OK, Battleworn, your post was very enlightening, I am glad you answered and I am going to make this extremely simple, for you and anyone else reading this.

On the one hand there is:

1) Your personal experience of what works for you which is what you know at first hand about how methods that you have actually used have worked for you.

Then on the other hand there are your opinions of:

2) What you believe about other methods that you have not used.

3) Your opinions on how methods that you have not used compare with methods you have used.

4) Your opinions about whether methods that you have not used should be used.

On number 1, what works for you you have a lot of value to offer this forum that only you can offer.

You, for example, have an excellent opportunity to describe, in even the vaguest terms, if you prefer not to go into detail, how your struggle was before R' Tzodok and how it was afterwards. You could describe what it was that you believe did it for you and how.

The same would apply equally to Rav Tzvi Meir. Just hypothetically, if this were the case, you could describe how you used to be constantly fighting the yetzer hora of temptation every time you would be reminded of something and how after going regularly to Rav Tzvi Meir you would just think of this or that thought and the temptation would subside.

That is what I was eager to hear from you, that is no doubt what others want to hear from you, and that is what I am still waiting to hear from you. And when it comes to that, you are the undisputed expert. In the AA system they call that sharing experience, strength and hope. When you take that route there will be no debates at all. How could anyone in their right mind possibly argue with your experience of what worked for you?

That's what leads to achdus on the forum.

Here, in contrast, is what leads to debates, of your own making:

battleworn]
But listen to this: To me it's seems clear that going to R' Tvi Meir instead of the 12 groups, is at least a 100 times as amazing.[/quote]

Imagine that you had never learned sefer mesilas yeshorim in your life.

Imagine that you saw on a website that it is a sefer on the ten steps in the Braisa of R' Pinchos b' Yoir.

Imagine that you looked at that list of 10 steps posted on that website without reading one word of the text of the mesilas yeshorim itself.

Imagine that you saw on that website a brief discussion, written by a contemporary author, of what chaburas and vaadim that work on mesilas yeshorim can achieve as opposed to other methods.

Would you feel qualified based on the list of steps in the braisa and the description of the contemporary author to express opinions on what could be achieved by learning mesilas yeshorim? Would you feel qualified to compare what such chaburas and vaadim could achieve as compared to what you could get from Rav Tzvi Meir?

I have a potentially surprising comment to your possible answer to the above question. It makes absolutely no difference what your answer would be. Regardless of whether or not you would feel qualified, you would be unqualified. Why? Not because you are too young. Not because you do not have sufficient experience. But because you have nothing useful to offer with your opinions on matters with which you are entirely unfamiliar.

Battleworn, you do not know this and it should not be necessary for me to explain it to you, but the list of 12 steps were never a program in their own right. The fact that you see them posted all over the web, including on this site, shows only one thing, how superficial society is today and how much people crave instant gratification.

Just consider what the 12 step system actually is.

The Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) system that everyone refers to as the 12 steps actually comprises of three parts:

1) Attending group meetings at which much of the time was spent on public readings from AA literature and the rest on individuals sharing their stories, focusing on solutions and not problems, often connected to what they had just read, on [i]how the AA system was working for them[/i]. As above they shared their experience, strength and hope. (As a rule they kept away from expressing personal opinions).

2) Having a sponsor, a fellow member, usually with a significant sobriety period, who supports and guides the AA member on working the 12 steps.

3) Working the Steps into daily life.

The AA member does not need to read the AA Book to work the system, the AA member does not even have to know how to read. He hears 20-25 minutes of AA literature read aloud in each meeting and many of his fellow members, especially his sponsor have read the book. He gets the system without reading the AA Book or any other AA literature by learning from everyone else.

Today many recovery groups such as NA - Narcotics Anonymous, OA - Overeaters Anonymous and SA - Sexaholics Anonymous use the same system for their respective addictions.

However, anyone who has neither read the literature, nor done the system as part of a group, not only does not have any personal experience of the AA 12 Step system, they have no idea whatsoever it is.

They have no more idea of what the system is from looking through an online list of 12 steps than they could figure out the sefer mesilas yeshorim from the braysa of R' Pinchas ben Yoir.

Now, battleworn, you, Yaakov and many others on this site are not told this when you come on this site and it is not your fault. It is a fundamental problem with the site that Guard recognizes and he tells me it will be fixed in the near future.

But that is not even the point. Even if you had read the AA literature and even of you had knowledge of the system, since you have no experience of it, you are not offering an informed opinion when you try and discuss the merits of the AA system and when you try and compare it with methods with which you are familiar. And an uninformed opinion is worse than no opinion. Especially on a site where people are looking for excuses to not do what they need to be doing.

[quote= wrote:


So, battleworn once again, you say it gave you all that and a lot more. I was not asking for comparisons between a method you know and a method you don't. I wanted to hear from you with a little more detail than "all that" of what it did for you, not what you think that it gave you more than other methods of which you have no experience. Expressing your opinions on relative advantages over a method of which you have no experience is idle and uninformed speculation.

And battleworn, this forum is an opportunity for both you and Yaakov to learn one of the things that I learned from the Groups that you too can learn without having to actually go yourselves. When you focus on your own experience of "What Works for Me" you will be giving much more than opinions.

battleworn] It seemed to me to imply that R' Twerski holds that the steps are lichatchila which I know not to be the case.[/quote]

You are equating your understanding of Rabbi Twersky with your claimed knowledge of what he holds. If you actually knew what Rabbi Twersky held you would not have quoted Guard. You do not know what Rabbi Twersky holds, you think you know. Again, you never spoke to Rabbi Twersky about this, you have no first-hand knowledge of what he holds, all you have is your interpretation of what you believe that Rabbi Twersky holds. Now you may believe that your interpretation is well-informed and correct, but even if you were right, and you are most certainly wrong, recognizing the difference between knowledge and interpretation would save you much debate.

[quote= wrote:


You responded with your own reading into the quote from Rabbi Twersky and your own belief about Torah Hashkofo. Neither are plain and neither are facts. One plain fact is that there are conceivable circumstances in which the wrong person in the wrong group could lose out. Another plain fact is that you know nothing of the groups, nothing of the likelihood of problems in the groups and nothing at all about hashkofas haTorah on what risks are worth taking as is very obvious from this remark here:

[quote="battleworn]
The 12 Steps groups around the world are intentionally mixed, even though it is known that the opposite sexes do trigger each other in group support - especially for addicts. And yes, this can -and has - led to trouble, but only with those who hadn't really hit bottom or weren't really ready for the groups yet...
HOWEVER - and this is a big HOWEVER, as frum people, we can't take these kind of risks, even if there is some benefit to be found in it. The risk of even one person falling is not worth the gain.

I want to clarify a Hashkafa point over here. For Holy Jews that were commanded by Hashem "Kidoshim tih'yu" the problem is not only the risk of falling. Kol makom she'atoh motzei GEDER ervah atoh motzai kidusha. The Chofetz Chayim said: the more geder; the more kedusha and siyata dishmaya. I think that if one goes to the groups unnecessarily he's probably over an issur di'oraisoh of kidoshim tih'yu. So even if someone doesn't fall, it's clearly not the ideal solution.[/quote]

Before I speak about your lack of experience I will speak of my experience. I have gone to groups at one SA location and Shomer has gone to two other locations. There were no women at any of the meetings we have attended.

Getting back to the question itself, I assume that you do not think that you are HoRav Chaim Kanievsky and so you ought to realize that you are way out of your depth on she'eilos of this nature. You are suggesting that many addicts who are constantly being vaday nichshal in vaday arayos should across the board and as a rule avoid what has the best track record and the best chance of working for them because of the hypothetical risk that under the wrong conditions isolated addicts might be tempted to do shelo kehogen and bring evil upon themselves. The best geder erva is to get people who are constantly being nichshal in arayos to get the best treatment available.

Now it's not relevant how uninformed and misguided your comment was. It is not relevant that you call such ignorance "simple undisputed Torah Hashkofo". What is relevant is that you have no idea of the metzius of the nature of the various groups, that you do not know the halochos and hashkofos that are relevant to this question and yet you express opinions as if you are an authority on the subject.
   
What is relevant is that if instead of pontificating on issues on which you are totally unequipped to address you gave us some real details of your own experience with the methods you had tried and how they have helped you deal with your nisyonos we would all be better off.

battleworn]
At this point Guard decided to challenge me about R'T' M'(This may have been due to the above misunderstanding)

[quote]And the reason for it is, as Rabbi Twerski once wrote:

- I have attended many mussar shiurim. Everybody understands the importance of mussar, but I doubt if many people walk away with the feeling, wrote:


Ah, finally some experience. Please battleworn, when it came to your opinions, you did not spare us the word-count, if you would only give us half as many words on your experience with the musar groups, how you felt beforehand, how you felt at the time, how the musar groups have changed the way you deal with the addiction, then we would really be getting where we need to be.


battleworn] [quote] No one in any mussar shiur I attended has ever spoken up and said, wrote:


So let us apply the message that should now be obvious. Your experience says that this holy forum does it. Your opinion, or rather since your opinion is based totally on ignorance, your prejudice, claims that it is better and more balanced. Which do you think we want, your experience or your prejudice?

battleworn]
[quote]
- I don't recall anyone in a mussar shiur being so touched that they began to cry. It happens often in the 12 step program.[/quote]

That's how I know that R' Twerski was apparently never by R' Tzvi Meir[/quote]

OK, and you were, so tell us more.


[quote= wrote:


So go ahead, battleworn, and share the strength, hope and courage you got from there with us .

battleworn][quote]
Rav Tzvi Meyer's Shiurim may be super-powerful, but I don't know if they have these above ingredients which are so vital to recovery for the hard-core addict.[/quote]

Not only do they have all the ingredients, they have a lot lot more.

I didn't claim to be an expert of any sort, all I did was answer the question that I WAS ASKED![/quote]

You do not know and cannot know what they would do for wrote:


You were the one who quoted Rabbi Twersky about the phone groups and said you would rely on his judgement on that.

[quote="battleworn][quote]
None of us would walk into a Beis Hamedrash and start giving shiur on a sugya that we had not adequately prepared. On this forum it's pikuach nefesh.[/quote]

When did I ever do such a thing? Maybe you're confusing with R' Twerski.[/quote]

No confusion here at all. Rabbi Twersky is a little older and wiser than you. True, he is not an addict, he doesn't know a lot about the groups and he has not always answered the questions in the clearest way, but at least what he wrote is largely based on experience and commonsense. By contrast, you, with all of your enthusiasm, have rushed to judgment, with neither knowledge nor experience.

So how can I make it more simple?

Sharing [b]experience strength and hope[/b], means sharing [b]what has worked for you[/b].

I thought I wasn't going to reply here, but now I changed my mind. I see that although I yearn for the madreiga where I could just let it all roll right of my back, I clearly have not gotten there yet. I want to make it very clear that I do not think there's any to'eles to this debate and the only reason I right the following is to get it off my chest instead of keeping it inside.






Here are my answers:
1) No I don't agree at all. We definitely should express our opinions. That's the point of the forum ,there's even a special section called "What works for me".
I agree that we should not stuff our opinion down other people's throats.
I also agree that we should not express opinions which can jepordize someone's chances of getting help. That is why I (unlike some other people) have allways tried to be careful and to think before posting what the effect of my post might be. IF ANYONE FEELS THAT I EVER POSTED AN OPINION WHICH DISCOURAGED THEM FROM GOING TO THE GROUPS, PLEASE SPEAK UP.   

2) Yes I agree but I have absolutely no idea what it has to do with anything. If you mean to say that I need to be humble enough to recognize that R' Twerski is not an expert, then of-course I disagree.

3)Being that I don't know exactly what you're reffering to, I'll try to cover all the possibilities.

Think you can do this without the 12 steps groups? Do you think that you can serenely learn the Eibishter's Torah while the yetzer hora disturbs you with the most profane temptations? I wish you the best of luck, but it is at very least, much easier said than done. And it is certainly a lot easier to do it a lot more effectively by joining a 12 step group.



I made it very clear that I'm not pushing anyone anywhere. All I did was use R' T' M' as an example of how I don't tell other people what to do. I did not discuss people who are suffering and in addition I even said that I may be wrong about yaakov who is B'H not suffering. I Also made it clear that I'm not interested in debating anyone.

But boruch and Rabeinu Guard felt thought that it would be le'to'eles to force me to discuss what I don't want to.



Please read that again. He B'chcodo u'vi'atzmo is asking me. Is this communist Russia over here? You ask me a question and then you have taynos on me for answering you honestly? You defintely could have kept quite; there was nothing forcing you to ask me this question.



Notice that I made it very clear: "If you're asking me"




Again it was not my choice to discuss this but rather yours



I did NOT offer any opinion over here. These are Guards words, not mine! I thought that was clear!
Apparently Guard misunderstood the point of this quote, and thought it was about the first question [(a) above]
So he posted this:




It seemed to me to imply that R' Twerski holds that the steps are lichatchila which I know not to be the case. Being that this was said in a discussion with me, I could not remain silent. So I responded NOT with my opinion but with plain facts: A quote from guard and simple undesputed Torah Hashkafa


 

To this I would add the following quote from R' Twerski himself:



It is very clear that R' Twerski is reccomending the groups not because he thinks they're lechatchila but rather because there's no other choice. This is NOT my opinion it's R' Twerski's.

I also saw that both Guard and Boruch were trying to shy away from R' Twerski's opinion that the groups are not for everyone. So I ASKED Guard to clarify.




Notice that I asked: IF there's a different option what would he say. I was not disscusing weather there is or not.




This is pathetic. You can't fool me. I read the book and according to his criteria no addict will ever come to the forum or website.

At this point Guard decided to challenge me about R'T' M'(This may have been due to the above misunderstanding)




You should realize that I saw this quote from R' Twerski a long time ago, and I didn't say anything. But now Guard felt that it would be benificial to ask me if R' T' M' has these ingredients. So being that as far as I know, this is not communist Russia, I again answered honestly.





I didn't claim to be an expert of any sort, all I did was answer the question that I WAS ASKED!




Are you nuts? Because I'm unfamiliar with the steps, I can't ask Guard to better explain his/R' Twerski's criteria for we should encourage to go?




Who did I suggest it to? Guard?




Again with the phone conferences! I have never ever said a word about the phone conferences. If you have a problem with R' Twerski, take it up with him what lemaan Hashem do you want from my life?




When did I ever do such a thing? Maybe you're confusing with R' Twerski.

I have to run now so I can't check this thing over, sorry.

The triggers you speak of are minimal. They appear only once in the book, and with no descriptions... But again Battleworn, it is similar to the 12-Steps. It is vital to differentiate between someone who is heavily addicted / not coping, and people who are coping and are not so addicted. The story of the Rosh Yeshiva should perhaps only be read only by someone who is heavily adicted, and in such a case it is neccecary for him to read the story the way Ya'ir tells it - with what you call "the triggers", because otherwise the point wouldn't get accross fully.

BTW. R' Ya'ir has a Rebbe who is very respectable (I can't say his name, but he is well known and a respected in ALL circles) and he told Ya'ir to KEEP the book exactly the way it is, otherwise the point would not get across properly (see the intro).

Anyway, when I read the book, I found that the discussion with Yerachmiel could be very helpful to us all - since Yerachmiel was NOT addicted so badly and we could all relate to the things that he learned from the Rosh Yeshiva. As I wrote in the first e-mail (#401 on this page):

"The lessons of the book apply to anyone working on this area, whether he has hit "rock bottom" or has only begun the decent into the cycle of addiction. In the coming e-mails, we will focus mainly on the lessons that apply to those who have not yet "hit bottom", since most of the members of this Chizuk e-mail list probably fit into that category".

According to the book there are different levels of addiction. Yerachmiel was also addicted pretty strongly, but not to the point of total surrender. I think that is where a lot of guys on GUE are.

As far as what you write about the "Higher Power", as frum Yidden we can relate to it much easier. Those who treat the higher power as something other than a spiritual experience will not be AS successful in using the 12-Steps. They will mainly gain from the group support, but may ultimately fall back into it. Again, I encourage you to read the article over here. There you will see that although the 12-Steps have been watered down over time to accommodate more people - even agnostics; and today "Higher Power" can be anything, however, the fact remains that the truest and surest way to recovery is when the Higher Power is Hashem. And for us frum Yidden, this poses no problem at all.

sorry everybody that i haven't been posting lately.
  b"h i am still holding strong and hope everyone is gaining on their mission to be free. things have been up and down recently. things are getting easier, but i still feel the y"h turning inside of me. be it as it may, i get down when this happens and even more so when i am not so into my learning( which by definition means i am into something else).
  i was shopping at ikea  last night with my wife and there were a lot of non religious women there and honestly i was lusting. on the drive back it was bothering me and i felt this battle and contradiction inside of me. what i want and what i have, yearning for that nice body,- and it got me a bit down. then it came to me, that contradiction within us is the sand that grinds away in the clam, to make a beautiful pearl. meaning that if we never feel down and are ALWAYS up we never really are being pushed to grow, and those feelings shouldn't be used to get us down but rather to make us aware of our present state of being and where we need to continue to work on.
  i truly believe with all my heart that the only way that we will ultimately be happy when this is all said and done, is to fill that void constantly with ahavas hashem and avodas hashem, every moment of the day. we feel bad and the only way we will feel good is not only from the sur m' rah ,because that will wear off  in time.but to make every moment of our lives a connection to hashem. every seder,davening and a constant awareness that we can and are in a specific avod of the rbs"o- on the street, in the house 24/7. as i am writing this some may think that this is way beyond us,right? thing of it this way- aren't we always on the look-out for that girl on the street or more of the filth of the internet 24/7? this addiction is all about constant awareness, we can turn it on it's head and use it for the good. we are wired to be aware and stare- yet we are never satisfied, this is the y"h who's soul purpose is to destroy us! our souls are great and the y"h knows that we can be in constant awareness mode of the rbs"o. we are fighting a mighty warrior who has the arsenal of knowing our nature better than we know ourselves- the only advice there is , is to cling to the rbs"o, pour our hearts our to him, and constantly find new ways to bring our ovodah to greater heights. this is the only true ,time tested answer to all of our problems.
i write this; wishing i could internalize, live it and not just spell it out. with a heavy heart wishing things were easier and yearning for feelings of comfort. with all my prays and admiration to my fellow warriors, may tomorrow shine a new light on tzion, and all of our yearning souls to "be holy".

Ano Nymous wrote on 22 Mar 2009 01:15:


Of course I was joking! :D
Sorry if I scared any of you. I have a very dry sense of humor. Yes, I am learning in Yeshiva. And I don't really see anything wrong with reading every post on this forum. It gives me encouragement as well as another kosher thing to do online.

I read Yair Shochet's book [which is very highly [b]un[/b]recommended as it contains very graphic descriptions that can be triggering] and I see that he has very different definitions than I've seen until now. An addict -according to him- is only one who's whole life is totally out of control and totally controlled by the addiction (Yerachmiel in the story was not addicted (a.t.h.). Rock-bottom (a.t.h.)means a lot worse than that (for ex:a Rosh Yeshiva who was caught etc.) The idea of rock-bottom (a.t.h.)is that every addict cuts himself of totally from the whole world and doesn't trust anyone at all. Therefore it's impossible to help him until he becomes so desperate that he's forced to open up. The whole idea of the Higher Power (a.t.h.) has nothing to do with Emunah it's just about breaking through the isolation of the addict.

I'm wondering if there's a right and wrong here or it's just open to anyone's interpretation. If anyone has anything to say, please post. Thank You.

Dear Guard,

Thank you for taking the time to post to my journal!

Last week (the week I went to my first SA meeting) was a critical week for me.  As things happened,  last week I did not attend just one meeting, but 3.  Furthermore, the 3 meetings I did attend were all different meetings.

So here Guard is what happened over the past week, perhaps one of the most emotionally charged and tumultuous weeks of my life.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I attended a meeting last Sunday.  I drove an hour, parked my car and walked point blank for the first time in my life into a church.  Although I was the only frum Jew in the room, everyone was very nice and courteous to me.  I listened, but did not speak and was a bit shaken from what I had heard in that room.  For the first time in my life I heard real human beings in front of my face expressing their struggles in real words and it was heavy stuff.  I don't think that I was quite emotionally prepared to hear what I heard, as many of the individuals in that room were talking about things far worse than I had ever done myself.

Having gone to my first meeting, I knew that I did not have a choice but to go again if I wanted to break free of the addiction, but was full of reservations about the actual program.  Boruch, however, was kind enough to talk to me for an hour on the way back and assuaged many of my fears.

Fast forward 2 days to Tuesday and I was thrust into an emergency task for work and had to be up half the night.  I was physically taxed and emotionally wobbly.  During the course of the maintenance, I started looking at images that I should not have.  This was technically not pornography, but certainly close enough to want to make me look for more.  I began looking for holes in my filter/monitoring/accountability software and unfortunately found one.  I slipped Tues. night and again Wed.

Devastated by this mapalah and full of questions about the group I had gone to the previous Sunday, I decided to join boruch at his Thursday group to see if it would work for me.  Boruch has found much success in the small, conservative and committed nature of his SA group and I thought that may work better for me.  I went w/ boruch to his Thursday group and was impressed, but still held reservations regarding my ability to succeed in a goyishe environment and was concerned about how the scheduling would effect the time I spend w/ my wife as well as how I would leave work early every week.  I was committed, however, to work the program and would find a way to make it happen.

At the end of Sundays group, a Jewish individual who was wearing a baseball cap and jeans, but was probably a shomer Shabbos, told me that there was an SA group in my town that was predominantly frum.  He had given me a number to call, but at the time I had anonymity concerns and did not plan on making contactl.

On my way home from boruch's group, I began thinking to myself "wow, this is a really long drive, how will I justify this to my wife every week? how will I slip out of work early every week?".  Additionally, at boruch's behest, I asked for a temporary sponsor.  I was assigned a temp. sponsor, who I am sure is a fine fellow, but someone that has about as much as common with me as an automobile has to a toaster oven.  I was desperate, however, and was willing to give it a go.

That night as I was driving to night seder, I thought, why not give this frum person a call and find out what the local SA group was all about.  Well I made that call and ended up missing night seder as I was talking for about an hour.  Having expressed my questions and concerns I was happy to learn that there are six SA meeting a week just minutes from my home that are attended by individuals just like myself that are fighting and succeeding.  I decided then and there that I would attend the early morning Friday meeting.

I was a bit nervous and a bit taken aback when I saw "normal" Jews such as myself walk into a room, sit in a circle and express the same (and in certain instances more severe) fears, concerns and struggles that I myself had been experiencing.

I made a call to that same person right before Shabbos to express concern over a scheduled maintenance I would need to perform for work motzei Shabbos in the middle of the night.  Getting on the phone and calling someone really helped me to actualize the nisayon and b"h I was fine last night.

This morning I got a call from someone I met in the meeting.  He told me that he had heard what I had to say during the "share" and wanted to reach out and let me know that there is hope.  He confided in me that he had struggled for years by himself and that nothing seemed to work.  He told me that he had been clean from masturbation for 2 1/2 years and porn for 1 1/2 years.  He spoke of the miracle of the program and injected some much needed hope into my state of being.

I think that I have b"h found my place and hope that Hashem will be kind to me and grant me the tools, desire and strength to stay sober for a lifetime.

As for now, it is one day at a time ....

Today is day 4 

Thank you, everyone!  I had my L'Chaim today.  My son enjoyed it, but my wife took a sip and that was it.  (BTW, my son has no idea that I have this addiction that I'm fighting.)

This is indeed a new phase, like I posted before.  I now need to transition out of the milestone mentality.  G-d willing, I will expand this journey into a complete spiritual overhaul.  At any rate, a gitte woch to everyone!

Wow...
120 sounds so nice on paper.
I have another issue though. I am addicted... to this forum. I feel I have to read EVERY new post. I've lost my job and am now homeless. Please help!

guardureyes wrote on 21 Mar 2009 20:00:

For an addict, the idea of getting married young can only worsen the addiction.  I got married at age 21 (I am 31 today) and I had not properly dealt with my addiction prior to getting married.  In fact it was the months leading up to the wedding that my addiction began to increase.  It was at that time that I discovered internet porn.  I lived those months in guilt for ruining myself and my wife.  I was lost.  I had no one to talk to.  I had already mentioned on another post how, when I was young I would contemplate suicide.  During those months, I would think about it all the time.  At the same time I was trying to prepare myself spiritually.  Which I was doing.  My inside desired nothing but spirituality and living a true life of keduash.  But my actions did not match up.  And somehow I craved porn all day.  I could not escape.  It was only a week and a half before my wedding that I finally was able to throw it away.  I threw myself into the seforim hakedoshim and fixed my ways.  My chupah was so intense.  My eyes were closed as I entered it and my lips moved in prayer as I asked for forgiveness.  I still love looking at those pictures today. It reminds me of my true teshuva that I expressed that fine day under the chupah.  But all I could think of was freeing me of my aveiros.
Marriage got off to a good start until two months into it.  We got a computer and it was all down hill from there.  I had not even desired porn until that day.  But when the computer entered the house, my brain had already made the associations between computer/internet and porn. And almost immediately, I fell into it.  I could not get out.  I was hopeless.  I got depressed as I felt like a total failure and cheater.  My therapist later explained to me how guilt breeds more bad action. Indeed he was right.  Being married with the addiction (especially when I did not even know I had an addiction. The term internet/porn addiction did not exist.  People never spoke about that.) made the addiction and marriage harder.     

Now I should point out that I always loved my wife and we always maintained a good marriage.  We continued to grow.  But an addiction is an addiction.  If it is not treated then it will not go away.  To try to distract it with marriage just does not work.  I thought it would which I why I got that more depressed.  I also thought that by getting married I surely will have not these problems anymore.  Well, over ten years over marriage I am finally properly lifting myself up, high up.  I am not doing this for my wife.  I am not doing this for my kids. I am doing this for my creator who obligates me in kedusha.  I am doing this for my neshama that desires nothing other than perfection and coming close to Hashem.  My wife and kids reap those benefits which brings me happiness. 

Regarding chazal's encouragement to get married to protect from sin, chazal on that same sugya point out how torah can also suffer.  And a person needs to weigh it out.  Exactly why Torah will suffer is a bit a dispute between Rashi and Tosfos, but the details do not matter too much right now.  The point is many considerations need to be evaluated.  The poskim bring down from the maharshal who says that to wait until 24 is fine.  This is based on the gemara itself that gives this age.  Getting married young can bring unnecessary stress to a person's life. 

I am not discouraging net from marriage. But I do think 19 is too young anyways.  I do not think that it is the answer to deal with addiction.  I do think it is wise to wait it out and have a better plan of life and feel ready.  Now if he feels ready for it, then it is a different story.

As for me, in the long run getting married young was a blessing. 

Hi everyone sorry that I havent posted in a while. I have had a bit of a crazy week.
It started off with finally telling my wife everyting that is happening with me. I started off by telling her about my current situation and from there told her everything about my pass even since before we were married. The mistake that I did was that I didnt tell her everything on the same say. It took me a week and a half to tell here the whole story. The reason that I say that it was a mistake is because I started making her doubt if she can really trust me or not, that if I actually told her everything or not. Trust is one area in marriage that should not be broken because once it is than its really hard to gain the trust back. As you can imagine she is taking it really hard but on all I am really impress with the way she is handling it. She recommended us to go and see a sex therapist which we did. And it went pretty well B''H. Its not easy dealing with all this, but it is a huge step that I had to take since I knew that if i was really going to be serious about working on my addiction that this was a step that had to be taken. Iys really  amazing because just 2 month ago I would of never imagined that I would of told my wife, and  that i would go to a sex therapist , to SA meetings which I still havent gone to my first one yet excluding the phone meetings, which I have been participating with the past several weeks.  Overal these are steps that one needs to take in order to get rid of these addictions for life. Obviously it takes time. It actuallly takes one day at a time.
And thank you Ykv_Schwartz  for emailing me, encouraging me and reminding me of the importance of posting on the forum.
Have a good shabbos everyone.

Dear Poshut-Yid,

I think Hashem arranged things that today's Chizuk e-mail (#435) should be written for you! He writes there about hitting bottom and seeking and help, and I think that you are in that very situation now yourself. You are speaking with Michelle and will be seeing an addiction doctor soon. Make sure he fits the descriptions of today's e-mail. I am sure that you will start to see success in the merit of these important steps and in the merit of your determination.

For good advice on how to protect yourself best with K9, see this page.

As far as an accountability partner, you sent us your file a while ago and we tried to set you up with one or two people. Did it not work out in the end?

Also, as I'm sure you know, there's a whole list of tools on our website's home-page.
- Do you join a 12-Step group? This could ultimately be your best bet.
- You might want to try and speak to Rav Ya'ir Shochat in Israel on our new Israeli hot-line...
- Read through past Chizuk e-mails / tips on our site when feeling weak.
- Use vows in a SMART and SAFE way - see here. For example, did you ever try making a vow for a month (or less at first) to go for a ten minute walk before giving in? These type of vows are VERY powerful tools, and they are not so hard to keep that you would be afraid that you won't be able to keep them.

Now for some Chizuk, dear yid:

The 32 days you were clean - and all other times as well - are yours forever, they will never be lost even if you fall, and it is these little "tryings" that you keep doing will add up and ultimately give you the strength to learn full control. 1) You have to believe that with enough effort you will succeed. 2) And you have to always keep happy with the little successes you have. These two secrets are the recipe for ultimate success.

Imagine how many thousands of times you said "no" to your Yetzer Hara in the past. This should give you Simcha. You may keep falling, but you still have the upper hand.

It is brought down in the sefer, menucha v'kedusha, written by a talmid of R' Chaim Volozhin, that a person who sins his whole life can still be considered a zaddik, as long as he never gives up and always continues to fight. We like to think of success in terms of results.  But we know Hashem looks at our efforts. 

One of the most important yesodos in this struggle is NOT to get DOWN on yourself. This leads to a downward spiral. Feel regret, but not sadness. How can you tell the difference? Listen to this 5 minute audio clip from a Shiur by Rabbi Shafier.

Also, read Chizuk e-mail 296 and 297 on this page (scroll down).

We are honored to have you on our forum, fighting along side us all to give Hashem pleasure. The fact you keep coming back shows that you have a strong Ratzon. Keep trying, davening and being happy, and you WILL ultimately succeed!

My friends, it has been way too long since I have been on the site and gotten chizuk from everyone. Now I am desperate to rid myself of this Machalah! As some of you know, I started this journey back in December and did really well for a while. I was succesful for 32 days and then the yetzer got me. Since then I have had many ups and downs. My longest stint was for 12 days and a few 7 day periods of abstinence. Sprinkled in with that I have had weeks that I have been nichshal almost daily. B'H I am only dealing with being mashkiv zera and pornography. I have done worse stuff in the past so at least on a positive note I have not done anymore of that. But now, I have to beat this, it is DESTROYING my life both spiritually, financially and empotionally. I am spending hours a day glued to the computer. I need HELP!!! I am commiting today to go a full week without any p... or SH"Z!
I have tried many times in the past to quit and alas, this problem has been with me for 22 years. I am speaking with Michelle weekly and will also be seeing an addictions doctor.
I need your help to give me chizuk and help me overcome this. The 32 days I was clean were the best days I have felt for a long time. I really felt alive.. I felt spiritually connected to HKB"HU.
If there is someone out there who can be an accountability partner that I can call once a day please can you send me an email to needtikkun@gmail.com.
Tomorrrow will be day 1 and I daven that Shabbos will help me be mechazek the foundation. I have also installled K9 and have to set up the filter properly so I can access the websites I need for work and then I will get rid of the password.
Thank you for listening.
Poshut Yid

battleworn wrote on 19 Mar 2009 18:09:


Let's see if for the sake of those who need us we can agree on the following:

1) We should not express our own opinions on addiction for those who are struggling.

2) We need to be humble enough to realize that we are not experts.

3) You have stated opinions about everything from SA groups and 12 steps to Rav Tzvi Meir.

You are unfamiliar with SA groups and so it does not make sense to discuss criteria about them. You probably don't realize that until the time that you have been a part of SA you will most certainly be equally unfamiliar with the steps as long as and until you see how to do them lemaaseh and only then could you understand. Guard gets the steps much better than you do, ask him if I did not have to explain to him a fundamental part of step 3.

Is there any sizeable data on recovery rates of struggling addicts who listen to Rav Tzvi Meir? If there is not, then suggesting it to someone who is being nichshal instead of a proven method is less than bedieved it's assidin liten es hadin.

The phone conferences are certainly bedieved as I clearly explained, no-one would date over the phone instead of in-person.

None of us would walk into a Beis Hamedrash and start giving shiur on a sugya that we had not adequately prepared. On this forum it's pikuach nefesh.

battleworn wrote on 19 Mar 2009 15:19:


You are not taking the metzius into account, of course, not being familiar with it, you cannot be blamed. The metzius is that not all groups are created equal. The first thing that any Frum Yid has to know is that lechatchilo if he is going to groups he needs a conservative and strongly religious group. That leaves only SA groups as opposed to the others. Among SA groups he needs lechatchilo to find a conservative group. At conservative groups they are very particular that no nonsense go on. The leaders are all ex-addicts and have a very hightened sense for these things, are very vigilant and keep control.

But ultimately it depends who we are talking about. If it's you or Yaakov and in the meantime you are managing, so ask a sheiloh if you are interested and if you are not it is anyway not nogeia. I asked and was told to go. You do what you need to.

However to raise this issue for someone who is constantly being nichshal is pure chassidus shel shtus, the ultimate foolishness, stupidity, tzvius and rishus. Would you date your future wife over the phone? Would you see a therapist over the phone? Let's stop fooling ourselves and let's stop describing BIG bedieveds as if they were lechatchilo.

So let us get back on track, we may be OK, the suffering addict is not, let's stop debating the styles that work for those who cope, and I take full blame for having started that here.

We should have one message for the suffering addict. Read the book and go to the real groups if you are ready.