Dear Hoping

You are really on the right track and have taken steps that alot of people have not, going on a phone meeting is not easy and to actually verbalise our actions is a major step - do not underestimate how much progress you have made.  I also really relate to your struggle regarding your willpower in recovery, and will relate from my experiance in the SA program.  

When I joined SA over 4.5 years ago, I did not understand what was going on at meetings, I did not understand how the steps will cure me, I was really confused.  What I was not confused about though is that there were people at the meeting who were sharing that they had the same issues as me, some even worse then me and were staying sober.  I was in such a bad place so desperate to stop this; everything I had tried until then had not worked yet, here was a group of people that were actually doing something (the steps etc) and were staying stopped, and in those early months of recovery that gave me such a chizuk that I kept coming back to meetings.  The members at the meeting kept telling me bring the body back and the feelings will follow, and I did and slowly but surely I got sober and stayed sober.  All I needed was 3 ingrediants - honesty open-mindedness and willingness.  Even these past 7 months after I relapsed after 3 years, I kept coming back, and since joining this forum have BH managed again to start getting sober again.

Do not be overwhelmed take it slowly, the addict mind is very confused when coming into recovery - my therapist told me a brilliant line today - "easy does it but do it!", focus on doing the next right thing, what does Hashem want frome me at this moment, take it one moment at a time one day at a time, and if you perservere you will succeed, I have previoulsy posted "how it works"  and the "promises" from AA on this forum, I am sure R' Guard can put a link here read them.  Keep posting and asking.

Keep coming back
London

My understanding is that an addict is powerless to simply give up the addiction.  However, if he takes it one day at a time, takes the necessary precautions, and begs Hashem for assistance, it can be done.

This is bringing back memories of speaking to Rabonim to get help and being told- "just exert a little self control", or "I know what your'e going through I had an addiction to coffee and thorugh will power got through it"

They mean well, but do not understand, this forum is the place to get help!!!!

Dear "Nearly",

I removed the word "porn" from your name. I hope you don't mind. Now we will try to remove it from your heart.

BTW. What's the idea of your x-girlfriend's number. Is that a joke? I didn't get it. Maybe you have to be English to get it? ;D I removed that too. Sorry. She'll have to find others to talk to, not the guys here...

Anyway, welcome to our community. I am the admin of this forum. You have come to the right place. The common denominator of all the behaviors you describe is an addiction to "Lust". There are are two prerequisites to beginning to heal from this addiction. One is admitting you have a problem, and two is wanting to get help. You have already done both of those. Now comes step three, actually getting the help!

The first step to getting "long term" Chizuk, is to sign up to the daily Chizuk e-mails over here.

If you've read a little bit through this forum, I’m sure you'll quickly realize that you are not alone and that we get cries for help like yours many times a day, both by e-mail and on the forum.

You've been going through this cycle of addiction for a number of years already... I'm sure you've tried to get up many times, only to fall again. It doesn't matter that you may have managed to stay clean for longer periods here and there, it's the overall pattern that shows this is an addiction.

We could offer you lots of great Chizuk and advice right now, but it would last only a few days and then wear off. Instead, we want to help you in a way that will be much more effective and systematic.

We put a lot of effort into writing up handbooks that contain all the tools to breaking free of this addiction, in progressive order. These are tools that we in the GYE community have gathered together - through hundreds of people's experiences over the years. These tools can help anyone, no matter what stage of addiction they might be at. Whether someone is just struggling a little, or whether they have tried countless times to break free with all types of advice and tricks, these handbook will be able to guide them on the right path. (See below for links to the handbooks).

By reading the handbooks and exploring what tools you've tried and which you haven't - we can work together and discuss a battle plan for you (along with the others on the forum) step by step, tool by tool. This will give us a clear "Framework" to work in, and will help you make progress, slowly but surely for the long term - and not just some "great" advice that will quickly fade away...

We are here for you, and we will do our very best to offer chizuk and advice and help you along for as long as it takes, but let's do it within a systematic framework so that the progress can be outlined and mapped, and you will finally be able to break free of this endless cycle of addiction...

Please right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

Obviously though, just reading the handbooks alone won't be enough. They don't have "magical" words in them . They simply lay down the tools before you, so that you can use those tools with careful thought, patience and determination. Very quickly you will come to see and believe that it CAN BE DONE!

Rabbi Twerski always says that this illness is like a spiritual cancer. And what will a person not do to get better from cancer? Nothing should stand in his way! To recover from this illness, we have to be ready to put in at least as much time as we spent acting out...

Read the PDF files linked above, as well as the tips on our website and FAQ pages, and read through the threads on this forum and through the archives of past Chizuk e-mails sent out.

The underlying secret to the success of so many people on our website, is that we learn to stop fighting the lust head-on. It is too strong for us to overpower alone. Instead, we learn how to give over the fight to Hashem, and how to side-step the lust, using carefully thought out techniques, boundaries and fences. To this end, a good internet filter is a very important first step. Please see this page for many great filter options. And I can hold the password for you. See this page for how to do it!

May Hashem be with you!

Hello London, regards from Stamford Hill, im 20 years old, and have a computer with internet access in my room, i used to be a crazy addict, seriusly now, i was, like, the king of porn, but things in my life have recently come crashing down, and its made me turn to god as opposed to pressing the self destruct button, i have tried everything in the past to stop watching porn, i mean everything (except throwing my pc out the window) i have put up blockers, i have got friend sto typ passwords in and not tell me etc sof kol sof, jack crap, if you wanna watch it then there is nothing that could stop you, i feel its more important to SOLVE THE BLOODY ISSUE then just block it away, as i said above, im very spirtualy connected at the moment, and i want hashe to help me so badly, this is what i did, i have a double problem, PORN and along with it MAST... i thought about it, other one or the other IM STOPPING! then i realised that if i watch the porn and not..... NAH IMPOSSIBLE (FOR ME) so i chose to stop watching porn, now how do i deal with my shizzle, well, im bored in my room, i started dreaming........ im turned on! natrually, im gonna wanna watcha porna  but instaed of going straight onto xxx i light a cigerette, or a spliff, and sit there learning masilas yishorim (gates of repentence) and i lose the will to ******* best of luck to everyone, and just remember!!!! every time we hold ourselves back for even a few minutes we are on the same level as yosef hazadik when he ran away from potifas wife!!!! and then ask god for anyhting you want!!!

Dearest new reb Dovid -

This may not apply to you. Still it may, so please consider it.
I need to share with you that the last thing that I was able to deal with in any sensible and useful way, was my sexuality, boruch Hashem. Part of the reason is that it involves my wife, so it's very complicated and needs a lot of recovery to see it in an uncomplicated and useful way.
But the main reason is just because the particulars of what I desire has absolutely nothing to do with why we are acting out, nor does it have anything directly to do with getting better. I found this out in recovery. I saw people who never learned this end up never getting better, stuck in a holding pattern of, "yeah, but I am different". I saw many folks delay any real recovery because of a perceived need that, "I gotta resolve this particular problem or there'll be no hope I'll ever get better." This is sheker and deadly. One friend of mine who did just that, just got out of jail...and he is still not taking a step forward.
 
Wait - in the beginning I was convinced that what I desired to do with my wife was #1 on the list of issues that had to get solved! I discovered otherwise. What I needed to solve first, was and is my naturally self-centered attitude. In addiction, I naturally focus on my goodness, my frumness, my holiness, my teshuva, etc. It was very hard just letting go of some of the many slightly sick ways I was used to thinking even in teshuvaand to begin learning what my real priorities are. I do not mean being able to say what they are, I mean really knowing it so I behave that way.
So, please, do not mistake me. It is essential to be honest and clear about exactly what bothers you. But once that was clear and written down, the lesson I needed to draw from my list was, "Wow. It is amazing that a guy as nice and spiritual as myself ( I really am, as you seem to be) can also be so totally self-centered and self-absorbed! I need a lot of help just to focus on being useful to others and do the work I need to do to get better!" Hashem took and is taking care of every last one of my desires and needs, in His own, beautiful way.

1) yes, the tzedaka part is mentioned indeed "after" in the booklet, but there are other ideas there and in the links provided that mention the idea of "BEFORE" as well. Tzedaka might be used before also.

2) Yes, please DO go make a living. Just remember, as much time as we spent on our addiction - we have to be willing to spend on recovery.

Efshar Litaken writes to Barditchev on the forum: 

As I read up more about your story, on April 20 you write "Is this normal? Is it normal that I keep on checking GUE all day?" I have to tell you that I have lost or not made lots of money so far this week because I can't get off GYE. and because my work is based on hourly fee, I didnt get more then a total of 4 hrs. of work done this week. but its ok because,

A. I have spent just as much time in the past loosing money to worthless dirt & garbage stuck on or "In" the Yetser Horas "WEB" or "NET". So I hope Its a way of Teshuvas Hamishkol spending time on just the opposite. like Reb Shlomo would say. Holy of Holy, Sweet of the Sweet, Deeper then Deep! And,

B. Its Hashem that gives parnoseh not work. (as long as your for real) so we have to focus first on what we will be taking with us in the world to come & only after that can we bother with the short time we are down here.

Ashrecho Yisroel

guardureyes wrote on 03 Jun 2009 21:55:


I could be wrong, but to me it sounded like dov meant that talking to people who are "normal", meaning people who never have struggled with lust, only made the problem worse because they probably gave bad advice and talked about how easy it should be to turn your back on "such horrible things" by learning some Torah or something. And hearing this kind of talk only adds to the guilt feelings, which in turn exacerbates the addiction. Let me know if I am way off base dov...

Bruce has a good point.

Like we discussed in the past, Hashem wants that we will always be able to say "I don't buy it". Otherwise there would be no free choice - and that would go against the Torah itself. So either buy it, or don't.

If it floats your boat - why not? But as Bruce said, he has more than enough reasons to stop these behaviors (as we brought in Chizuk e-mail #493), even without tying in religion...

After all, do the alcoholics of AA come there because drinking alcohol is forbidden? NO! They just want to get their LIVES BACK.

But of course, for believing Jews, (even if this video happens to be made up) we still do believe that something along the lines of what he describes there may happen to us if we don't do teshuvah. So if that can be an extra push to help you get into recovery, why not?

BUT SEE PRINCIPLE #10 of the ATTITUDE HANDBOOK. Fear of heaven alone will NOT stop an addiction!! Even Rav Amram the head of the Chassidim couldn't do it with his fear of heaven alone! He needed MORE than that!

Dear Hoping, I will let Dov answer you - but I think I already know what he'll say to question #2... Here is something Dov posted recently;

One of the most frequent causes of failure at actually getting better is forgetting. It would be quite natural for me to consider myself fixed up as soon as I turn my back on the first temptation! "It's been three days - I feel better!! I am better!" You'd think that after a year of not screwing up all of us would just figure we are OK. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people I have met in recovery rooms over the years use a revolving door approach for a while, then finally disappear. Strangely, the "last gasp" is often when they start giving advice to others in meetings instead of sharing, I guess because they are now better. They also use "you" - the straw man - a lot when sharing, rather than frankly opening up about themselves directly. Fortunately, some do not. They retain faith - and it really is exactly faith - that they are not OK yet. This means I still cannot expect to act in the same ways I did before and expect to remain sane/healthy; cannot use lusting behaviors and remain in control of them (or myself); can't lie my head off and stay sane in every (or any)other respect, etc.

In order to actually keep getting better, I need to stay an addict in recovery. I try to say:"when I lose my temper/lie/act out, I do xyz." I can't talk like I am all better, lest I actually believe it. It sometimes makes others think I am still doing that stuff, still just as sick. Too bad. The gemora puts it most beautifully: Better I should appear a fool in the eyes of my fellow man for a short time (like a lifetime, for example) than be a fool in the eyes of the Almighty forever. Hatzlacha and stay in touch.

Thank you Dov for your wonderful advice.

A few questions:
1) How do I find an addict that I can be comfortable with?
2) How do I keep focusing on recovery while going through periods that I do not have a drive to sin? It is easier to focus on recovery when I am determined to change, but after I go through some time of not feeling the pull, the focus wears off, only to allow me to get caught in the downward cycle all over again.

Dearest Hoping -
It is touching to read your posts and like others have written, you are certainly a holy jew. A few suggestions to make things much easier for you, to consider:

1) Get at least one addict in recovery who you can get real, clear, and specific with. Terms like "fell" never did me any good, really, even though it is better than nothing. For real recovery get real clear.

2) Getting involved with this site is a fantastic start and support: stick with the winners. We are guided to the help we need! Two kinds of friends got most of us into and kept us inside the problem: bad friends and no friends. I cannot afford to isolate.

3) Consider building a network of friends like us who you can call/email on a moment's notice. I make and get at least 4-5 calls a day to help me not give lust the time of day, with Hashem's help. BTW, talking to "normals" - especially the religious do-gooder kind - just made my problems worse. It added silly, self-centered guilt and just more of the same "emotion" that got me screwed up in the first place. This is an addiction, an illness, and needs to be treated like one, period.

4) Notice that the problem is not really in your eyes but in your head. Mine is. Crazy thinking and self-centeredness goes together with lusting. Use the recovery tools (with help) to slowly - over months and years - change your attitude, not just to stop your behaviors. Otherwise, chas vesholom, you'll think you are OK after a few weeks of not acting out and basically drop the whole thing. Most people probably do this. It is just a matter of time until we'd all rationalize our way back into the same behaviors, just in another venue. Don't be satisfied with bronze or silver, go for real gold and recovery!

These ideas may seem like implementing them'd make things harder for you. But in the log run, doing them made living much much easier for me and they still do. Recovery is still the #1 thing on my mind. When it is not, I know it because I start feeling and acting wacky.

Heartfelt Tefillos are with you from many, many people who understand!

Thank you Ykv!

Your words are exactly what I need to hear. I can live with not focusing on the guilt for now (and maybe never) I just can't decide that it is not my fault.

On another note, the GUE attitude book is amazing. I have read through it and plan on rereading it often.

Currently, I am so focused on my recovery that it is the #1 thing on my mind. I hope that my enthusiasm does not wear off as it has the other times that I have attempted to break free of my terrible addiction. In one month or so, I will be going to the country where  shemiras Ainayim is inordinately more difficult. Also, there is wireless internet access, something that I have B"H removed from my house entirely a number of years ago. Had I not done so, I would be in severely worse shape. Every summer, however, I have been Nichshal with the internet and I am already worrying about how I should deal with this Nisayon. I am trying to arrange that the internet should not be available to me, but it is hard to do without spilling the beans (which I don't think that I can do) I hope that someone can help.

wow - it's been 9 months since i found GUE.it seems like only yesterday that i 'stumbled' across an advertisement for GUE on the yeshivaworld.com. i must say that the strong desire to sin is almost not there anymore.but, as i said, i have to watch out for triggers.depression is a big one.and having no structure in the day, like on a day when i'm off work, can also be a trigger - batala mayve liday shimum. and depression we know from the egel hazahav - the jews got depressed when they 'saw' moshe's coffin.how much more is this true for addicts. take what i said above for 'normal' people (people without addictions), and multiply by 1000 for addicts.addicts are like everyone else - only more so, much more so.and one more thing - dont look back, and dont look (too much) forward. those times are not in our control.the only thing we have control over is NOW.

hoping wrote on 03 Jun 2009 13:00:


Hoping,

The source for the concept of this addiction not being so much our fault and close to an "ones"[אונס] is from the steipler in krainasa d'igrasa (chelek 1).  He discusses masturbation explicitly and says it is too bad that many young men do not realize that they are not to blame.  However, it is natural to feel this our fault and we are to blame as we have allowed ourselves over the years to become more and more and more addicted.  And the truth is that it will be difficult to properly do vidui and teshuvah if you are not to blame.  So, you are justified for feeling the way you feel.  It is natural and correct to a certain degree. 

But now comes the caveat.  Listen to this: ADDICTION FEEDS OFF GUILT.  What this means is that the feeling of guilt does not help one recover but rather it creates a hindrance to recovery.  This has been explained to me eight years ago when I was in therapy and I have seen it with my own eyes in my life and others.  And I believe that many on this forum can attest to it from their own lives as well.   

The other issue that should be important to realize is that the Rabeinu Yona says that when it comes to our obligation of teshuvah, an addict must first work on removing oneself from sin.  Only after he is completely removed, both in action and in mind, whereby he reprogrammed his brain to the point where he knows this is not something he does, only then can he focus on the past, which is called charata. [But even if you are zoche to reach that point, which I am sure you will be, you must realize the distinction between guilt and charata.  Guilt is never constructive.  At a later point we can delve more into that topic]

So on a practical note: Even if you cannot remove the blame from your heart, you must at least learn to ignore it temporarily.  Number one, for practical concerns as addiction feeds of guilt.  And number two, because of the guidance from rabeinu yona in teshuva.

Right now think of yourself as a prisoner who seeks freedom. You hate the current situation and all you are focused on is how to get out.  You should not be focused on whether it is your fault or not. You look to heaven for salvation and put your efforts into action.     

May you be zoche to a true recovery!

Lover of All Jews,
Yaakov