dov wrote on 18 Jun 2009 17:16:


Thank you Dov, I certainly respect your experience. In general my own experience has been that I know of no better and no more down to earth and practical teacher of Mussar than Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l and his teachings are available in many forms from Beginner (Artscroll's Rabbi Miller Speaks) to Moderate (Thursday night series), to Intermmediate (Tapes on mussar seforim, Awake My Glory, Rejoice O Youth) to advanced (Lev Avigdor, Shaarei Orah, Toras Avigdor).

His depth and practicality while popularly recognized go far beyond what meets the eye.

And as Rabbi Miller said many times there are many situations in life that are not covered in any sefer. So Rabbi Miller's seforim are excellent for the average healthy person but I needed guidance from someone with addiction experience. In general I would not go for parenting advice to someone with no kids (unless it were the Chazon Ish or Satmar Rov). In general I would not go for Sholom Bayis advice to a bochur. Likewise I needed an addict to advise me on how an addict needs to reconnect to Hashem, one bite-size Step at a time.

I can add that a sponsee of mine shared with me that an active abusive sex addict went to Rabbi Miller wanting to hear that he had no hope and that he was doomed forever to burn to cinders in Gehinnom. My sponsee tells me that this addict told him that Rabbi Miller simply told him that he could not help him and that he should go and seek professional help.

Thanks for your clarity and detail, Boruch. One of the issues I have had with "using Torah" was that there is very little in Torah that is broken down into small, bitesize pieces. We - I - learn a maaseh about mesiras nefesh and feel inspired! Yet when I'd get home and my 17year-old doesn't do my will I'd be upset and lash out! When the light turned red and I was in a hurry, I'd feel annoyance inside. Where is the ein od milvado, the Hashem echad, even the simple gam zu letovah inherent in simple faith in G-d? Yes, the concepts are all there, but as long as we keep pretending to learn trust in hashem from things way above us, the ideals are ideals and not inside us. Al levovecha is nice (you know the kotzker/reb tzadok on this) but it is not at all enough for addicts, as you seem to be making clear. We need quality and reality inside us, not just quantity.I hope you do not see what I have posted as differring from what you have written. I think I agree with what you have written and especially respect your experience a great deal, . I am only sharing w/you an understanding of the advantage that the structure of the steps holds and why Torah - as it is taught - didn't work. It still won't, until this basic problem in how it is approached is solved, at least for addicts. To the yidden who contribute to the Torah/Bais Medrash project: share and inspire! but consider what is bite-sze and can be put into action by an addict, some crazier than others. I used to love getting lost in madreigas and ecstatic connection to Hashem. But that is simply not what he wanted from me and it didn't help me. If anyone thinks I am critisizing the Torah, you have not heard me.
Love,
Dov

Dear heiligeh INH yid: It was nice to read your open and honest post. Thanks. Keep the frank-ness and things will keep getting better.
I feel the same exact way as the above yidden and say: consider keeping your date intact and moving on. Humility in sobriety is a good thing. The last thing I need is to maintain the lie that my sobriety is "perfect". It is a gift, never fully earned by me and I do not look a gift horse in the mouth!
We are not dealing with alcohol or cocaine here, where the lines (pun intended) are reasonably clear. It's lust. We do not have a way to draw a clear sobriety definition for lust. SA uses "sex with self or anyone other than the spouse" as its bottom line. Of course, anyone can choose their own. I believe in the Torah and the issur of hirhur bayom connected to hotzoas zera balayla. Nevertheless, as being frum enough never stopped me in addiction, I choose to remain far away from hypocrisy in sobriety, too. I do not associate what's assur or mutar with my sobriety directly. I keep it by the program. hashem takes care of the rest.
(In fact, my Best Eternal Friend has "taken care of the rest", as I have never [yet] had zera levatola even nocturnally since around the start of my second year of sobriety, BH - I am not showing off, just passing along hope)
I would feel batterred and down, yes, but would not change my sobriety date under your circumstances, my friend. I'd also have to work the steps (1-6) to get free of the down-ness, and quick, because: if I feel batterred and down enough - trust me - I'd be acting out soon anyway! With love and appreciation,
Dov
So,

Today is day 7

Very very good! I even had to go to center of town, and was able to avoid or look away, or Baruch HaShem I have glasses I can take off - no contact lenses for me!
This is getting easier and I don't want to let you guys down - So I appreciate your replies to keep me aware that you're pulling with me.

The matter of letting the whole thing - Let Go and let G-d vs. keeping track can be illustrated with a common downfall (previously!) of my addicted self: (the banter in my head goes something like this:)

"Wow! Isn't that so terrible the way that lady is dressed! I can't beliieve someone would dress like that in public. Maybe I didn't see correctly? So I'll look again just to make sure... nope I was right that is really not proper to be so bare...

That could lead latter to checking out a site which features that particle of clothing that "offended" my "righteous" indignation... and so on
The same for "checking" reading materials for "bad" parts and then getting caught up in reading them, when I knew that the author or publisher surely put things like that in

So isn't it better just to say:
"this stuff is not for me - I am letting go"  "I am not interested" and the just turn away...

Do I have to count how many times I fought the YH? Or is that one of his tricks to keep the "partnership" with me going, untill he manages to sell me some of HIS wares...

But maybe not keeping track is haughty and overconfident, like feeling I'll never fall... ooops

What do you think?
Chaim

aaron4 wrote on 18 Jun 2009 12:22:


Those are very elegant words. But the reality for me was that long before I knew what a 4th Step was, or even that there were 12 Steps, I was making a daily inventory with sefer Cheshbon Hanefesh. And I believed that I honestly and truly understood my middos and I was very seriously working on them.

But beneath the surface there was a lot buried very deep that due to both pain and pride I would not and could not look at. I was too proud to go for help and it would have hurt a lot. So I did not. And deep down in my mind if it seemed too difficult and too painful then I was off the hook. End of story. And that's exactly where I was wrong but I was too biased to see it and too isolated to go for help. I spoke to Rabbonim and even Gedolim but I did not get anywhere close to where the real pain was and to where the real problem was. I spoke in generalities not disclosing the true issues because I myself was in denial of them.

In the end my wife schlepped me from therapist to therapist. With the therapist too my wife and I never got close to the real issues. We made a big deal out of the small things and totally ignored the big things. As if by mutual agreement. And we got nowhere. This is what the AA Big Book has to say about the honesty, openness and willingness of the addict:

"More than most people, the alcoholic leads a double life. He is very much the actor. To the outer world he presents his stage character. This is the one he likes his fellows to see. He wants to enjoy a certain reputation, but knows in his heart he doesn’t deserve it.
      The inconsistency is made worse by the things he does on his sprees. Coming to his sense, he is revolted at certain episodes he vaguely remembers. These memories are a nightmare. He trembles to think someone might have observed him. As far as he can, he pushes these memories far inside himself. He hopes they will never see the light of day. He is under constant fear and tension--that makes for more drinking.
      Psychologists are inclined to agree with us. We have spent thousands of dollars for examinations. We know but few instances where we have given these doctors a fair break. We have seldom told them the whole truth nor have we followed their advice. Unwilling to be honest with these sympathetic men, we were honest with no one else."
(p. 73 para 1-3)

aaron4 wrote on 18 Jun 2009 12:22:


What was missing was not missing in Torah it was missing in me. I was not honest, open and willing. I knew very well that I had to be and nothing that you write above was true for me in any way at all. I just excused myself that since it was so painful for me I didn't have to do it. Of course if anyone had told me that at the time I would have argued with them. But I was lying, lying to myself and everyone else.


aaron4 wrote on 18 Jun 2009 12:22:


Well that was not my problem at all. For me it was nowhere near as convoluted as you make it. I needed spoon-feeding and I needed the benefit of people with experience. Fortunately none of my Rabbeim or chaveirim had the experience of being addicts and so I went to the Roman Catholics who had excellent experience.

For me your words sound wery wishful, almost like the ending of a romantic novel, but in my case at least nothing could have been further from the truth. Deep down I knew all along what I had to do, I just had no-one with the experience to show me how to make it easy. And if my experience is any indication I believe that there may be many, many others who like me needed the experience of others to make it easier for them.

bs"d

This thread brings tears to my eyes with thankfulness and hope.

JD, I don't know the exact situation with your wife, but i know about a couple who had a hard time having relations and have been helped. I will ask R'Guard to send you my email address, maybe what helped them can help you too.

May HaShem free you and all of us from our addictions!

I understand this and it's unrefutable in that it's your actual experience and so could not have been any different, however at it's core, learning mussar properly does exactly this.  It's about making a cheshbon hanefesh (4th step inventory), truly and honestly understanding your middos (such as selfishness that leads to spiritual maladies and addiction), and working on improving them (willingness to change).

So it's all there, it's just not as simply stated as the Steps, especially since someone who learns in Yeshiva is exposed to these lofty concepts long before they're able to fully understand what they mean, let alone how to apply them (in truth, they don't even know that there's something to be applied).  And usually, by the time they're ready to understand, the "old" words that they've seen before do not take on new meaning without a life changing event to alter their attitude.  An event like hitting rock bottom, going through the steps (which are brand new and therefore seen in their proper light for someone desperate for life) and eventually, coming back to Torah and Mussar and seeing that in an entirely new light.  Only then do you realize that it was there all along, right under your nose, and yet you saw nothing but words on a page.  If we could only help people "hit bottom while still on top", they will hopefully see this in their lives long before we did in ours.

Here is my attempt to make sense of what had once seemed to me to be a total mystery.

I was a bochur of 20 learning Torah and mussar desperately to get cured to no avail. And I learned Torah and mussar desperately for 23 years and still no progress on my addiction and still no progress on procrastination and other major shortcomings. I was extremely desperate. I had Rabbeim who were very down to earth. Rabbeim who spoke very directly. Rabbeim who said everything I needed to hear and yet all to no effect. Rabbeim who I accepted entirely. And still no progress. A true mystery. At least that is what it seemed to me at the time.

But today I see that the key to unraveling the mystery lies in examining the truth of the claim that addiction is blameless because it is a disease.

Many frum members of the 12 Step community claim that addiction is some mysterious disease that is totally beyond blame. They say that I was not to blame for my addiction. Are they right? Is it true?

Let's start by saying that if these frum people are in the 12 Step community it is safe to assume that they will accept their own 12 Step literature. Here is what the AA Big Book says about the disease that causes addiction:

"Being convinced that self, manifested in various ways, was what had defeated us, we considered its common manifestations. Resentment is the “number one” offender. It destroys more alcoholics than anything else. From it stem all forms of spiritual disease for we have been not only mentally and physically ill, we have been spiritually sick."
(p. 64 para 2,3)

The disease is not just a physical or mental disease, there is a spiritual disease. This is how it works. The addiction is caused by selfishness which in turn causes resentment. That resentment causes all forms of spiritual disease in addition to the physical and mental disease. Here is the key to recovery from these three diseases, from the spiritual, mental and physical diseases:

"When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically."
(p. 64 para 3)

Once we take care of the spiritual disease the other diseases disappear. How and why does that work?

Simple, the real problem was always the spiritual disease and as soon as the spiritual disease is removed then the physical and mental disease heal automatically.

So what is this spiritual disease? What is this spiritual disease that can take hold even in Frum Yidden like myself who learned Torah and Mussar, who had the right Rabbeim and had heard everything that they needed to?

Bill W explains in his 12&12,

"Now let's take the guy full of faith, but still reeking of alcohol. He believes he is devout. His religious observance is scrupulous. He's sure he still believes in God, but suspects that God doesn't believe in him. He takes pledges and more pledges. Following each, he not only drinks again, but acts worse than the last time. Valiantly he tries to fight alcohol, imploring God's help, but the help doesn't come. What, then, can be the matter?"
(12&12 p.31)

So Bill W asked our question too. And as we may have noticed we are not alone in our confusion over this question, we are in the good company of Rabbis, Doctors, Rabbis who are also Doctors and everyone else who was just as baffled as we were:

"To clergymen, doctors, friends, and families, the alcoholic who means well and tries hard is a heartbreaking riddle."
(12&12 p.31)

But to me the answer is really simple.

"This answer has to do with the quality of faith rather than its quantity. This has been our blind spot. We supposed we had humility when really we hadn't. We supposed we had been serious about religious practices when, upon honest appraisal, we found we had been only superficial. Or, going to the other extreme, we had wallowed in emotionalism and had mistaken it for true religious feeling. In both cases, we had been asking something for nothing. "
(12&12 p.32)

Toveil vesheretz beyodo - trying to purify myself while still clinging to the causes of my impurity. My addiction was caused by selfishness and resentment. Yes I can learn Torah and mussar but even then I still have bechira. Torah and mussar will never be enough, if after the all the Torah and mussar I still stubbornly insist on being toveil vesheretz beyodi, Torah and mussar will never work for as long as I still cling to the causes of my addiction - my selfishness and resentment - and the truth is that I had not been either ready or honest enough to give them up and I was not even ready to admit it:

"we really hadn't cleaned house so that the grace of God could enter us and expel the obsession. In no deep or meaningful sense had we ever taken stock of ourselves, made amends to those we had harmed, or freely given to any other human being without any demand for reward. We had not even prayed rightly. We had always said, "Grant me my wishes" instead of "Thy will be done." The love of God and man we understood not at all. Therefore we remained self-deceived, and so incapable of receiving enough grace to restore us to sanity."
(12&12 p.32)

No matter how much Torah and mussar I learned I could not do teshuva until I was ready to be honest enough to change. As long I was unwilling to take the actions I needed to do for teshuva, Hashem would not free me of my spiritual disease. As long as I was unwilling to fix my maasim by doing a real searching cheshbon hanefesh that broke through all my levels of denial then my spiritual disease would remain and I would remain an addict with a full-blown spiritual disease. I would still be unprepared to give to others for their sake and not for mine. I would still be unwilling to daven for anything except for myself and I would still be deep in denial.

So I disagree very strongly with those who claim that I was free from blame because I suffered from a disease. Yes it's true, as long as I remained in my addiction I was hopelessly stuck and unable to change. But I had a choice. The heart of my disease was spiritual and not mental or physical and for that I was entirely to blame.

Hashem was ready to help me as soon as I would do the teshuva that I needed to. Not tehsuva for the aspects of the addiction I could not control, but teshuva for all the direct causes of my addiction that I could have been ready to give up that I was not ready to give up. I alone was entirely to blame.

That's how I came to the Steps. Betachbulos taaseh milchomo -- we need to learn strategies in the battle with the yetzer hora. If I refused to get the openness, honesty and willingness through Torah, at least I could take a lesson from others before me who had trodden this same road and discovered methods and tools to help in the battle. Ein chochom kebaal nissoyon. I could learn from those who had been there and succeeded.

There are some in the frum community who say that we should only learn from yidden. Is this true?

Well, if we had the choice of learning tachbulos, tools and strategies from the millions of frum addicts who preceded us, then certainly, what is the need to learn from aynom yehudim, from non-Jews? There is just one problem. There have been millions of aynom yehudim, of non-Jewish addicts but there were never millions of Jewish addicts. And so we need to learn tachbulos, tools and strategies from non-Jews.

Is it a weakness of Torah that we have never had millions of addicts? Of course not, the fact that we have not had millions of addicts is a strength of Torah. And so I disagree absolutely and totally with those who think that taking tachbulos, tools and strategies from non-Jews who have much more experience with addiction than we do (for good reason) is somehow a weakness in Torah.

What does the the experience of millions of non-Jews teach me? It teaches me that the 12 Steps are the best tools and strategies to learn to break through my denial, to move away from my selfishness, for me to gain readiness to change and readiness to surrender the sheretz that I was so desperately grasping onto while I was learning Torah and mussar.

So to me it is not a question of Torah vs 12 Steps. It is a simple question. Am I ready to change? If I am honestly and fully ready to stop being selfish, If I am honestly and fully ready to get rid of my shortcomings and to make up with all those whom I have harmed then I do not need the Steps at all, because I have already taken all of the Steps with my readiness. If that's the case then all I need is Torah. But if I am not ready to change and I am so stuck that I do not even know what I have to be ready for, then I have to be an absolute fool to ignore the experience of millions of non-Jewish addicts who learned how to get the readiness by using the strategies of the 12 Steps.

Hi JD,

It's always awesome to see somebody make a breakthrough and release themselves properly. Just reading your first post was terrifically enlightening.

I am very new here, but two things occurred to me after reading your post:




The workings of Hashem are far too complicated for us to understand. (ki lo machshevosai machshevosheichem...) Obviously an aveiro creates a negative effect above. But although certain indicators may be placed on earth by Hashem to allow us to determine which areas He thinks require a bit of work, one can never claim to be responsible for these indicators, however apparently glaring the connection with our actions. There is no need for guilt about your marital problems, even if you are doing something that seems to carry with it a punishment directly related to the aveiro. Proceeding without the guilt, and just concentrating on clearing up the problem is much easier and more efficient.

On another note, when I got married, tashmish was practically impossible too. In fact, when our first child was conceived, it was almost immaculate. (Am I allowed to say that word on this forum?  ;D) My wife also registered intense pain. After five years it has slowly worn off (and we also checked with Rabbis, Drs etc). I think essentially the problem was just extreme tension due to various background/childhood reasons. The solution was simply to spend as much time as possible before tashmish (approx 15min) just being sensitive and talking calmly together without making any physical overtures whatsoever. The results were not instantaneous, but it did the trick eventually. This is whilst small some progress was being made in my areas of addiction, of which my wife is and was blissfully unaware. I imagine this is blindingly obvious to you, or anyone else who reads this, but if there is the faintest chance it can be to anyone's advantage it will be worthwhile.

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 17 Jun 2009 20:14:


Hello INH,
Thanks for the questions. In order here are the answers:

1) This is wording taken directly from the book, modified very very lightly for this online format

2) The Full text of Back to Basics is only available online for purchase. However, Chapters 2 through 5 will be summarized here online. Here is a summary of the other chapters:

"Chapter 1 contains a small portion of the written record on the Beginners’ Meetings. This information confirms that these sessions were an integral part of the early success of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Chapter 6 provides additional insight into the inner workings of the Beginners’ Meetings. In the 1940’s, A.A.’s used an Assets and Liabilities checklist to take the Fourth and Fifth Steps. During daily “quiet times,” they conducted a written Eleventh Step. By remaining involved for three to six months, they learned how to sponsor others through these four one-hour sessions."

3) As in SA's Tradition 5, The primary purpose of this board is to make the life saving Back to Basics program as adapted for SA, available to the addict that suffers.

Heiliga Chabura,

The entire purpose of this post is to present an idea to initiate a project that might help us all. This will be done at the end of this post so if you are tired of reading this too long post, please skip to almost the end of this post, before the story of the Imrei Emes.

First, I want to ask mechila from any of you if my posts on this or any other topic caused you any stress. I understand that this site was basically founded on the principles of the 12 step program, specifically to help yidden in, or were in, or about to be in "stage 3". But the reality is that since every yid needs help with attaining kedusha, many others not in the intended target audience need this website as much as the air they breath.

From the fact that some of you fell into "stage 3" proves to me that your neshamos are on a higer level then mine as it says in sukkah daf nun bais amud aleph "kol hagodol maychavaro yitzro gadol mimenu". This makes sense because it says in Avoda Zarah daf gimel amud alef "Ain Hakodosh Boruch Hu Ba Btrunya Im Biriyosuv". This means that Hashem doesn't throw on anyone a load that he cannot ultimately handle. Heiliga Chabura, those of you who are in "stage 3" are/were there because you have what it takes to get out of it and be mesakin the world in the process. How you accomplish it (through 12 step or Torah) doesn't really make a difference. The bottom line is that you are doing it -slowly but surely. Although yidden on every level are fighting their personal fight, some are shooting arrows, others are shooting with pistols, some are shooting rocket propelled grenades but with your struggles, you are firing atom bombs against the koichois horah..

I took the heiliga guard's advice and reread the entire thread. To state the obvious, we are not debating if someone who has found success in the 12 step program should chas vesholom ditch it for a solution found in the Torah. That would be against the teachings of the Torah, since it says in Medrash Eicha Parsha Bais Siman Yud Gimel, "Im Yomar Lecho Adam yesh chochma bagoiyim Ta'amin". What we are debating is whether Mamamorei Chazal can effectively accomplish the same objective as the 12 step program. The big challenge with utlizing the Torah, is that the Torah did not present a solution to "stage 3" in a structured program. The other problem as mentioned several times in this thread, is that it is hard to find a mentor that can successfully guide someone in "stage 3" back to leading a normal life using only Torah. But that doesn't mean that Torah cannot be used successfully - it just means means that finding the solution in Torah, including the Tanya , is extremely difficult.

You might ask me "well who cares what theoretically Torah can or cannot accomplish, since I cannot use it to help me". The answer is that we should care since it said in the Torah that Torah is the "Tavlin". By saying it is not a solution for all "levels", we are denying something that is written in the Torah. Yes choshuver Rashkebehag, Torah can not only fight the "normal" Y"H, but also help with an addiction. The other alternative suggests that addictions are Chas Vosholom more powerful than Torah.

Chazal are full of strategies on how to climb out of whatever mess we are in and stories of others that were in similar situations. They gave us the "chuchma" handed to us on a silver platter. What they didn't give us much of was "binah", how to put this all together into a structured program. They left the "daas", how to internalize and make it "personal", for us to shvitz on.

Heiliga Guard - I am positive that these chazals can even help those that are "underwater". Together, and only with Hashem's help, we must figure out how to get the Torah "submerged" by applying it to our lives. Then everyone will have the possibility to be healed through it.

Efshshar Letaken - Please please please don't ever think that "Eish Ochuloson" is talking about someone who learns Torah in "stage 3". As you know, it says in Berachos chuf bais Amud Aleph that "Ain divrei Torah mekablin Tumah". The Y"H wants us to think that way, because if we do, then we feel inadequate and wouldn't have the desire to learn. On the contrary, Hashem told us "Veshuchanty b'soch Tumasum". This applies to people at all levels.

I therefore humbly suggest that we, who are right there with Hakodosh Baruch Hu Bosoch Tumosainu, start a project together to try to relate as many chazals as we can to our struggles, even in circumstances relating to people in level three. Besyata Dishmaya, we can hopefully build a structured program based on Torah and at least reach the level of Binah, in the implementation of Torah Tavlin. Of course, Da'as will utlimately have to be worked on individually. To quote my Tanya Rebbi, "The Tanya will give you directions to the palace of the king, bring you into the palace and show you the door leading to the room where the treasure chest is found, unlock the door for you, lead you by the hand to the chest, give you the key to unlock the chest, guide your hand so the key fits into the keyhole, but ultimately you have to turn the key".

For those who might think that they are on too low of a level for this project to benefit them, please do it for me, Bardichev and others who think we can be helped by Mamorai Chazals. At the end, you will find that "Haboh L'lamaid V'nimtza Lomad".   Im Yirtzah Hashem, everyone will benefit from this project.  I suggest that we start with Yoseph Hatzaddik, since his struggle with Aishes Potiphar is from the Chumash and is also currently being discussed in the chizuk e-mails.

Please bear with me one more moment so I can end with a chizuk vort that I heard from my Tanya Rebbi. I am attempting to modify it to our situation. There was a Gerrer Chusid who lost all of his family in the Holocaust. Although he had a beard, payos and yarmulka before the war, the Nazis Yimach Shemem Vizichrom took them away from him and he didn't reclaim them after the war. He moved to Tel Aviv and after some time, he missed his Rebbi, the Imrei Emes. He decided to visit him and when the Imrei Emmes saw him, he recognized him and invited him into his study and asked him to tell his story. (Parathentically, the Imrei Emes lost half his family and 250k chassidim in the Holocaust.) After the yid told his story, both he and the Imrei Emes put down their heads and weeped for a very long time. At some point, the Imrei Emes picked up his head and stopped weeping and asked the yid a question. It says in Parshas Ekev (Tes,Yud Zayin), that Moshe picked up the luchos and broke them "Li'aynachem", in front of "your eyes". Lichoira, "Li'aynaychem" is extra since he was talking to klal yisroel? He answered that it is because the luchos were only broken in front of Klal Yisroel's eyes. In truth, there is a place where the Luchos were never broken. He applied it to the Holocaust and all the other massacres that we have endured over the years. He said that "although your family and much of my family and much of my Chasidim were killed - they were killed only in a bechina of "Li'aynachem". But there is a place where every heiliga yid still lives unbroken and totally whole."

My beloved brothers. I wish to apply this to our situation. Although we "break" our neshamos from time to time, (sometimes more often than we like and in ways even we can't believe we do), we should remmember that this is only L'aynainu. But in the sefira of Kesser, in the bechina of "kol Yisroel", our Neshamos are totally clean and whole.

Next time the Y"H wants to tell you how bad you are, send him to the Nazis. No matter what your stage, remmember "Veshuchanty b'soch Tumasum". You might not know where that place in you is, but the Pintele Yid in you knows, and is living in harmony with Hakodosh Baruch Hu as it says in the Zohar (and bought in the Tanya) on the posuk in Berashis Vayepach Bapov Nishmas Chaim, Man D'nofach M'Toicoi Nafach. .

Is the project a good idea?

Chazak V'ematz

Pintele Yid

I like the name "Reb Bruce".

Keep that hell-bent determination! Direct all your anger in life (if you have any) at your addiction.

JD,

We all feel your pain.  B"H, the above posts were filled with lots of wonderful words and I will try not to overlap too much. 

Regarding your feelings of being a fraud, think of the following words which I recently posted to one of our holy warriors:
People in these situations often get confused who the "real" self is.  Is the external self the real one or is the one who does terrible aveiros behind closed doors the real one.  We like to convince ourselves that the real self is the one behind closed doors, and the one on the outside is a fake.  We are FAKING the world.  But this is not true.  Because, when do we feel like our true selves?  Usually, the self on the outside is the one that brings satisfaction.  When we are with other people learning torah, etc.  So the fake YOU is the one behind closed doors.  Remember this.  Realizing this, will help you catapult out. It makes it much easier to simply shake off when we remind ourselves, "that is simply not me.  How could it be that I am doing this.  It makes no sense."


Regarding you issues with your wife:
I too had this issue on and off for my first few years(I am now 11 years married ).  It was always very difficult.  I agree with London that when the addiction is down, the easier things go.  And I think one of the reasons is another issue London mentioned; and that is the idea of being relaxed.  When the addiction is down, we learn to become less physical and more emotional.  When we relate to our wives with REAL love, they can feel it and become more relaxed.  I have seen this in my own life.  So give yourself patience in this area as you learn to heal.  This has been a major avodah of mine for over a year.  I realized that as much as I loved my wife, my desire for relations was more physical than emotional.  If I feel that way, my wife will feel me that way.  But, B"H i have learned to desire expressing love and feeling love.  This took honesty with my own feelings.  Before coming together, I say a kapital tehillim to ask hashem to keep my mind focused on the right intentions, for the sake of love.   

The other thing that is very important is learning to being sensitive to your wife in these situations.  When I learned to truly feel her pain and be sensitive to possible situations, it made our whole relationship a lot more positive.  Without that true caring, my wife would express resentment towards me.  B"H, it has been many years since we have experienced these issues.     

Regarding your guilt,
I had a whole list of things that I "caused" because of my addiction.  Like everyone has been saying on the thread, I had to learn to get past it. We all learned here on GYE that guilt does not lead to recovery.  It only encourages you look at yourself as worthless and therefore encourages to do more.  You must do the opposite.  To begin recovery you must remind yourself of your true self value.  You must remind yourself of your potential.  You must remind yourself that this is not who YOU really are, like I mentioned above.



London, thanks for sharing. I, too, had this opportunity of abstinence within marriage to get over lust.  During those months, I grew to such heights, I was actually nervous to be together again.  It helped me remove all thoughts of lust and physicality.  I literally became a new person.  I was able to view my wife with purer thoughts than ever.

We are all with you in your pain and looking forward to your spiritual recovery and your wife's physical recovery. 

Lover of all Jews,
Yaakov

Twelve in Twelve - SA Back to Basics

Hello All,
Back to Basics is the life-saving path to taking the 12 Steps as they were taken with high success rates in early AA in the 1940s.

The Vietnam veteran who started Back to Basics had seen people die in Vietnam and had seen people die of alcoholism. He said, "The only body count due to alcoholism I can accept is zero."

Here on GUE you can take the 12 Steps of SA with the Back to Basics method, exactly as they are being taken by the members of a face-to-face Sexaholics Anonymous (SA) group. We frum yidden in SA need to say, "We cannot afford to lose a single Yid to sex addiction"

Our SA Back to Basics, which will be available here online on this board in GUE and also in a weekly conference call (please email for details) will take you through all 12 Steps of SA, first for yourself as a sponsee and then as a sponsor, to carry the 12 Step message to others.

Unlike the "overbearing" sponsor in certain circles within the 12 step fellowships, the Back to Basics sponsor is really a co-sponsor. He is neither Boss nor Therapist and he is certainly not a Higher Power. It is not his job to "fix" the sponsee. See here and here.

This program requires a 12 week commitment.

This program can be done in one of two ways or both by:

1) Online by reading material posted twice/three times a week and posting questions or comments

2) Phone conference by calling in once weekly Wednesdays 9 PM EDT/EST with emailed/faxed sheets

Please share on this thread your opinions of this overview and any other questions for discussion.

Your friend,

Boruch
boruchshemo@gmail.com

*Back to Basics “The Original Beginners Meetings”*

*Pages 1-4*
*Introduction*

Prior to the publication of the Back to Basics book in 1997, the Beginners’ Meetings were a forgotten piece of Alcoholics Anonymous history. Very few people in recovery knew anything about the four one-hour sessions that played such an important role in the initial success of the Twelve Step movement.

These meetings were held throughout the United States and Canada during a period of time when A.A. enjoyed an 50-75 percent recovery rate from alcoholism. Newcomers quickly learned “*How it Works*.” They had conversion experiences, discovered a new way of living without alcohol, and carried this message of hope to others.

By taking the Twelve Steps in these Beginners’ Meetings, tens of thousands of A.A.’s found the spiritual solution to alcoholism. They completed the Steps in about a month. Then, in order to ensure their own sobriety, they helped others through the Steps and in turn they led Beginners’ Meetings.

This program is based on the Back to Basics book and is a re-enactment of the sessions as they were held in the mid 1940’s. The format is based solely on the author’s interpretation of the available source material.

In the early days, no two meeting leaders conducted these session in exactly the same way. The same is true today. We urge those interested in starting a Beginners’ Meeting or Group to use this format as a guide – a starting point. Feel free to modify this program, but please keep in mind that those who have remained true to the Dr. Bob “keep it simple” philosophy have had the greatest success. In addition, the General Service Conference did not exist in 1946, so there was very little discussion as to what could or
could not be used as A.A. support material in these Beginners’ Meetings.

Even Bill W., the co-founder of A.A., insisted that we let God rather than “control committees” guide us in our lifesaving efforts. In September 1945, he wrote an article for *The Grapevine* in which he stated that if A.A. was to succeed, it must be governed by God and not by rules or rule makers:

“Were we to proceed by rules, somebody would have to make them and, more difficult still, somebody would have to enforce them. ‘Rule-making’ has often been tried. It usually results in controversy among the ‘rule makers’ as to what the rules should be…

Our experience tells us these universal truths (the 12 Steps) work. (We are) ruled, not by people, but by principles… and, as most of us would say, (we are) ruled by God.”

This concept later became the cornerstone of A.A.’s Second Tradition, which states, “For our group purpose there is but one Ultimate Authority, a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.” In the 1940’s and 1950’s, God spoke to numerous A.A. Groups, and guided them to start
Beginners’ Meetings throughout the United States and Canada. The format served a very important purpose – to present the A.A. program in a way that would save as many lives as possible.

This program is excerpted from Chapters Two through Five of the Back to Basics book and is a re-enactments of the four one-hour Beginners’ Meetings as conducted in 1946. In these sessions, the author has tried to remain true to the “Big Book” as well as to the old-timers who originally led these meetings.

Please remember that in the mid-1940’s there was only one Twelve Step program and only one publication that described the spiritual solution to addiction – The “Big Book” of Alcoholics Anonymous.

If you are “*interested in a spiritual way of life*,” you are welcome to take the Twelve Steps along with us using this 1946 A.A. format. All we ask is that you take *ALL* Twelve Steps in four one-hour
sessions.”

Experience has shown that, you can recover at the same rate as the alcoholics of the 1940’s, provided you remain involved in these re-enactments of the Beginners’ Meetings for a minimum ninety days. Nothing more is required other than the “*willingness, honesty and open-mindedness*” to take the Steps, help others through the Steps and, if possible, lead the meetings.

Although a considerable amount of recovery literature has been written since the “Big Book,” it is still the only book that provides the directions on how to take the Steps. *Alcoholics Anonymous* provides clear-cut, step-by-step instructions on how to develop an intimate, two-way relationship with the “*Spirit of the Universe*.” The authors of the book state that our Creator resides “*deep down within us*” and is all knowing, all loving, and all forgiving.

The “Big Book” authors instruct us to solve our problems by relying upon a “*Power greater than ourselves*.” We surrender our lives to this Power, identify and remove the blocks that have “*shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit*,” and listen to and follow Divine guidance. The authors provide us with a simple test to separate self-will from God’s will. They emphasize that “*working with others*” is essential in order to “*keep in fit spiritual condition*.”

On page 59, the “Big Book” authors describe the solution to all of our problems, including alcoholism:

“*But there is One who has all power – that One is God. May you find Him now*

----------------------------

Please post any questions here or email

JD, welcome,

I hope you dont mind me coming from behind the mechitza. Does it help that Im old enough to be your Mom?!

I too am new here, so I will leave the brilliant advice for the real warriors. The truth is, simply by joining and asking for help, you are also now a part of the army of front line soldiers fighting the YH.

Personally, I want to address the guilt you are feeling regarding your wife. I'm sure the two of you are getting help for both medical problems, so I wont even head there. Just know you are not alone, unfortunately other frum couples are going through the same gehenim. My own daughter and son-in-law for one, with both the problems you discuss. I too felt tremendous guilt, feeling that Hashem is punishing them because of my addiction (Remember, Im a mother; we can feel guilty about anything!) Before that, I felt guilty about such issues within my own marraige.

BUT, I think this line of logic is off. If we follow the explanation that SA is an illness, then guilt should not be a part of the equation. Would you feel 'guilty' if it was Chas v'shalom diabetes for example? If your wife was the one with diabeties, would you blame her? Feeling guilty wont change anything -SEEKING 'MEDICAL' HELP WILL. The illness is Hashems part, getting medical treatment is OURS. Thats where GYE comes in - SA hospital.

Point 2: Hashem doesnt 'punish' a person for someone elses aveiros. Even if we were to go along with the line of thought that your wifes medical problems are because of your 'sins', where does that leave her? I may be way off, but the Tatte in Shamayim that I know, is chesed. If this nisayon has been sent to you as a couple, then you deserve it AS A COUPLE. For some reason, BOTH of you, together, and independantly, are being tested this way. A real cheshbon hanefesh is needed of course, but after that, you must trust that He is doing it for both of you (I purposely did not write "because" of both)

I would love to hear what everyone else on this board think of this. Am I way off?

Either way, JD, we are all davening for you, and your wife, and may Hashem send you both a refuahs hanefesh and refuahs haguf b'karov u'b'kalut.