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Torah AND the 12-Steps
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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

TOPIC: Torah AND the 12-Steps 20021 Views

Torah AND the 12-Steps 08 Jun 2009 21:53 #5930

  • Dov
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Heiligeh Pinteleh Yid, Aaron4, Hoping, etc, etc.,

What I am about to share is for me, not necessarily for you. You may feel completely differrently or flat-out disagree and Kol Hakavod, precious brothers!

This drash/mussar section of the thread is enlightening and really beautiful, as others have posted. However, in the spirit of "veHachayos Ratzo Vashov", I need to take a deep breath and back up at times like this. I need to remember that (beautiful and true) Torah insights into what the YH is doing, what we are doing, how we do it,  etc., never helped me get sober when I was acting out. They are just a luxury we can "afford" in sobriety. They still, are not my mainstay, just a chizzuk and part of my "pay'rosayhem ba'olam hazeh", perhaps...but...
Sof Davar, when a "nisayon" occurs for me, what saves me is plain and poshut the Ribono Shel Olam. Not my tefillah, nor my efforts against the YH. They may be hishtadlus, like going to work, battle, etc. All I know is that I let Him in, calling out to Him in my worst moment because I do not want to act out and (eventually) die. He does the rest.

In retrospect there is glory in recovery and I can appreciate the beauty of what has happened, yes. But in the moment (and before it) I can't afford to think of myself as doing any tikkunim, fulfilling a mitzvah/prophecy/whatever. The most frustrating days for my acting out used to be (bedavka) aseres yemei teshuvah, sefira (especially yesod days!). These things put the struggle on my plate. When I struggle within a Torah context it just proves too complicated for me and I struggle. When I struggle, I get in trouble. And "trouble" is really bad for my health.

I do not think of myself, in sobriety or in acting out, as reflecting anything good or bad about this generation or the Jewish people. I am a holy yid like you and any other yid, who is also just another addict in recovery. In that respect I am very much like the goy sitting next to me at the meeting, who may be my sponsor or sponsee.
Sorry if anyone finds this offending or upsetting. It is not the truth, just what works for me so far. It may change tomorrow! Still, today I need to be honest about what works and what doesn't, so far, for me. Much love and admiration for each of you - Dov
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: by lev_nishbor.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 08 Jun 2009 22:11 #5932

  • aaron4
dov,

I agree.  To bring an analogy, describing what we're doing in grand terms and as monumental achievements is like getting excited over a large bank balance and thinking that the more you count it and get excited, the richer you'll be.  You've missed the boat!  It's the work that will make you rich (in simple derech ha'teva terms), not counting your money.  Likewise it's the plain and simple, daily work involved in staying sober that leads to success, not waxing poetic over past achievements.  However just as people naturally look back and feel good about past accomplishments, at the annual dinner for example, we on the forum are entitled to do the same, even if it's a little more than annually.  Think of it as healthy social interaction among friends.  We're here to work, sure, but also to share in our accomplishments and pat each other on the back in a healthy way.  After all, we don't have many other sites we can go to!
Last Edit: by Strive for the Truth.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 09 Jun 2009 12:01 #5954

  • rashkebehag
I want to add that this patting on the back and discussions of Gemoras and so on is also a benefit in our work, it makes us aware of where we are holding and keeps us on our toes. I posted the experience I had with the jogger. I wasn't prepared mentally for the Nisayon like when I sit down in front of the computer and yet because I was aware of it I was able to catch myself in time
Last Edit: by getalife.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 15:17 #6021

  • bardichev
rashkebehag

so do I want to discuss gemoros.

for those who don't i am not judging you please do what works for you
but remember one (only one not 12)
TORAH MAYGIN UMATZIL torah protects and saves, here is the kicker BI-IDAN DI-ASSUK BEI UB-IDAN DLO ASSUK BEIwhile you are toiling in it and even when you are not toiling in it

SO HOLY TZADDIKIM YES WHILE YOU ARE HIT WITH A VIRULENT NISSAYON OR YOU ARE IN THE HEAT OF YOUR ADDICTION YES WE LOSE ALL SIYATTA DISHMAYA AND WE ARE TOTALLY DEFENSELESS .YOU CAN SCREAM tatte TILL YOU ARE BLUE IN THE FACE .YOU CAN THANK hASHEM FOR REMINDING YOU HOW SICK YOU ARE YOU CAN CALL YOU CAN GO THROUGH MANY MOTIONS AND EMOTIONS THEY MAY WORK THE MAY NOT

one THING THAT IS MAYGIN AND MATZIL IS TORAH

IF ANY ONE IS OFFENDED BY MY STRONG STAND ON THIS .I SAY SAY SORRY BECAUSE I AM SUPPOSED TO BE POLITE BUT I AM AN HONEST JEW
(with MANY shortcomings thia addiction being numero uno) BUT I KNOW THAT HKB"H IS THE ONE WHO CERATED US HE ALSO CREATED THE Y"H
HE ALSO  CREATED THE WORLD USING HIS TORAH AS THE BLUEPRINT AND HEHASHEM TELSS US THROUGH THE HEILIGE TZADDIKIM
BRASEE=Y"H BARASEE TORAH TAVLIN!!!  SLAM DUNK !!! 3 POINTS FOR TEAM bardichev

now dont get all cute and fuzzy and say if you cracked your rib would you go to a rebbe to huruve on a gemara to fix your rib or will you go to a doctor (altough there are countless stories even in our nebech dor of such people but I don't enven need to go there to win this pathetic argument)
yes i will go to a doctor you is knowledgeable in medecine and who has the experience to heal me with CHUCHMA  he got from HASHEM and I will go to my REBBE to give me and the doctor the SIYATTA  DISHMAYA to heal me

I love everyone on this site especially the HELIGE GUARD just asmall reminder
we are yiddin

humble and happy and loving all yiddin
bardichev
Last Edit: by H-ShemHelpsMe.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 17:23 #6029

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To my favorite bardichever and anyone else who feels strongly that the YH is the only enemy of addicts:
I am simply not privy to the truth about this issue, b"H. Therefore, I don't care enough to argue about it! (besides, I love you way too much to do anything that goofy!)
What I do care about is this:
Practically all of us yidden share in the nisayon of lust, and many of us, r"l fall, at times. (None other than Yaakov Avinu is praised in the Torah for never having seen even "accidental" keri, before marriage - "reishis oni".) Sadly, many of us fall really badly (and some do many times). It just makes no sense to me to say that all those who do, are necessarily addicts. I also do not believe that this "addiction thing" is oker an entire chapter from the the Torah: Acting out on lust in machshovo/dibbur/maaseh is always against the ratzon Hashem for us. In addition, it always has multiple bad side-effects for any yid (and also lh"v, any goy) who does it.
The difference for me was that it made my life unmanageable. Even though it was taking a toll on our marriage, my work, family, not to mention "emptying out" the rest of my avodas Hashem, I obviously could not stop and was obviously getting worse and worse, never better. I was advised by rabbis/rebbes and shrinks to either: learn Tanya, "just hang in there", use my wife a lot more (really!) ???, get involved in chesed, not to worry about it at all :o, or other stuff. I did my best at the time to try them all. The result was a complementary membership to SA. : Other nice jewish boys I know are in jail, institutions, or moving from one marriage to another as a result of this problem. (to be fair: one rebbe and one rabbi told me I needed 12 steps but I didn't listen!)

For the many bochurim who innocently (and correctly) go to a rebbe/rebbi for help in this painful nisayon and are given sound Torah advice related to the struggle with every man's YH, I say: may Hashem b'rachamov ha'merubim help them all make it! But some do not succeed, whether it seems to be their fault or not, and are still doing something to try and stop because they want to. To these I say in all the posts I can: Don't be stubborn. What you have been trying to do in order to stop has obviously not worked, so please stop that and try something - almost anything - else. If you see a significant group of folks who have a problem that looks like yours, yet are doing better and stopped, join them and check it out! Hashem tells us venishmartem me'od lenafshoseichem. This is not a nisayon any more. It's not even a series of nisyonos. There is not any l'shem Shomayim involved at all. It is your own life. It's not even a matter of teshuva (as you know it) right now, at all. It is really, simply pikuach nefesh, as you know that your entire life is getting flushed down the toilet, probably along with the lives of your wife and kids, too. Not to mention the incredible chillul Hashem that your insistence on "fighting the good fight" will lead to. I know of one rov who still hasn't stepped up to the plate yet. I hope he does before the plate is brought to him by the police, his then-ex-wife, or his then-estranged and deeply confused kinderlach.

It is definitely not for everybody, only for some. Everybody needs teshuva, some people need "CPR" first, even though they look fine. I, for one, needed to have "derech eretz kodmo letorah" added to my name for a refuah. May Hashem continue to hold me out of the raging waters of insanity and taavah.
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: by judith45.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 18:10 #6036

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Berdichev-
I agree with you 100% and I think your attitude is amazing! However, I do not believe that anything you said goes against the tools being given in this forum. I can tell you from my own personal story that the night before I discovered this wonderful site, I begged Hashem to help me do teshuva and stop doing the Aveira of HZ"L. So, how am I getting better; through Siyatta Dishmaya or through the tols on this site? the answer is obvious: Hashem gave me Siyatta Dishmaya to find this site! The same is true for Limud Hatorah. I can know the tools of this site but I still need the Torah to be Maygen and give me the right mindset and strength of character to utilize the tools. The mussar seforim are full of Eitzos to defeat the YH. If something is known to work, our Ratzon to do Hashem's will should make it absolutely necessary for us to try it. This is not to say that the same things work for everybody. I am just saying that anyone who does anything to beat the YH is doing the right thing.
Last Edit: by Yechiel.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 19:26 #6043

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Reb Dov I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with The Heiliger bardichiver or not but I totally agree with what your saying.

Talking for myself I have to say that Torah or My Rebbe & Mashpeeah didn't get me very far with this struggle at all.

I don't remember the exact quote but it says that learning Torah improperly is "Eish Ochluson" something to that effect (correct me if I'm wrong) what it means is that it can have the opposite effect on a person, instead of "Magne O'Matsle". The Sitrah Achra only gets to live off the Torah we learn when we are in the acting out on are addiction status.

It was only when I joined The GUE that my life took a new turn & I'm starting to feel the Torah's "Magne O'Matzle".

I put my "Old" Avodas Hashem  & Learning Torah on the back burner (not off the burners) & am now Focusing on my new Avodas Heshem & Learning, which is, "Avodas Hashem" on this addiction, & "Learning" how to Deal with it. Like One of the Tzadikim on this site said "Getting off the Tractor Trailer & onto the Bike".

Once we close the hole in the sinking ship (Treating are Illness) only then can we start pumping out the water (Learning Torah).

As much as there's a shitta of "Asei Tov" & the "Seer Meiroh" will follow, somehow I don't feel that it works with an Addiction.

Efshar Letaken Oti if anyone thinks what I said Needs A Tikun.
Last Edit: by Sulam.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 19:55 #6045

  • bardichev
It was only when I joined The GUE that my life took a new turn & I'm starting to feel the Torah's "Magne O'Matzle".

i am 100% all your previous heilige torah brought you to this site it was maygin and matzil you!!!

the heilige chafetz chaim teaches us torah is machsharto li-os tzaddik it cleans you out.
don't worry about torah going to chitzonim ch"v
Last Edit: by yid.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 19:59 #6046

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You might be right.

I never thought about it like that.
Last Edit: by lihiyot karov .

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:04 #6052

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I believe be-emunah sheleima that what berdichever wrote above is 100% true.

Can I rephrase?

We need a special zechus to find these tools and finally come to realize how close Hashem really is to us all the time. Some might say it is the aveiros lemafreya but that is a time warp my head can't handle. The Torah and mitzvos we do even though we could not achieve his'orerus and w/o any feeling of success, I guess, is what brings us to eventually choose life and find a cure. Ultimately, though, it is chasdei Hashem anyway.

The people on this site are heiligeh yidden who inspire me every day. It just so happens that I really need lots of help today as I am feeling very low. It is hard for me to admit I need to give rather than take. On take mode, I am very, very uncomfortable. Today, for b"H the first time in a long time, I feel just a few steps away from acting out, at times. It feels scary. Thanks for your support,
Dov.
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: by kovea.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:11 #6053

  • the.guard
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It's amazing to think that even Dov, 11 years sober, needs our help. Thank you Dov, for reminding us how this disease doesn't go away. But if we use it though, in the way that you do every day Dov, as a spring-board to a close relationship with Hashem, by being humble and completely dependant on Him for help, then this disease is really a blessing in disguise. And in that case, the fact that it doesn't go away is ALSO a blessing!

We love you Dov. Keep keeping us strong!
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by Freefromit.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:20 #6054

  • bardichev
dov dov dov

ayy you are so smart you jumped right into my sugya and you ( and I ) need some CLEAR understanding here.

For starters here is 2 disclaimers one if you are new to this site READ EVERYTHING I EVER WROTE AND EVERYTHING DOV EVER WROTE

if you are helped by this site (like me) understand that we owe this site and the HEILIGE GUARD OUR LIVES!!!

Putting all nicey nicey on the side

DOV HEILIGE DOV there is a concept you can’t have it both ways

Meaning you can't quote convenient chazal"s and when they get sticky run away from them

so either way do what works for YOU!! I have no problem with that; if it works do not break it. If it is oisgahalten in making you a normal person fine dandy cute as a button great lets move on.

But if you yourself have a need to keep on explaining your derech. I feel you are explaining it to yourself ,because you yourself are not convinced 110%

Hey let's work it the other way around using me bardichev as a mashal .I was (or am even though I don't feel the urge as much but i do not trust myself-Efshar litaken is very in to  my mehalach on that) addicted i needed help fast and furious as you said before I took myself and all that are part of me into cesspool land forever .I did a Google search on internet addiction .I did not even know that there was such a class of addiction I knew one thing me bardichev = addict guess what I found? This site THANK YOU HASHEM !!
I was ready to do anything to stop 12 steps 21 steps 100 steps you name it .I am sorry to say I found help herewithouit NEEDING the 12 steps.

DOV you are a big boy I know you can handle this .There is nothing HOLY about 12 steps it is a technique or a tool as much as hypnosis or meditation.
YES we need CPR but why does youe NESHAMA CRAVE CPR?? WHY DO YOU NEED TO BE HOLY??
BECAUSE  YOU ARE A HOLY YID NOT A HOLY MONKEY!!! YOUR NESHAMA craves KIR_VAES ELOKIM!!!
HASHEM HAS A MAD CRUSH ON YOU AND YOU ARE CRAZYY OVER HIM .!!!

WE CRAVE IT SO BADLY WE DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW TO FIND IT SOMETIMES

Do what ever it takes to be NORMAL: yes a ben adam when you finish your CPR gasp fresh air of torah

ALWAYS YOUR BROTHER


Humble and Happy
bardichev

ps if you don’t read all of mine and dovs posts don’t beat any of us up .
Last Edit: by danielstruggle.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:24 #6056

  • rashkebehag
I don't understand. I posed this question in the beginning of this topic; How come we don't see Torah or Mussar helping. I even presented some attempts to answer. why do we need Guard?, why the 12 steps? why a filter? Why don't we just learn some Torah and every thing will be alright? The real answer i see after all these discussions is that we are not talking about a normal YH. we are talking about an addiction. and sure torah and Mussar,( or Chassidus) will help along and keep us on our toes. But an addict is a diseease. Now it say that torah is a Tavlin. That is only for the YH before he makes you sick, and of course even with the tips and methods and chizzuk of the forum we need torah to keep us here and realize that we must work and work.
Dov is in this 11 years? that is scary. I am poshut frightened
Last Edit: by workingonit.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:33 #6058

  • bardichev
no need to be frightened !!!

do you fear a heart attack ch"v ? no. you dont walk around with a difirbilator
yet we all wear seat belts when we drive

PLEASE remember HABAA LITAHER MISAYIN ASO!!!
PISCHU LEE PESACH KIPISCHO SHEL MACHAT V"ANI EFTACH LECHEM PESACH KIPISCHO SHEL ULASM!!!
ILMALEI HKB"BH OZRO LO YACHAL LO
KI NIFALTI KAMTI  KI ESHEV BICHOSHECH HASEM OR LEE

h&h
bardichev
Last Edit: 12 Jun 2009 14:44 by Chaim1977.

Re: Torah AND the 12-Steps 10 Jun 2009 21:53 #6060

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Reb Dov!

I have to tell you the same Mussar I told my Friend the holy bardichver today.

You cant be Selfish!

If only you would know how much your uplifting chizuk & advise means to me & all of us, & how much it effects us if you or one of are GUE family is down then that on its own would give you the strength to Cary on with your head up high.

Just imagine the captain of the army that says to his soldiers Hey Guys! Today just aint my day! He can't do that to them! they rely on his cheering them up! he has to be strong at all times so that they have the courage to fight on.

Reb Dov,

You have to be strong for us if not for yourself!

You have so many great Ideas how to get over it, just implement them & fight on!

So get over it by knowing that your being strong & uplifted means are being strong & uplifted!

My Rav always says when something isn't going so good that I think its Shlomo Hamelech had the letters "Gimel" "Zein" "Yid" above his Thrown that stand for "Gam Zeh Yavor". because he said that everything passes.

Don't get so excited when things go good because it will pass.

The same is by Bad things don't be worried because this to will pass.

Chazak V'Emotz
Gam Zeh Yavor
Last Edit: by ramko.
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