing and clean week.

AM

I meant to use the phrase, "low level addict," in like manner to a description that I saw on GYE, 3-4 years ago, on the page where there were two chizuk email lists to choose from. I understood the phrase to refer to someone who only "acts out" on an infrequent basis, for a limited duration of time. Relatively speaking, it seems like a less serious addiction; yet, still problematic, especially, because it could get worse. Actually, I feel as if I am not really addicted, because I never crossed the line, where my conscience told me that if I view this or that, for a longer period of time I would get "addicted." Even so, I do not mean to diminish the "wrongness" of viewing inappropriate material on the Internet at all; I am "guilty," and should not even resort to viewing a single inappropriate photograph.

Hi there. Day 17 and B"H still clean.

I sometimes ask myself: what is it that is so great about being jewish? I sometimes envy the goyim. They are free. They don’t need to hold back from their lust. I sometimes say “halevai”. And even if they themselves realize that it’s bad because it might be addictive or whatnot, but they can afford to give in once in a while. We on the other hand strive to be ‘tahor’, pure and clean. Also, giving in to our lust has the potential to cause guilt and other bad feelings inside of us because we know that it’s bad on a ruchniyusdike level. Is that really so great?

It occasionally really gets me thinking. Why indeed is it better to not give in? Why are we better off than them? We can intuit that it’s better to be a yid than a goy, but why?

You might say that we are bnei melachim, princes, and that it doesn’t suit a prince to act on such a low level, to take delight in such low pleasures. But who says that I want to be that prince? Maybe I prefer the ‘simple life’, the easy way out?

When I confront myself asking this question, I find I need a solid answer, an answer that’ll satisfy. An idea that’ll make the fighting worth it. Not just on a rational level but also on an emotional one.

Even though I’m still looking for the ‘perfect’ answer, here are a few ideas that I find help me with this, but let me know what you think:

1.)    We all want pleasure. Every act of ours truly is motivated to some extent by pleasure. It could be the simple pleasure of eating a slice of pizza. It could be the pleasure of getting up early forgoing the pleasure of enjoying more sleep. And it could be the pleasure of connecting to Hashem through his torah and mitzvos. Hashem created the world for pleasure. And just like not all ice-cream flavors are created equal, so too, not all levels of pleasure are created equal. It’s true that sushi tastes great, but does that compare to the pleasure of loving and being loved. It’s true that listening to your favorite music is great, but does that substitute the pleasure of having a life filled with meaning. Pleasures come in different levels. Hashem wants us to have pleasure not just in olam haba but even in olam hazeh as well. The torah is there in part to help us not to get trapped in the lower levels of pleasure. It’s there so that we can focus on the pleasures that really matter. And it’s true that in order to get the higher levels of pleasure, we sometimes need to forgo the more immediate pleasure, but that too makes the pleasure that we have afterwards even greater. Lefum tzaarah agra.
We are princes. And just opting for the simple life out of choice is like giving up the fortune of a billionaire father for the lick of a lollipop. It just isn’t worth it.
(I once read an excellent piece by Rabbi Noach Weinberg on the five levels of pleasure in the book “what the angel taught you”. In my opinion, a must read!)
(One of the problems I face though is that even though I know that keeping a life full of mitzvos is truly the most pleasurable one, I sometimes feel that I can’t connect to that pleasure. There is a rambam and kesef Mishna at the end of hilchos lulav saying that there is no simcha as the simcha of a mitzvah. Sometimes I can connect to that, but many times I can’t. How can we truly tap into that potential that our avodas Hashem has to elevate our lives?)

2.)    Another thing that helps me neutralize my question on a more emotional level is the following: I try to imagine my life after already having had the pleasures I so crave. If I crave doing x,y and z, I try imagining having done so already and how I would feel about it. Would my life be so much different and better? I many times realize that having license to do x,y and z might be geshmak for the moment, but on the long run it doesn’t change my life for the better (and in fact sometimes for the worse). Many times it helps me sober up a bit from when I have a craving for something not so good.

I would love to hear your ideas on this matter so please feel free to post away.

Welcome! May your stay here be with hatzlacha and amazingly rapid growth!

A while ago a fellow asked a similar question. He asked that since he's struggling with both masturbation and pornography, should he focus on one at a time. In my opinion your question is inquiring about the same point. Here is my response last time, I believe it is just as applicable to your query.

"Grant400" post=356306 date=1602816669 catid=19

The way I understand it is like DoingTeshuva so aptly touched upon.

The foundation to all of these desires whether it's porn, images, ogling women in the street, fantasizing, masturbation, arousal of any kind etc. is lust. Lusting is what triggers all of these outcomes.

All of the ways a person acts out are all symptoms of the primary problem. Lusting. If a person addresses solely the symptoms he will remain in a constant uphill battle his whole life.

He can say, I'll work on porn for a year, or masturbation, and move on, but in my experience it is shortsighted. As long as one indulges in any of these areas he is trying to quench his thirst for lust. As long as his lust is being fed and teased it will remain alive and kicking, and will beg for satisfaction in all areas.

I'm not saying it's not possible to be porn free and still masturbate or vice versa, but the root of the problem is still there and will make it more difficult in all areas.

I found that when I tried to work in specific areas only it was practically impossible. When faced with triggers in the areas I "allowed" myself in would inevitably eventually crumble in the face of temptation.

I was a movie adict who would never dream of living without my beloved actors and producers of "harmless" movies, but after stopping because it was out of control I realized like the GYE handbook says, that a huge portion of my excessive constant lusting was triggered by short intimate scenes or an immodestly dressed actor. I didn't even begin to understand the impact it had on totally "irrelevant" other areas of sexual desire.

So what I'm saying is, in my opinion/ experience, going cold turkey in all areas is technically easier than constantly stimulating and inciting your desire and trying to keep it in check.

So to answer your question. You have a lust problem. It manifests itself in many areas including porn and masturbation, but at the same time each symptom i.e. p & m, create a desire for the other porning begs for masturbation and masturbation asks for pornography.

Basically they are independent yet connected at the same time. So each one must be worked on individually, but the effects they have on the other cannot be ignored.

Hatzlacha!

                                  Grant

The above was my original post.

So to answer your question. In my opinion it only makes the battle harder for 2 reasons. First, like I wrote above, that as long as your lust is being fed it will continue to be hungry which makes it more difficult. Second, by allowing "permitted" masturbation you are not training yourself to live without sexual indulgence. You may be minimizing your acting out through sheer willpower but you will still remain an addict.

                                  Grant

Welcome! You have arrived at the right place!

You seem to have clarity in how this battle usually goes.

 Let's begin your journey with a seemingly simple yet extraordinarily important question:

Why do you want to stop? Is it just because it's an aveira or is there more? Does the fact that it's an aveira cause you unspeakable pain? Make you feel like you are living a lie? Do you feel unfaithful to something or someone? Is this addiction causing damage in other areas of your life?

The first step is identifying the real reasons you want to stop, this way when confronted by an urge you have a powerful antidote. It's not just an esoteric piece of knowledge that it's wrong vs. tremendous desire. It's not simply an intellectual understand fending off something that easily transcends intellect. It's emotion against emotion. Now its pleasure fighting pleasure.

You must understand that your real desire, the most enjoyable pleasures and the cremé de la cremé of fantasies is to remain clean and not indulge in a few short sighted moments of fleeting pleasure .

Weigh the pros and cons, judge the advantages and disadvantages. Honestly. Now, come to a conclusion about which path will indeed cause the most pleasant outcome. Make it an understanding that when confronted with a desire to feast upon specific pleasures the response will be " Seriously? That's what I will really enjoy? Yes, maybe for a few fugacious moments, but with much longer lasting disturbing consequences. It's a futile immature attempt at happiness that will leave me with a gaping whole of guilt and frustration"!

"No, for the sake of authentic bliss I will prevail and continue fighting and remaining clean"!

Obviously it is harder than I'm making it seem, but this is an important step in planning a successful battle strategy for a successful future.

                                    Grant

Hello,
I have been struggling since the age of 12 with my addiction, and I was depressed until the age of 20. Yeshivah is what changed things around. BH I went to avery supportive yeshivah and I have a close connection with a rabbi which I enjoy very much (highly reccomended). I have learned much about bitachon lately which has changed my life from worry filled to a life of bliss and has been imperetive to my growth in this area of addiction (and all other areas of my life) and in learning to bounce back to my feet if I fall C"V. I am now 24 and happier than I have ever been B"H.

I still struggle to keep on track and make sure that I do not use the technology avalaible to me via my parents. I can't blame my parents because if I do I am certainly more likely to fall, since I am putting the accountability on them, not myself and I will say "it is their fault", dangerous stuff. I am accountable for my actions B"H and I will try to think this way bli neder.
I find it particularly dificult when I let go and start to let myself go on their computer, just sitting there in front of the computer is enough to get me going, and there starts the rapid fall, it can take seconds! I have been on the computer for hours without falling before but I have also been on there for an hour or less as well. Really, going on places like youtube or ali express or ebay (and other sites)  is a danger zone because I am nichshal as soon as a picture comes up. But why? isn't the first look permitted?
I think that as soon as I sit down in front of the computer I can be called a Shote (an idiot) because who am I kidding? that is the place that I have fallen numerous times, and this time I expect it to be any different? It is clear that I cannot be near any unfiltered device without adequate supervision. This means that my supervisor must understand that they can't leave for a second until I have finished with the computer, and only once the computer is closed they can leave. The supervisor will help me be on track and not deviate from the task at hand. 
But how often can I get a supervisor? the answer is, not often. So what happens if I need to urgently look up something? Well I have urgently looked up something in the past and it never got me anywhere, all it did was waste time. And where did I get the information in the end? From my filtered computer. So it is clear that I must not use the unfiltered computer unsupervised under any circumstances as it is not going to help me in any way. 
Thank Hashem that He has given me the Daas to write on the forum, and write this piece with clarity! Please Hashem, You have made me your servant as a Jew which is the most precious gift! Please, let me live up to that gift of servitude. All I want is to serve you. I love You HKB"H, You are my everything and you have helped us achieve so much, You have helped us overcome countless challenges, and I am ever grateful. I Love You Hashem!

Hey all, I apologize for going AWOL. I'd like to give you an update on my situation. Last motzei shabbos (not this past one) I fell after over 5 and a half months of being clean. I watched porn and masturbated a few times. Then I went about a week clean and masturbated on Monday and Tuesday IIRC, this time without porn. Now, I've been clean today so far Ok, that was your update. Now let's head into reflections; the fun part.Why did I fall? Some of the contributing factors seem to have been: having a stomach ache, not being able to fall asleep, and just generally being under a lot of stress. I decided to look at porn and not just masturbate because I figured I may as well go "all out." I didn't feel like I needed to watch porn per se, I just figured I may as well watch and get "material" to masturbate to. 

I learned (not for the first time) that looking at porn definitely makes me feel worse afterward vs. masturbation alone. I also learned that I don't need porn to masturbate, and I actually get more pleasure out of masturbating without it. It also helps that I don't feel nearly as bad after just masturbating. Therefore, when I choose to fall, I think it's important that I just masturbate and don't look at porn.After falling, I asked myself where to go from here. I found that I fell again after a week because I had no plan or focus on what I was trying to accomplish, and I felt that masturbation alone didn't make me feel so horrible, so why not do it again. I told myself that it's normal and expected, especially from someone under so much stress like myself. 

I also recognized that while I was motivated to refrain from porn and masturbation because I want to live in congruence with my values as a frum Jew, (which state that these things are prohibited) I only managed to actually refrain by using "shelo lishma" tools such as counting days and posting here on the forum. Only by creating significance out of staying clean for a certain amount of time and the daily posting which reminded me to stay focused, was I able to amass really long streaks. 

There isn't anything wrong with "shelo lishma" tricks or tools of course. It's like someone who orders danishes for his weekly chavrusa learning. He wants to learn for the right reasons, but he is smart so he using everything he can to motivate himself, like danishes. Same thing with my counting days and posting on the forum. It helps me keep this mitzva of shmiras einayim and shmiras habris. 

After this fall I started wondering (not for the first time) whether I should be giving so much attention to this issue by counting days, posting, watching the daily boost videos etc. I had this question not because I thought that focusing on this would be counterintuitive (although there is some element of truth to that as well). Instead, I started questioning if this is what I should be doing. As in, is it the correct thing for me to do? 

Why wouldn't it be the correct thing for me to do? For example, let's say that I try to go to minyan every day (happens to be a true fact). Let's also say that I find it really hard to go to minyan and end up not going some days. I feel bad when I don't go, and generally, I think I'd be better off going. Now let's say that because of my difficulty in going to minyan, I decided to join an online support group where I posted about my struggles and successes, and also bought a calendar where I marked off each day I went to minyan. I also set different goal streaks and celebrated when I achieved my goals. 

 In this example above, I personally don't think that doing this is the solution to my minyan problem. While there isn't anything wrong with doing the above-described actions for solving my laziness to go to minyan, I don't think it would be the healthiest thing for me. While minyan is important to me, it isn't everything, and taking the above actions may cause me to give going to minyan undue importance at the expense of my sanity.
So I think going forward I'm not going to be posting or counting, not even keeping track of days at all. Not even checking once in a while how long it's been. I'm not aware of any mitzvah in the Torah that requires me to do so. I don't feel very setback by this fall, and I don't feel like I need to "get back" to where I was. Honestly, with one day clean, I feel exactly where I was a week ago. I feel just as in control etc.

If someone is dealing with a bad habit/addiction, let's say chronic porn watching, and wants to stop, support and tracking days perhaps can be helpful. I just honestly know that what I'm dealing with isn't that. Masturbating every now and then is not a bad habit or addiction. Yes, it's something I don't want to do because it is against my values, and I'll try my best not to. I just don't think I need to make this a focus. 

I waited to write this because frankly I didn't have the time or energy. I welcome any feedback from y'all. Love you all and wishing everyone a great night!

Grant, beautiful post. Very true. Another scenario where you see the different outcome in ways of the thinking is when one unfortunately has a fall. The fellow who thinks like you (the way you described where you are up to in your post) will understandably be upset, however he will iyh catch himself, clean up, and move on. However the fellow who believes he is a lust driven beast and has no real control when released from the cage of filters etc, will oftentimes binge and act out numerous times - spiraling down the slope. So yes, it is most important to rewire your thinking that you can b'ezras Hashem stay in control.

Disclaimer - there are some individuals who are true addicts, and for them what is written above is not applicable. 

45 days; halfway to 90. 

It's really a good time to reflect but I will have to be brief. 

Not too far back I was working on streaks, 8 days, 10 days, 14 days even 19 days. 
I now see that it is time to move on. 
Now i am breaking free. 
I don't need this stuff. 
I am leading a happy life without it. 
I am happy being a guy who does not have to put up with addiction and bad habits. 

It's not a question of how long I can torture myself for, it's the realisation that a person can change. 

You can become a person who doesn't eat certain hechsherim. 
You can become a person who wears a hat in the street. 
And I, I became a person who does not masturbate. 
Years ago I became a person who does and now I became a person who doesn't. 

And here's the catch; this change did not happen on day 45, it has really been the attitude since day 10 after a particularly powerful phone call with @hhm. I am forever grateful.
There is no need for a healthy person to fall. 
There is no need for a person to cave in to every will and temptation. 

Once I started using that train even thought, even beshaas nisayon, it's a different game. 

Imagine the feeling of someone who has never done this, when he gets a nisayon, it's a minor one. 
If he has done it once, it's harder but not impossible. He knows the pleasure and doesn't yet see that the pleasure lessens each time, but it's not impossible. 
Only after caving in a few times, does it feel like part of life. 

And I believe that every one of us can convince himself, and it will be a true attitude, that he is a guy who has done it once, and falling is not part of my life. 

If anyone wants to hear more about this or wants to be in touch in general on the phone feel free to pm me for my number 

Welcome to GYE!  I'H with hard work you will break free.  It sounds like from your post that you only recently began to engage in these behavior. Consider yourself lucky (and be proud) that you weren't involved during your teenage years.  It is clear that you have reached a certain level of maturity to recognized that you were going down a dangerous path and want to make the necessary changes. 

From your post, it sounds like you only looked at porn one time?  So my first piece of advice is KEEP IT TO THAT ONE TIME!  From an addiction standpoint, Porn is a lot more destructive than masturbation.  Since you've only looked once, you haven't developed (hopefully) that craving yet.  It is much easier to learn tools to fight the y'h for masturbation without having to fight the urge to look at porn.  As Grant have noted, spend some time on the forum to learn from some of the other veteran GYE members.  Also, make sure to read through the GYE handbook and to listen to a series from R' Shafier from the Shmuz called the Fight theshmuz.com/series/the-fight/.  It is an absolute much listen.

Dear Millennial,

Welcome! May your stay here be a success!

First off, I want do disagree with one point. I know people here will probably disagree with me, but here's my opinion. This concept of it being like a muscle is true, but only if you don't give in. When you fight in the beginning it's mindblowingly tough but eventually as you wrote, the muscles get stronger and you get more confident in your ability to stave it off. In addition, it does get easier.

But as long as you continue to give in you won't get stronger. You will just be feeding a desire for pleasure which can lead to a physical and emotional addiction to it.

You must start off with getting a good filter for your computer. Even if it costs more now, it will cost less in the future.

Second, try to really understand your deepest emotions why you honestly don't want to indulge in this. Make it clear to yourself that the pleasure gained is really much more lost. This way it isn't a desire for pleasure vs. a "concept", but rather vs. an equivalent desire for happiness.

 Also, you must identify your biggest triggers and try to stay away from them in addition to starting to compile a list of practical responses to urges that work for you. Browse the forum for ideas.

Most of all, you must work on yourself why you won't give in, why it's more important to you to remain clean, be it Hashem, marriage, etc. Because all the filters and all the tricks can help but the engine must come from the person himself.

Hatzlacha!

                                 Grant

The way I understand it is like DoingTeshuva so aptly touched upon.

The foundation to all of these desires whether it's porn, images, ogling women in the street, fantasizing, masturbation, arousal of any kind etc. is lust. Lusting is what triggers all of these outcomes.

All of the ways a person acts out are all symptoms of the primary problem. Lusting. If a person addresses solely the symptoms he will remain in a constant uphill battle his whole life.

He can say, I'll work on porn for a year, or masturbation, and move on, but in my experience it is shortsighted. As long as one indulges in any of these areas he is trying to quench his thirst for lust. As long as his lust is being fed and teased it will remain alive and kicking, and will beg for satisfaction in all areas.

I'm not saying it's not possible to be porn free and still masturbate or vice versa, but the root of the problem is still there and will make it more difficult in all areas.

I found that when I tried to work in specific areas only it was practically impossible. When faced with triggers in the areas I "allowed" myself in would inevitably eventually crumble in the face of temptation.

I was a movie adict who would never dream of living without my beloved actors and producers of "harmless" movies, but after stopping because it was out of control I realized like the GYE handbook says, that a huge portion of my excessive constant lusting was triggered by short intimate scenes or an immodestly dressed actor. I didn't even begin to understand the impact it had on totally "irrelevant" other areas of sexual desire.

So what I'm saying is, in my opinion/ experience, going cold turkey in all areas is technically easier than constantly stimulating and inciting your desire and trying to keep it in check.

So to answer your question. You have a lust problem. It manifests itself in many areas including porn and masturbation, but at the same time each symptom i.e. p & m, create a desire for the other porning begs for masturbation and masturbation asks for pornography.

Basically they are independent yet connected at the same time. So each one must be worked on individually, but the effects they have on the other cannot be ignored. 

Hatzlacha!

                                  Grant

From my experience, I think porn makes things a lot worse. It has for me. With , m (masturbation) alone, the filthy thoughts would be limited to what i can imagine on my own. I'd still do the deed, but wouldn't waste nearly as much time. 

With p (porn) it's just endless and i'd sit for a much, much longer time. my mind would get more filled with many more garbage images. 

Even a magazine was much better than internet p. Number of pics are limited so eventually get bored and try to finish. 

I know of people who can watch porn and stay clean from masturbation and when they don't have acces to porn they masturbate.
​What's better? what's a bigger sin ??
Watching porn awakes your urge to masturbate, besides all the other bad side affects that free porn brings along.

I have learned that in order to break free from porn, masturbation and all the rest, one has to restrain himself from lusting.
To lust, means to look at women in the street, to think and fantasize ..........
​You don't consider staring at women a fall, but by Lusting you'll end up falling.

There is nothing greater that I regret than watching porn in my early days. You can stop watching for many years but the scenes are still in my head.
I wish there was a delete Butten in head.

Oish these Yeshiva Boys need rashi to understand a post!