London, you a have a very strong point here. We have to Daven that Hashem should help us on HIS terms and not on our foolish terms.

But I think it's also very important to realize that those tefilos did in fact help. Because every effort that we invest brings us closer to the yeshua. It's through all those efforts and Tefillos, that you were eventually zocheh that Hashem opened your eyes and led you to the truth.

Dear Bruce

In the UK I constantly see adverts claiming 100% satisfaction guaranteed or your money back! I am sure you see them in the States too.  Well this program is not offering 100% satisfaction but it does offer you a life! Try it, if it does not work we can refund you all your misery and suffering. What have you got to loose.

I too have this tendency to analyse, but look where my best thinking got me. Sometimes I have to admit defeat, I am beaten as far as this addiction goes and I have to listen to the people who have gone before me and have been successful in overcoming this horrendous addiction.  This is what AA's 12 & 12 (the guide to working the steps) says in Step 1 "Who cares to admit complete defeat? Practically no one, of course. Every natural instinct cries out against the idea of personal powerlessness. It is truly awful to admit that, glass in hand, we have warped our minds into such an obsession for destructive drinking that only an act of Providence can remove it from us. No other kind of bankruptcy is like this one. Alcohol, now become the rapacious creditor, bleeds us of all self-sufficiency and all will to resist its demands. Once this stark fact is accepted, our bankruptcy as going human concerns is complete.  But upon entering A.A. we soon take quite another view of this absolute humiliation. We perceive that only through utter defeat are we able to take our first steps toward liberation and strength. Our admissions of personal powerlessness finally turn out to be firm bedrock upon which happy and purposeful lives may be built."

A few paragraphs later the 12 & 12 says this:

"We had approached A.A. expecting to be taught self-confidence. Then we had been told that so far as alcohol is concerned, self-confidence was no good whatever; in fact, it was a total liability. Our sponsors declared that we were the victims of a mental obsession so subtly powerful that no amount of human willpower could break it."

Try working the program in bite sizes hour by hour day by day keep posting read the tools in the GYE Handbook, and listen to the suggestions and you will be amazed by how much your life can change in a very short period of time.  In my first post on this forum approx 6 weeks ago I was stuck in a rut and could not see any way out, but thank G-d I am now working hard on my program and getting sober again one day at a time and I can tell you that the mental fuzz, the foggy cloud that was my constant companion is slowly leaving the cravings and obsession to act out are also slowly leaving me.

Keep coming back.

London

Noorah,

Thank you very much for joining the site.  Your confidence in your fight against the menuval is very inspiring to all of us.  I can see you are a very high soul already entrenched with Torah, kedusha and tahara.  The steipler writes (in his letters dealing with mast**n) that one who does teshuvah on this aveira, all of the Torah and tefilla from the past shines forth with greater light.  He explains how so many are under the assumption that even their past "good" deeds are all lost as they have been done under conditions of extreme sin.  But quite the opposite is true.  As I see you have great backing in avodas hashem, I am looking forward to seeing your past shine forth with extreme bright light.   

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is yaakov.  I have been on these forums since the beginning of Feb.  I remained sober since then.  I have gained so much from this site and from all the great tzadikkim on this site.  You should realize that "bardichev" and "Efshar Letaken" are heillege tzaddikim.  I am sure you will gain a lot from them.

"there is no greater danger then complacency, the thought that battle is won. The menuvel has all the time in this world(pun intended!)!!! just waiting for me  the great tzadik to think that I licked him.  then out of nowhere its WHAM BAM and I'm  down for the count.  "

shaarei teshuva shaar 1; #20.

Only recently was this elementary to me.  But it was not always so.  I am happy to see you have are realizing this.  I was addicted for 15 years. Last year I went six months sober and then fell.  I could not pick myself up for three months.  I made many mistakes.  One of them was what you mentioned.  For the past 120 days I have close to zero temptations.  I never feel the urge for p**n.  But I DO NOT consider myself cured.  I constantly address my inner desires and continue to grow. I continue to ask for forgiveness as I know each day of my life I realize even more how great hashem his and how great my sins were.  I daven to hashem to continue removing my urges from within me.  Till the day we die, the menuval will try to attack.  Till the day we die we continue to fortify ourselves. 

[color=blue][i]"there is nothing in the world that incites the baal duver more  then arrogance, and  underestimating his power. As soon as I think that "I" beat him that "I'm" a big tzadik he will just tear me to pieces. "
Yes, we must differentiate between arrogance and confidence.  And we must always realized he is with us till the day we die.  There is no killing him, except with INTENSE teshuvah.  We will not go down that path for now.

Thank you for bringing to light the gemara in kiddushin(81a).  I have written in my notebook of personal growth eight great lessons that I have learned from that gemara, from all five stories. 


bardichev wrote on 08 Jun 2009 21:23:

It is imperative to differentiate between addiction and addictive personalities.  Not everyone who has an addiction has an addictive personality.  The modern day researchers point out how this is especially true for p**n addiction.  Many people who have p**n addiction DO NOT have addictive personalities.  This can be easily seen for people on this forum, who truly lead flourishing lives with a terrible habit to accompany them.  For many people, like myself, the addiction is labeled an addiction based on the fact that I had no self control over what I did not want to do and realized that I should not be doing.  I regretted what I did when I did it but could not take control when time of temptation arrived.  The lack of self control was based on an impulse that we like to refer to as an a need for dopamine.  However, my general life never became unmanageable.  I continued to live life like a normal person, with some major character defect.  The addiction was limited to p**n and it was somehwhat under control.

I am not going to go into the reasons why this true, but it is an issue of fact.  One does not find this when it comes to other addictions like drugs and alcohol, whereby the victim of addiction is usually completely unmanageable.  That is why everyone is shocked when they find out that ploni is a p**n addict.  Even within sex addictions, there are two types.  Understanding where you stand with regards to your addiction is so crucial to recovery.

It is also important to differentiate between p**n addiction and overspending.  Things like overspending are not a matter of dopamine, the way sexual addictions  are.  I cannot go into the neurological details now, but it is important to understand what each addiction is in terms of science.  If not, you have NO IDEA what you are dealing with.  Lumping all addictions into one big group is terribly dangourous.  Thinking  that we understand our addictions when we don't is dangerous.  12 steps is a recovery program.  It is not a diagnosis program. 

For people, like yourself, who have these multi-addictions, and ones that do not deal with dopamine directly, I would go to a real professional about this.  Some times in life we can look at the symptoms and deal with it that way.  But when  the symptoms are so great, we need to hit the core.  We need to get back to the root.  Determining the root is not something you want to do on your own. It is not something you want your SA leader doing for you.  12 steps are not doctors.  We have to go doctors to define the problem for us.  It is not something we should be doing for you. You may need medication for disorders.  Look into it. 

You decide!  Your life is IN your hands to make decisions.

The most difficult thing in my struggle is loneliness and a general discontent -fertile ground for this insidious addiction to flourish.

I'm honest enough to admit to myself that were it not for the filters, I would have long been right back surfin n clicking in the ces spools.
Someone on this forum said, I don't remember who it was but it describes me to a tee (like so many other shares and insights on this forum:))" just. because there is no pollen doesn't mean your not allergic". Rabbi Twersky calls it a "dry drunk" that's me!
A Very frightening feeling!
Well one day at a time and today is almost over -I'm  heading to sleep. I pray that Ribono shel Olom watches over all of us tomorrow jus as He did today.
Good Night

bs"d

Thank you guys, that was very helpful and inspiring. Thanks, London, for starting this thread.

I also want to mention that we have a member called "Jack", who after getting a half a year sober through our forum and website, began joining an OA group for over eating, and he too is doing fantastic. I hope he also joins this discussion.

The bottom line is, I wouldn't try to tackle everything at once. But once you feel more or less stable with the lust, say a half a year or so, you should look into taking care of the rest of your issues, one at a time. Give each one a half a year before attempting to work on the next. At least that's my view. I await Jack's and Boruch's comments.

But as you see, this is all too common. Addictive nature tends to breed a variety of addictions... But once you master the 12-Step principles, they spill over into ALL YOUR AFFAIRS. It is much easier to tackle the other addictions as well...

P.S. See also Miribn's thread on the "Women's forum". She is also dealing with OA and Lust addiction in parallel.

Hi London,

We had a guy called "Boruch" once on our forum. He came here spouting fire AGAINST the 12-Steps (claiming they were Christian, counter-intuitive, etc..), but after his therapist suggested he try them, he did - and he became a new man. He started posting long and beautiful posts about the value of the 12-Steps, and after a while we even named him our "official 12 Step expert" on GUE. We quoted him in many Chizuk e-mails, see e-mails #439 - 450 on this page... He is very intelligent and he internalized the concepts beautifully... We even asked him to lead a whole SA division on GYE (see the handbook, tool #14)... But then he disappeared for a while. Recently, we checked up with him to see how he's doing, and here was his beautiful reply. And I think it will answer some of your questions... If you want, you can contact him yourself at: boruchshemo@gmail.com (I actually suggest you do). Here's what he wrote me last week:

Hello Guard,

With the help of Hashem I am sober in SA for 132 days, one day at a time and all is well. My wife is doing B"H very well in S-Anon and best of all I have stopped trying to "control" her recovery.

Currently, I have three sponsees. I am still working with Y. from Ohio remotely by phone (I hope to meet him in person in several weeks) and within the last three weeks, I am now working with two frum yidden in person who, thanks to a discussion I had at the JSS retreat, these Yidden are now travelling 2 1/2 hours each way from NY State to my out-of-state group for Step meetings that get the participants to work through all of the 12 Steps in a fixed amount of time (in my group it is 4 weeks, in some it is 8, while in at least one it is as many as 20 weeks).

Yaakov is up to Step 9 and the other two are BE"H doing their 4th and 5th with me tonight and tomorrow. I expect that by the time I have taken all three through all 12 Steps on their first pass - by next Tuesday (June 9th), I will be ready to do online stepwork.

I have been very busy with daily contact with my sponsees and I just took a week's trip to the UK just before Shavuos for a chassuna. I have also been busy with the financial wreckage of my past, as you no doubt know the last and most important part of Step 12 is practicing these principles in all of our affairs.

I had seen how Hashem helped me in SA. As it says in the White Book, without Him, I could not have done it, and without me (doing the program), He would not have done it. So in the same way I sought Hashem's help with my compulsive eating. BeChasdei Hashem at a few months in program and at day 30 of full OA sobriety (for me that's what is known as "90-day OA" which means no sugar, sweeteners of any kind, no caffeine, no juices, no flour other than 2 rolls for Shabbos, all food weighed in advance on a digital scale, three daily meals with exact measured amounts from each food group according to a food plan and no eating in between meals), I am healthier than I have been in years.

A year and a half ago I was at an all time high of 225 lbs (102 kg) at a height of only 5' 4" (163 cm) and now I am still 5' 4" (163 cm) but for the first time in years,  I am 163 lbs (73.5 kg). Like SA, there is no willpower and white-knuckling, only surrender and aceptance. For the first time in my life I am eating a regular 3 meals a day - losova, not an ounce more and not an ounce less. Now that Hashem has helped me with food I am now encouraged to get His help with my chronically mismanaged finances as well. With His help, I intend to join Debtor's Anonymous, DA, to likewise get Hashem's help straightening out my finances.

Now in case you think that all this will Chas Vesholom lead to "mission creep" and I will be busy with too much stuff other than SA and GYE/GUE, I can reassure you that this all goes to the bottom line of SA Step 12 work. As you know, we succeed through attraction and not promotion. The attractiveness of the recovery I got from Hashem lies in how much others want "what I got" from Hashem. If doing the 12 steps helped me become sexually sober, physically healthy, debt-free, and a better husband, father, neighbor and employee, that will be even more persuasive than anything and everything I could possibly post on GYE/GUE.

So, bottom line, I am very busy with off-line Step work right now and B'Ezras Hashem should be back by next Tuesday (June 9th). You are most welcome to keep me honest on that one.

BTW my wife recently forwarded a JPost article posted on Vos Iz Neies about some guy Yaakov and his work on an online site that sounded familiar. Nice article

Heiligeh Pinteleh Yid, Aaron4, Hoping, etc, etc.,

What I am about to share is for me, not necessarily for you. You may feel completely differrently or flat-out disagree and Kol Hakavod, precious brothers!

This drash/mussar section of the thread is enlightening and really beautiful, as others have posted. However, in the spirit of "veHachayos Ratzo Vashov", I need to take a deep breath and back up at times like this. I need to remember that (beautiful and true) Torah insights into what the YH is doing, what we are doing, how we do it,  etc., never helped me get sober when I was acting out. They are just a luxury we can "afford" in sobriety. They still, are not my mainstay, just a chizzuk and part of my "pay'rosayhem ba'olam hazeh", perhaps...but...
Sof Davar, when a "nisayon" occurs for me, what saves me is plain and poshut the Ribono Shel Olam. Not my tefillah, nor my efforts against the YH. They may be hishtadlus, like going to work, battle, etc. All I know is that I let Him in, calling out to Him in my worst moment because I do not want to act out and (eventually) die. He does the rest.

In retrospect there is glory in recovery and I can appreciate the beauty of what has happened, yes. But in the moment (and before it) I can't afford to think of myself as doing any tikkunim, fulfilling a mitzvah/prophecy/whatever. The most frustrating days for my acting out used to be (bedavka) aseres yemei teshuvah, sefira (especially yesod days!). These things put the struggle on my plate. When I struggle within a Torah context it just proves too complicated for me and I struggle. When I struggle, I get in trouble. And "trouble" is really bad for my health.

I do not think of myself, in sobriety or in acting out, as reflecting anything good or bad about this generation or the Jewish people. I am a holy yid like you and any other yid, who is also just another addict in recovery. In that respect I am very much like the goy sitting next to me at the meeting, who may be my sponsor or sponsee.
Sorry if anyone finds this offending or upsetting. It is not the truth, just what works for me so far. It may change tomorrow! Still, today I need to be honest about what works and what doesn't, so far, for me. Much love and admiration for each of you - Dov

Hello

BH I am now getting sober days in thanks to the help of my SA program and this forum, however one of the major problems I have experianced is multi addictions which was a large part of my relapse.  I have 3 addictions: lust, food and over spending.  When I was sober in SA for 3 years, I worked at some point on the other 2 but never put them both down like I did with my lust.  It is known that when a person recovers from one addiction the acting out can go side ways like trying to plug a leak the water will burst at the next weakest point. 

As I wrote I am now getting back on the recovery track for my lust BH and am slowly putting more and more days of sobriety, however, I am also overeating and spending money I do not have.

Although this forum is only for lust issues, I know that unless I stop acting out on all levels, I am a ticking time bomb and will explode sooner or later (I exploded after 3 years).  What I would like to know from members on this forum is if you have like me multi addictions and have been sucsessful in putting them ALL down, how did you do this?  My life today is so much better then a few weeks ago, but I know that it can be far far better.  Perhaps the answer is to attend SA, DA (Debtors Annonymous) and OA (overeaters), but it seems too much,

I eagerly await some insperation.

London

I have to disagree with aaron4. At least in my experience, sometimes I can't help but notice that a woman is attractive. I don't think that is synonymous with lusting after her. Instead, she is a complete stranger (maybe a serial killer) who I don't know at all. But she IS just another person. I don't lust after her for my own pleasure. I would say that you should pat yourself on the back when you don't lust after the woman (which includes taking a second look). It's no chiddush that you don't pat yourself on the back when you pass a dude; you weren't wired to be attracted to them to begin with! I think every time you pass an attractive woman and act in a completely appropriate manner (by that I mean COMPLETE control), you should pat yourself on the back. This may not be possible for some people who have gone too far in the addiction, as they may be triggered by even the sight of a woman. If you fall into that category, please disregard my opinion completely. What does the guard think?

Dearest Brothers in Arms,
Permit me to share a recent fall and what I learned from it. I was at that time clean for months and months, this was prior to having found the GUE network and was not counting days nor did i have a sobriety date. Why should I be counting days? a choshver yid such as myself is  not an addict! How wrong I was!!!.   I though that I was permanently cured  and my previous falls were a thing of the past, a bad dream. How wrong I was!!!
At that time I  just completed a major project at work and was on a tremendous HIGH from it, both from a spiritual aspect and a professional aspect. My  davenings there were with  a feeling of  real connection with Hashem, all my tefilos were with a minyan, I was   keeping my sedorim  etc.. Then all of a sudden WHAM BAM the baal duver was back with such an awesome ferociousness, I didn't know what hit me. Each subsequent fall gets worse in intensity and duration). all of a sudden an ice  coldness in my yiddishkiet  overtook me, like I just completely and utterly  shut down spiritually. {akin to a computer virus that completely shuts down the whole system}
Of course i had to go thru the motions for the sake of my wife and children, it was sheer torture. Imagine having to conduct a purim seudah or pesach seder or even a shabbos seudah in such a situation, when the wife and kids are looking to me to set the ruach/spirit of the yom and I'm just coming off a spectacular month long visit to the menuvel"s  finest p**n sites :'(. I wanted to run but  had nowhere to go. :'(

guardureyes wrote on 08 Jun 2009 11:04:


R' Guard, my first thought when I saw that was to look at me and think that I am so amazing,  but the truth is that I am not amazing or unique at all even though my addiction wants me to feel that I am special.  I cannot do this alone without the help of my SA group and the people I call on a regular basis and without this amazing forum I would have no chance.  I am just following the example set by all the warriors who have gone before me, they are the amazing ones.  The Tzadikim on this forum who post regularly and give me strenght are the amazing ones.

Dear Momo

Isolation is the breeding ground of addiction, as I wrote above on my own I have no chance, have you considered going to an SA meetings there are meetings in Israel and I know many people who go, in fact out of all the meetings that I have been to, the English meeting in Yerusholayim is one of the strongest and most powerful meetings I have ever attended.  You can also email me at any time I am on the GMT time zone you are 2 hours ahead so could respond fairly quickly, binyomin25@hotmail.com

Dont give up and keep coming back,

London

Kedusha

Your story of the mikvah reminded me of one Erev Yom Kippur whilst I was in the heat of my addiction, I had gone to mikvah and been to shul to daven mincha and cried my eyes out during Vidu, I made kabbolohs never to do this again and was looking forward to davening Teffilas Zako, I am not sure what happened after mincha but before the Seudoh I ended up masturbating again, and felt so low and disgusted with myself, and decided that I had to goto mikvah again, my wife thought I had gone mad, (which I had).  Now I smile at these stories, these big shows of willpower and big kabbolos and big crying during Yom Kippur, were not the answer.  If I examine my Teffilas of those times I was saying to Hashem please fix me, please make me well, but never willing enough to put down my drug or put in the effort, so of course these Teffilos will not work.  Now I daven to Hashem that I cannot do this without His help, I daven that the addiction is to powerful for me please help me ovecome my struggles, these are the Teffilos that Hashem has been wainting for.

London

Dear Reb Hoping

I really took a lot of strenght from your battle on the street.  Regarding what you wrote on about step 3, Step 3 reads "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of G-d as we understood G-d."  I have no problem handing over my addiction to Hashem, I do not want any part of it, however I have major difficulties handing over my entire life to Hashem, I like to feel that I am in control, that I will do things my way, but as they say how do you make G-d laugh, make plans.  The truth is that I have to turn my entire life over to Hashem, He knows whats best for me, I try to remember to ask my what does Hashem want from me now, and in times of difficulty, ask Hashem that His will should be done not mine.  I find this step very difficult but in truth this is the way that we as Jewish people are brought up, I just need a reminder from the steps.  The Third step prayer is an amazing prayer which I do not say often enough The THIRD STEP Prayer [As adjusted from the book Alcoholics Anonymous, page 63, line 14] God, I offer myself to You — to build with me and to do with me as You will.  Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Your will.  Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Your Power, Your Love, and Your Way of life.  May I do Your will always.

London