OY VEY, What have I done. I didn't want this to become a debate. I just thought yakov's words were very strong and since I know he means Lisheim Shamayim, I wanted him to see that we ALSO mean lisheim shamayim. By accepting that different approaches work for different types of people, we can understand that it's not that GYE took a turn for the bad, it's just that we finally started emphasizing and offering a program to people who the OTHER approach doesn't work for. That's all. So I just wanted to make it clear to Yaakov that there are two distinct approaches here, 12-Steps and Torah. They can't be super-imposed one on top of the other. One is much more basic, like letting GO of the Sheretz, and it is for people who really need it. And one is the Tvillah in the Mikva for people who are ready for that. And since GYE is for EVERYONE, we make an effort to emphasize BOTH approaches very strongly. That's all I wanted to make clear to Yaakov and show him we mean Lisheim Shamayim, and that his STRONG words of "darkest days" etc... were coming simply from a missunderstanding - a misreading of what the 12-Steps are meant to be. I think Dov explained it above so beautifully.



and



Do you agree with me now Yakov, that it wasn't such a dark day after all? Is the distinction clearer now between the difference in the two approaches? One being FOUNDATIONS (like simply learning to get honest with oneself, something an addict was never able to do, and letting go of ego), and Torah being "the mikva", the path to eternal life. The 12-Steps is a spiritual AWAKENING. Torah is Spiritual GROWTH. There's a big difference between wakening and growth. We have to WAKE UP before we can start growing.

I love all of you, I just want Yakov, who is an integral and invaluable part of our network, and who supplies our forum which so much amazing chizuk and spirituality from the depths of his emotional and sensitive heart, to UNDERSTAND the GYE approach, and not consider it that we took a turn for the bad  ;D ...

So Yakov, please tell me if -after mine and Dov's explanations above, are we on the same page or not? I consider you a valuable member of the GYE staff and it is very important to me that we are all on the same page.

If still not, send me your cell phone in a PM, I want to talk to you. (I did this with Battleworn a few days ago and now we are B"H on the same page, full of respect and love for each other). It is SO important that we are all Beshalom on this forum, but sometimes it takes a little flare up to come to the truth. If Yakov understands now the difference between the two approaches and that they apply to two totally different situations/types of people, then just for that - it was worth all his strong words. Because they brought clarity to all of us instead of Yakov "holding it in" and thinking that GYE took a turn for the bad.

This is the B"M.  We are not here to debate, just give chizzuk and be informative.  

Different strokes for different folks.

These guidelines helped me, and they can help others.  Yes, I agree that a Yid that is continuing to suffer from his addiction and is looking for tachbulos how to BEAT the y"h during nisayon, will not find anything helpful here.  

But a yid that made a clear and conscious decision to never return to p**n, and is now looking to rebuild himself, can in fact find a helpful ladder.  According to boruch, (read post here) this mimics the original intent of the AA's more so than the 12 steps are being used today. I am sorry for quoting you boruch, this is how I understood you.  

The secret on how to remove yourself initially from p**n (both for Jews and non-Jews alike), I cannot fully reveal on this forum.  But if you read Borch's original post that he posted at the beginning of his recovery (please find it for me boruch), you may begin to understand more.  Also, by reading carefully batteworn's AMAZING posts recently, you will understand.  It is for people who are completely honest with themselves.  People who are willing to learn about themselves and are committed to change.  People are willing to admit that there life cannot continue this way and need to put an immediate halt to their lives as they know it.  Not people that "use the meetings as band-aids on cracked skulls" or who "do slow-motion, half-measured Step work".

Please contact me privately for more explanation.  

Dear Yaakov -
Hi and thanks for bringing up discussion about the tools of R' Fishman's site. I admit I have not read through Guard's replies nor your returns. In addition, all I have for you is my own experience, not a Torah opinion. (The truth is that had you asked me fifteen years ago - when I was still destined to have the worst years of acting out before me - I would have told you what I thought was a/the Torah opinion! Ha! Not so now, B"H, being sober today... )

It is apparent to me that R'Fishman is trying to be mekarev people who are straying from Torah the best way he knows how. His intentions are mostlikely 100% leshem shomayim, which is more than can be said for me! He approaches addiction as "straying from Torah". He uses words like atonement, tikkun, teshuva. He doesn't hide that at all.

You wrote: However, as tzvi writes in his introduction:
At the outset, we want to emphasize that this is not a complete list of the many effective remedies and atonements that our Sages have formulated for sexual transgression and self-correction, but rather a basic guideline that can serve as a foundation for the lifetime of Torah and t'shuva that must follow, in order not to return to the mistakes of the past.
You also wrote:
Many people who have been trapped with this yetzer hara have beautiful neshamas that truly seek spirituality.  However, upon throwing away our sins, many yidden do not know how to build themselves up slowly in kedusha and ruchniyus in general.

What he is concerned about is very different in purpose to the 12 steps as I experience them. He is (or you are) trying to use the 12 steps as a complete guide of avodas Hashem for lust addicts. This initially appears to be an elevation of the 12 steps, but in my opinion, it is really a gross yerida and misrepresentation. Have you or R Fishman read AA and the 12&12? (This is not a challenge, but a question, as it's important reading for this discussion.)
As I understand them, the steps/program is intended to save drunks from drinking by giving them sanity and an authentic spiritual experience (referred to as "awakening"). It just so happens that only Hashem can give that to addicts. Normal people (even yidden)seem to get it from learning, davening, books, rav's, living, etc. Most of us already used rav's, meds, shrinks, frum websites, books, (even GUE forums! -ouch!) to try and gain what we knew was sanity. We knew we were outside the door looking in at life. Well, the program was designed specifically by people who none of those avenues worked for. The program said to them: "if none of those worked for you, and you do not want to die, try G-d. The implication is "because obviously you have not tried G-d before!" This applies to frum yidden as well. The program says to them: "we will show you how we learned to have an honest relationship with your conscience, your G-d, and all people, so you will not need to reach for a drink to tolerate living any more."  It didn't say:"Nu, get religious already, chotei." (Not even Dr Bob said that, really.)
If you think I am just being synical, I ask you: Didn't you say the very same thing to yourself for years? Didn't you, from the first time you acted out against your better judgement, assume all you had to do to stop was finally really get religious, and then you'd get better? I sure did. I frequently see folks who still do.
Well, as many folks in the program will tell you, the program didn't get me religious, B"H, it got me more honest and real. Now, being a frum yid, I chose to be religious. That is my job: not my sponsors, not the program's, and not even Hashem's. Right? He says so in his own Torah, "Choose life" means (Rashi) He brings us to the good field and says "Here is the good life, choose it, my love." Then he leaves it 100% to us. The RMBM writes bechirah is 100% in each person's hands - if it is that important, why doesn't Hashem even try to get us to do right? All he gives us is the info. The rest is up to us. We are pretty much all learned yidden. We have the info, and it hasn't worked for us yet. We knowright from wrong. I trust that when the dust clears we will choose right. If we do not, it means we were lying to everyone around us about what we believed from the start, and if/when my SA meeting becomes a "chizzuk emuna venue", I'm checking out. Why would anyone go to drunks (or to perverts) to learn right from wrong? Preaching on frumkeit, spirituality, and hisBatlus by guys who are still masturbating at home is something I think i do not need. I heard (and did) enough of that myself for years.

Tying yiddishkeit directly into the steps is telling someone what they need to believe in order to get and stay sober. What does information have to do with addiction and the steps? Tell them to go to a Nefesh Hachayim or Tanya class. Don't get me wrong - I go to the mikvah, and consider it part of living right for me. Living right according to my beliefs is 100% essential for my sobriety. Living clean is the same.
For each person, even for each yid, it is very different. Defining it further in the steps cheapens it and makes recovery less accessible to those who are not just like you.
I agree with you that for me, the third step is defined by dedicating myself to doing Hashem's Will all as it is described in the Shulchan Aruch, etc. Yet this is completely irrelevant to a formula for recovery. It is only relevant to the individual addict, in my opinion, as I have tried to make clear.
If you are afraid, as are others on this forum, of chas vesholom "losing" frum addicts to 12step recovery and their dropping shemiras haTorah, I repeat that that is totally and completely their own business, and will be, whether you like it or not.
This addiction is not just spiritual poison, it is an "eil zar". Addicts find out what they really believe in recovery, and having someone frum "to cushion the fall" is really silly. We are not talking about 10-year olds here. We are all adults. Those who are really nuts will "go off", whatever you do, and those who are really frum yidden will stay frum.
I submit to you that those few frummeh yidden who get sober and go off the derech were completely lying to themselves before while they were in addiction. In fact, it is entirely possible that the tension of living as a fake, in a fake frum shell (it looks very real, I know), while being non-believing scoffers on the inside was the cause of their need to act out. I understand this attitude is painful to "do-gooders". But I submit to you that anything else than allowing an addict to go through his own journey is shoving ourselves into someone else's life at a time that they absolutely need to be allowed to discover themselves to save their very lives and often the lives of their families. It may be a comfort for the mekarev, but I find it hard to accept that it is a nachas ruach to Hashem. Let recovery be recovery, and let the steps work, if you believe in them at all. For addicts in particular, appearances are actually the problem, not the solution.

Please know that I agree we should be mekarev all yidden, especially addicts (for me they are all immediate family). But this has nothing to do with recovery. Recovery is Derech Eretz, not Torah.
With love and hope we can find clarity together - Dov

Yakov, Yakov, Lashon Chiba,

I agree 100% that shtayging in Ruchniyus is the way to go, and that Tehhilim, Tikkunim and Mikva are all wonderful things and very helpful, but they aren't the 12-Steps! Tzvi Fishman doesn't have a clue about what the purpose of the 12-Steps really is. Why is he calling it the 12-Steps? Is there some Kabala Mi'Moshe Misinai that there are 12 Spiritual Steps to recovery from addiction? No. He is trying to be Malbish true spiritual growth on top of this goyish program. He is being Malbish the fancy top floor glass onto the foundation stones. That is missing the boat completely. The 12-Steps are a foundation, and the wonderful things that you are talking about are the beautiful glass of the top floors.

Can you pull a completely unaffiliated Jew off the street and tell him to read tehilim with a broken heart, say Tikkunim and go to the Mikva? No. You have to start with the ABCs of understanding there is a G-d, and He loves us, and He is all powerful, etc... Well, it is the SAME for a real addict. Although he is an affiliated Jew, his Yiddishkeit and perception of Yetzer hara and Torah is completely warped. He needs a remake, from the foundation up; To truly start to feel that Hashem loves us, and that only He can take it away from us - but only if we are ready to start being honest with ourselves and with our fellow man, and learn to let go of self-centerdness, etc.. And when the addict gets this remake in his thinking, and he really starts to FEEL something real stir in his heart for the first time in his life, then, and only then, will he truly be able to start to say tehillim with a broken heart and do meaningful tikkunim, etc... But as long as he holds on to his old perceptions and to his addictive thinking and his selfishness and his resentments (that he is probably not even aware of), he can do all the tikkunim and say all the tehilim in the world and Hashem will say to him, "my son, first let go of the Sheretz before you try Toiveling in the Mikva".

The 12-Steps are about letting go of the sheretz.
The rest of the beautiful and powerful tools you mentioned above are about toiveling in the Mikva.
You can't have one without the other, but you also can't put them together like Tzvi Fishman did. That is a complete misunderstanding of what the 12-Steps are all about.

So on GYE we are very open minded. We are here for EVERYONE. Indeed, there are some Yidden who can jump straight to the top floors. They aren't missing Yesodos, they were just missing certain basic yediyos. But as soon as they find they are not alone, and that this is an addiction, and they learn the yesodos that Battleworn posted today, then they are ready to build their top floors. And you are such a person Yakov. And so is Battleworn and Bardichev and a few other Tzadikim here. But unfortunately, there are SO MANY others here that are missing basic Yesodos. So many others that have a real disease that can't be cured with the beautiful glass of the top floors. They keep trying and falling, trying and falling, and this goes on for months and years. So tell me, is it a dark day for GYE that we finally started to yell "FIRE" WAKE UP!" for these Yidden and explain them that their disease is a lot deeper than they think? Is it wrong for us to tell them they are tying to put band-aids on a cracked skull (as Dov says)? We want them to learn the Yesodos, not so that GYE becomes a goyish site and stays with that chas veshalom, No! But because once they HAVE these yesodos, they can FINALLY start to truly grow AS YIDDEN.

I hope I am being clear.

hoping wrote on 29 Jun 2009 23:23:

Michatv M'eliyahu Chelek 1: page 79,111,225.

If you do not have access to the sefer, I could translate it for you here.  He addresses why people (including himself) continue to smoke even though they feel terrible chest pains from smoking and know full well the harm. In each place he gives a different perspective on the addiction.   

dov wrote on 29 Jun 2009 17:11:


Hello Dov,
You describe the double edge on GUE but for some reason you do not address the double- or triple-edged sword in SA.

As, Roy K, SA founder, wrote in his personal story at the beginning of the White Book, after reading a 1974 Time Magazine article on Alcoholism (which contained a quote from an AA oldtimer on the threefold aspect of alcoholism, mental, physical and spiritual) he went to AA to get rid of his Sexual addiction. He was sober for 1 1/2 years by going to AA meetings only to go on a spree, drop out of meetings and in just three months he had more than made up for all of his 1 1/2 years of sobriety. He then came back to AA a second time, this time having learned his lesson, determined to work the 12 Steps.

So in going to SA:

1) Some use the meetings as band-aids on cracked skulls, don't use the Steps, don't work the 18 methods in the White Book chapter on Overcoming Temptation and Lust (they are just advised to cope with lust by making phone calls and go to meetings - Roy K should have kept that Chapter on Overcoming Temptation and Lust very simple according to them!!!) and they think that they can stay sober on half-measures.

2) Some choose a secular Jewish or non-Jewish sponsor with a very watered-down Spiritual message either because that is for the most part what is available in certain parts or because superficially it seems "safer" and "less threatening"

3) Some do slow-motion, half-measured Step work and they cannot figure why at best they are very flat and slow in recovery and at worst they are in constant relapse, as they pick up new acting out techniques from other members

So the problem of half-measures is as common in SA, as it is in GUE and possibly even more so, since some in SA believe that they are making a huge commitment by showing up at meetings as often once or twice daily.

And there is, in my opinion, an alternative to both the standard GUE posting and standard SA attendance, BOTH of which have the danger of covering up  for half-measures. That is to capture the essence of the early AA program. Here is the description of the Frank Amos report to Rockefeller (1938) on early AA in the original AA group in Akron:

(See DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pp. 130-31):

1. An alcoholic must realize that he is an alcoholic, incurable from a medical viewpoint, and that he must never again drink anything with alcohol in it.

2. He must surrender himself absolutely to God, realizing that in himself there is no hope.

3. Not only must he want to stop drinking permanently, he must remove from his life other sins such as hatred, adultery, and others which frequently accompany alcoholism. Unless he will do this absolutely, Smith and his associates refuse to work with him.

4. He must have devotions every morning -- a "quiet time" of prayer and some reading from the Bible and other religious literature. Unless this is faithfully followed, there is grave danger of backsliding.

5. He must be willing to help other alcoholics get straightened out. This throws up a protective barrier and strengthens his own willpower and convictions.

6. It is important, but not vital, that he meet frequently with other reformed alcoholics and form both a social and a religious comradeship.

7. Important, but not vital, that he attend some religious service at least once weekly.

The Frank Amos reports also specifically added:

The A.A. members of that time did not consider meetings necessary to maintain sobriety. They were simply "desirable." Morning devotion and "quiet time," however, were musts (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, p. 136).

In the 1940s, with the creation of Beginners meetings in many large groups they would not allow regular meeting attendance until a newcomer had first completed 4 weekly Beginners meetings taking him through the 12 Steps.

So, instead of making the meetings the "ikkar" and the essence as so many in NYC AA did, we would do well to return to what worked so well in Akron in the 1940s.

The two methods of group Step taking offered on this site offer phone support that is just as available as the phone support within SA. To me it is a no-brainer that as preparation for SA attendance we initially suggest that like it was in the 1940s, there should be no regular meeting attendance whatsoever until taking the Steps. That way the newcomer will know what is most important. The Steps ARE the program, the meetings are only a tool.

To my fellow yidden who wholeheartedly choose milchemes hayetzer:

Yiyasher Kochachem! You are in what chazal refer to as milchemes hayetzer. Your sc'har is surely tremendous, even if you fail! The nachas ruach you are bringing up is huge, even if you fail!
I, on the other hand, believe I cannot afford the "sheva yipol = tzaddik" route, when it comes to lust. I cannot afford to fail any more.
[b]I have taken the "selfish" route and decided that the risk of ruining my wife and children's lives, making an endless chillul Hashem and being in Ra that deeply, are all much too great for me.
That is the only difference I see between us! I may make less of a nachas ruach, but I believe this is the best present I can possibly offer up to my Borei today.
I don't get covered with spiritual mud cuz I don't get in the ring to wrestle with what you refer to as the menuval. When I wrestle with him i have found i just get too dirty. After  I choose to go after Hashem rather than lust, it isHashem's job what he does with him/it now,not mine, BH!
You still care about nahamah dekisufah, I do not. Will I have much sch'ar in Olam haba? Really not my business. (I hear I'm in good company as far as that idea goes, though...)
I often struggle with myself to look at things in a sensible or useful way rather than through my nutty eyeglasses (hey - they may be upside down!). The ta'avos do come and waltz into my mind, as do the images on the street and memories in my brain. I need to stop there - "ayn mevi'in mei raglayim bamikdosh, mipnei hakovod"! But that is not enough, as they will either flow back into my mind OR I'll get too dirty with the repeated struggle to push them back out. I am an addict, so I need to humbly ask Hashem to free me completely from the temptations. I also ask Him for yiras shomayim and more yiras cheit! (insurance is good!) By that point I have given the struggle completely to Hashem. All this goes on in my will. Either I'll decide to make my will whateverHashem's Will is, or I won't(Ch"v). (sound familiar?)
If I don't, I guess I'll have to sing the "sheva yipol" song. Who knows, maybe I'll get a stanza in before it's all over? Hopefully, I won't create too much reckage in the process...
My love for you and all who choose your path is tremendous, there was a time in my life that I was truly jealous of you. Now, I'm not. It is clear to me that this is my station in life.
Your friend always! - Dov

In this thread I want to discuss (among a few other things) what the “Torah approach” to dealing with lust addiction is. Of course I don’t have any sort of monopoly or superiority on Torah knowledge and everyone’s Torah input is welcome.

First of all, what is NOT the Torah approach?

The Torah approach is not “just stop doing it” and it is not to just learn more Torah and mussar.

It is not to just do some segulos and it is not to largely stay the same person you were until now.

It is not at all:



So what then is the Torah approach? The Torah approach is (1) to recognize that as the Gemoroh says in Avodah Zorah 17a: כיון דאביק בה טובא כמינות דמיא –once one got so entrenched in promiscuity, it is the same as “minus” in that that one that stops and does Teshuva, will die. I think we all agree that that’s a pretty heavy statement. Death is usually considered serious business.

So do we all have to die in order to stop?

The Rambam in Hilchos Teshuvah 2,4 provides an answer:
מדרכי התשובה להיות השב צועק תמיד לפני השם בבכי ובתחנונים ועשה צדקה כפי כוחו ומתרחק הרבה מן הדבר שחטה בו ומשנה שמו כלומר אני אחר, ואיני אותו האיש שעשה אותן המעשים , ומשנה את מעשיו כולן לטובה ולדרך ישרה וכו'  
 
According to the Rambam’s prescription the sinner indeed dies and a new, bigger and better, person is born instead. But the addict of today needs practical advice on how to accomplish this change. (It’s crucial to understand that “crying always in front of Hashem” is not something to dread. It’s the farthest thing possible from that. In fact it’s paradise, it’s חיי עולם הבה in this world. “טעמו וראו כי טוב ה' “- you have to taste it to understand)  

The Torah approach is (2) to make recovery the focus of your life.

The Torah approach is (3) to stop listening to the y’h’s lies and to internalize the following truths:

a) The purpose that Hashem sent you to this world was to work on this very issue!

b) The reason we are given a lifetime is because that's how long it takes until we get it right. And it’s not supposed to be easy!

c) Hashem doesn't make bad investments and when He gave you this mission, He knew what He was doing!

d) Everything depends on the eyes, the heart and the mouth!

e) Every effort that we make is worth infinitely more than anything in this world EVEN IF WE FELL IN THE END!

f) The only thing we have bechira on, is Ratzon (Hishtadlus is part of ratzon); success is only in the hands of Hashem!

g) Our job is to do everything that we can. What we can’t do, is not our problem. And if we can’t do anything, all we need to do is have pure Emunah and leave everything up to Hashem! The clear realization that אין עוד מלבדו has the power to bring tremendous Heavenly assistance and at the same time, it destroys the lust at it’s source!

h) The only way to fight the y"h is to learn how to avoid him!

i) Not only is this nissoyon not a hindrance to your success, but in fact it's the only way possible for you to reach your goal!

j) Hashem is totally and completely on your side, and he's NOT disgusted with you!

k) Every yerida is always a preparation for an aliyah!

l) The greatest nachas ruach for Hashem is when someone who is in the grip of the y'h still tries to fight -This is the ultimate Shechinah Betachtonim which is the purpose of all creation!

m) Hashem does not expect you do it alone! In fact isolation breads lust as it says in Mishlei לתאוה יבקש נפרד That’s why Hashem gave us this Holy Holy network!

n) Every effort end every good ratzon adds up, and at the end Hashem brings the yeshua in the zechus of everything together!

O) The great efforts that we invest in this area have unparalleled significance and have the power to merit things like Krias Yam Suf. It is called Midas Hayesod and it’s the very foundation upon which all other Avodas Hashem is built!

p) Every time we hold back from sinning, is many many times more significant than the times that we c’v stumbled. (There are a few reasons for this.) It’s on these successes that we can and must build, while being careful not to concentrate on the falls (Except lito’eles). There’s no place at all for the “All or nothing” attitude!

q) Hashem wants our hearts! We must realize how much lust distances us from Hashem and we must want to give it up completely. If we try to stop sinning and continue lusting, it won’t work. This is the very core of Torah life!

r) All the lust is only a “levush” that the y’h puts on to our longing for Hashem. At the source, it’s holy of holies – a powerful all-encompassing yearning to be close to Hashem. By constantly fulfilling this inner desire and always developing a closer and closer relationship with Hashem, the lust will disappear. It also follows, that by weakening this “levush”, the inner desire (the longing for Hashem) will be able to shine through. We therefore need to work on both aspects at the same time.  

s) We need to have “Bitachon” that Hashem will save us if we do our part. Bitachon means that we need to be calm and rely on Hashem, while at the same time putting in maximum effort. Stress is detrimental to your battle, besides being a contradiction to Bitachon. Effort is our only duty, results are up to Hashem! It also follows that even if we didn’t “succeed”, if we tried our hardest then it was indeed a total success!

{Impotant note: To a "goyishe kup" Hishtadlus-effort is a contradiction to Bitachon. If it's all in Hashem's hands, why fight? But we know that it's quite the opposite. Hashem gives us the nissoyon, because our fighting is worth so much in his eyes. This fighting is a very integral part of the purpose of creation. The value of one second of fighting is  more than the value of the whole material world in it's entirety. And it has the terrific power of bringing us so close to Hashem and His Torah! It's the stress and the notion of כחי ועוצם ידי that we have to get rid of.}

t) We are Holy! Even if we sinned thousands of times, inside we are purely good. The obvious proof to this is that we are looking to brake free. The y”h’s main objective when he makes us sin, is so that he can thereby “prove” to us that we are lowlifes. That way, he can weaken our avodas Hashem. We need to expose the fallacy, and keep reminding ourselves how holy we are!

u) We were chosen by Hashem for this sensitive mission (of revealing the Shechinah in the darkest places). We are Hashem’s special force soldiers and we should be extremely proud of it! We need to embrace this mission with great Simcha Shel Mitzvah and remember that we are emissaries of Hashem Himself!

v) When one sins, he is not “annoying” Hashem, rather he is hurting himself and distancing himself from the Source of all good. It’s not “me and the lust” with Hashem on the outside, rather it’s “me and Hashem” and the lust is the outsider.

w) When faced with a test, we must always think “What does Hashem want from me at this moment”. The past and the future are not the point. When we realize that every moment is given to us by Hashem for the purpose of doing His will in that moment, without any dependence on the past and future, there’s no room at all for “yi’ush”

x) If we find ourselves in the midst of a fall and we stop right in the middle, the accomplishment is even greater!

y) If we were doing well and we c”v had a fall, the gain was not lost. All we have to do is learn from the fall, bounce back up and continue going even higher.

z) If you searched hard and long and Davened your heart out for so long and still couldn’t find help. This should not surprise you. Because Hashem in His infinite wisdom knew, that for our good there needs to be a tremendous all-encompassing darkness before Moshiach comes. (I’ll be”H discuss this at length below) And by doing what we can and not giving up even in that situation, we are accomplishing the greatest “tikkun” in history and THAT is what will bring Moshiach!

(If someone could volunteer to compare this list with the GYE attitude and prepare a list of what's here that's not there, it would be a big zikui harabim. Thank You!)

The Torah approach is (4) to develop an intimate relationship with Hashem. R’ Pinkus Zt’l used to say all the time: “Hashem is not waiting (to bring the Geula) for us to be more midakdek in Halacha – we’re doing well enough in that. Hashem is waiting for us to have an intimate relationship with Him.” (Whatever is true about the Geula of Klal Yisrael, is also true for each ones personal Geula)

The Torah approach is (5) to make use of any tool that can be effective.


The Torah approach is (6) to step up your Avodas Hashem in all areas as the Rambam, Quoted above, says.

The obvious question is: If this is the Torah approach, why isn’t that common knowledge? Why do so many Rabonim not know all this? The answer is – of course- that this information was never organized or codified. Widespread addiction is a totally new phenomenon among Torah Jews. In fact, I’m sure that if you would ask a Talmid Chochom from a few generations ago, what a lust addict should do, he would say that he should cry until he dies like the simple meaning of the Gemoroh quoted above.

It’s not, c”v, by accident, that this hit us unprepared. To the contrary, it’s the very essence of “chevlei Moshi’ach” Before we quote some sources, let’s look at a moshol. We know that the holy avos, served Hashem with perfect mesiras nefesh. We can’t fathom at all, their total devotion to Hashem.

And then what happens? Hashem sends the family down to Egypt and they sink down to, one second short of, totally complete Tumah! Some of us might have said: “You see where that path gets you. Absolutely nowhere! Everything is gone – total loss!!!”

But looking back we know that it was all a preparation for the greatest thing that ever, ever happened in this world. Hashem married us at Har Sinai!!! Please try to really contemplate that before reading farther!

The same exact thing is happening right now. The Zohar says that before the great light of Moshiach comes, it will first get incredibly “dark”

The Gemoroh in Sandedrin 98b says: אמר עולא ייתי ולא איחמיניה וכן אמר רבה ייתי ולא איחמיניה  and later on וכן אמר רבי יוחנן ייתי ולא איחמיניה The literal translation is “He should come and I shouldn’t see him” In other words they were saying that they don’t want to be alive when Moshi’ach comes. And the Gemoroh goes on to say that Hashem Himself will “kaviyochol” suffer great pain like a woman in childbirth. The מהרש'א explains: דמדמה ישראל בעת גאולתן לקטן שנולד והקב'ה מולידן as we find in many pesukim. And he continues: וכמו שהיולדת מצטערת עצמה בחבלי לידתה כן הקב'ה מצטער כביכול בחבלי משיח שיהיו אז לישראל The Gemoroh is telling us that our pain is going to be so intense, that כביכול it will be as if Hashem is in labor. This is more than it says about any other time-of-suffering that Am Yisroel ever experienced.

Although, as mere –very limited- mortals, we can’t understand why it has to be this way, we can indeed understand the mechanics of it. In order to merit the unfathomable light/pleasure of the Tikun Hashalem, we first have to exert superhuman efforts to search for that light while it’s hidden in the darkest of the dark.

The harder we search, the more rewarding it will be and the more we will appreciate it. Of course if we were given the choice we might say “no thank you”, spare me the pain and I’ll have less pleasure afterwards. But Hashem in His infinite mercy doesn’t give us a choice. Instead he just gives us what’s best for us without asking for our shortsighted opinion.

All this is a most basic rule of nature. Night comes before day and קליפה קודם לפרי the shell comes before the “fruit” And the bigger the fruit is the bigger the shell seems to be. It’s really not nearly as big as it looks, because it’s just a shell. But boy does it seem huge.

When Moshiach comes it will be ומלאה הארץ דעה את ה' כמים לים מכסים Such a great all-encompassing light, such a perfect state of existence, that there won’t even be the slightest possibility of any pain! There won’t even be the slightest possibility of lack of pleasure! Because, we will have such an open connection, with The Source of all good and all pleasure. Anything that we try to imagine is not even a thousandth of it!

And the only way to get there is to first deal with the huge shell that is covering that great all-encompassing light. Think about the size of this קליפה. It’s big enough to hide that great complete all-encompassing light! That’s absolutely mind-boggling. But to us it’s nothing new. We had the “honor” to get to know this קליפה intimately.

We were chosen by Hashem for the greatest mission of all! To crack this great קליפה by not giving up, even in the darkest of times. Even when everything seems hopeless. Klal Yisroel seems to be a bunch of dry bones (as illustrated in the prophesy of Yecheskel Hanavi) we can search and search and seem to get nowhere. The world is totally flooded with the lowest levels of tumah כמים לים מכסים, the pain and darkness are so great – completely beyond description. AND WE JUST DON’T GIVE UP! HOW STUBBORN COULD A PERSON BE? It’s our job to answer that question. And we are doing a great job at it! This is the final frontier. This is what will bring the Tikun Hashalem!


I heard that R’ Nosson the pupil of R’ Nachman of Breslov said about the Gemoroh in Sanhedrin quoted above: “They were afraid of chevlei Moshiach because they didn’t have R’ Nachman. But now that we have R’ Nachman we need not fair. Because he gave us the tools, to survive even in the darkest times." I’m not Breslover chasid and R’ Tvi Meir taught me how to understand such statements in context. R’ Nosson was a Talmid Muvhak of R’ Nachman, so to him (and to most Breslover Chasidim) R’ Nachman is everything. But to us, the bottom line is, that in the later generations Hashem provided us with what we need to survive.

He didn’t give it to us on a silver platter. That would have defeated the whole purpose. But it most definitely exists. It exists in the words of all sorts of Tzadikim from various generations. It exists by a few “Yechidei segulah of our generation. And with this Holy network, we can work together to organize it and spread it to the world. There’s a lot of work to do. The question is do we care enough to do what we can?

                -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The question was already asked, how do we go about developing an intimate relationship with Hashem? Of course the answer goes on forever just like applying it goes on forever. But perhaps we can try to give some outline on how to start.

The first step is to want to develop such a relationship. That means to come to understand how miserable it is to be distant from Hashem. How utterly foolish it is to do things that distance us from Hashem. How everything else out there, is nothing more than an empty illusion.  
We have a head-start in this, because we saw where it leads to. We experienced how fake it all is. We learned the hard way how desperately pathetic “life without Hashem” is.

The second step is to begin to “live” whatever it is that we are doing. Perhaps start with any one part of the day. On that one part of the day, concentrate on what you’re doing. Whether you’re saying a Brochoh, spending time with your spouse/child, eating or whatever. Think what you’re doing. E.g.: I’m feeding this body that Hashem gave me in order to serve him. Concentrate on the fact that you are doing Hashem’s will. If you’re saying a Brochoh, concentrate on what you’re saying.    

It takes a lifetime to perfect this, but as soon as you start working on it, you start reaping the benefits. Also here, we have a major advantage. We learned the hard way where being passive leads to. We know that the y’h is always ready, very willing and able to take the steering wheel. With a bit of “hisbonenus” we come quickly to the conclusion that we have to start being active instead of just watching life go by.  

Another first step, is to talk to Hashem often in a very personal way. R’ Nachman, the Chofetz Chaim and other Tzadikim stressed this very much. The Chofetz Chaim himself spent -literally- hours every day doing this together with cheshbon hanefesh.

In general we have a great advantage in that as soon as we decide that we want to give up all lust and totally return to Hashem, we become ba’alei teshuva. This automatically brings us close to Hashem as it says גדולה תשובה שמגעת עד כסא הכבוד. We can go on forever about this alone; so I think I’ll stop here.

The Torah approach is (7) to make full use of מחשבה דיבור ומעשה - thought, words and action all at the same time time, in order to effect the all-encompassing transition from "Baal aveiroh" to "Baal Teshuva"; and in order to redirect all our energy towards developing an intimate relationship with Hashem. For more on this see:
rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=614.0
 

Wow, I am amazed at your resolve! I hope you succeed, but if not, don't be afraid to join an SA meeting, if you are determined and sincere, you will be pleasantly surprised. Did you search on www.sa.org for an SA meeting in your area?

Rabbi Twerski once wrote to YOU, Ilan:

Dear Ilan,

Chazal say, "Tzoras rabbim chatzi nechama." I don't know if it applies to this. Yours was the fourth contact of its kind this week. Internet addiction has become epidemic among the frum men AND women! If you have a fax machine, I can send you copies of letters just like yours.

You are right. Promises don't help and nedarim don't help. Psychiatry and psychology are not of much help. It is very much an addiction over which self-controls don't work.

For alcohol and drug addiction, there are support groups of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous. For sexual addiction there is Sexaholics Anonymous.

A frum person will say, "No way I can expose my problem by going to a meeting." I understand. There is a very fine, very frum young man who is in recovery from this problem. He'll be glad to talk with you. He does not need to know your name. The most effective help can come from someone who has overcome this problem. I am away from home today. Tomorrow I'll e-mail you his number. You can call him and you will remain anonymous.

Twerski

My accountability partner and I have not been able to find an SA group within the vicinity of Jewish Johannesburg. I have never been to an SA meeting, but I imagine that many peeople there commit adultery and do things with Zonot. I am not sure if it is appropriate to attend those meetings anyway but I'm sure many of you have a different take on the issue. We feel that if there is an interest amongst gue members who live in Johannsburg to meet once a week at a neutral venue to discuss the 12 steps and p-rn addiction then please will you reply to this post. There is a great likelihood that we will know one another personally. For this reason, anyone who would come to this group must keep his attendance a secret and also undertake not to divulge the identity of anyone else in the group. The idea is to create an accountability group that Reb Gue wrote about in the attitude book. If anyone has any suggestions how we could turn this idea into reality please post a reply. Emes (My accountability partner) is attempting to involve a well known psychologist to come to some meetings. Reb GUE, if you have any suggestions then please load them on! 

Dearest Holiest Yakov,

Our removal of the 12-Torah steps from www.jewishsexuality.com from our "12-Step" section on our site was because Boruch claimed that approach completely misses what the 12-Steps are all about. Here is what Boruch wrote me, and we quoted it in Chizuk e-mail #444:

Our instant-gratification society has ignored the original prescription of AA which was ALL about Group, sponsor and working the steps and has just taken the steps in isolation. Who needs a Group and sponsor if I can just read a list of steps on my own? Why, we can find lists of the steps all over the web and many think that there is some value in the steps on their own.

We need to go back to encouraging the old AA system of group, sponsor and working the steps. And for those who are not ready for that yet, we need to encourage them to read the Big Book.

But we have not done that yet on Guardureyes, and we are paying the price without even realizing it. I can give you one excellent, well intended example of where we have totally lost our way.

On our site we have The 12 Torah Steps (copied from www.jewishsexuality.com). What could be better than that? Torah and the Steps wrapped in one!!! The best of Bill W. and Breslov. It seems like the perfect combination. Self-help, spirituality and kedusha all rolled into one. And all in an easy, step by step guide.

I am going to say something that will sound extreme, but once you see it, it will be as clear as day.

In producing the Torah Steps we have totally lost our way. We have shown that we never had the first idea of what the Steps are. We have turned the Steps into something they were never intended to be, into something that cannot work for the majority of Frum addicts. All because we did not read the Big Book.

When you read the Big Book you will see that the steps are all about Foundations. Foundations that are common to almost all religions.
They are not protim (details). None of them.
They are not even klolim (general rules). None of them.
They are yesodos (foundations). All of them.
They are Yesodos so basic, that most religions - with all their stupidities - recognize their universal truths. They are equal and applicable to every human being.

The alcoholic and addict needs to begin life anew. He needs to build new foundations for a new existence. He has to start his entire building over again. (We will address "why this is so" in tomorow's e-mail IY"H). And for this, he needs yesodos - foundations, like Cinder Blocks. You don't use decorative ceramics for foundations, you don't even use regular bricks. You need Foundation Stones. You don't use klolim (general rules) for foundations, and you certainly don't use protim (details) for foundations.

"Abandoning Lust" is a foundation stone. That belongs in the steps of the sexaholic. That is clear and simple. It is equal and relevant to everyone.

How about saying tikkunim and mikva (as mentioned in the Torah steps)? As much as they are an integral part of the path to holiness, are these foundations that are so basic that all rational religions agree on them? Do they apply equally to all human beings?

Of course not. Even for those who practice them, they are not foundations. They are not even general rules, they are "details". It is like building a foundation on decorative glass.

It is important to realize that in promoting these "lists", we undermine the whole building. Because the foundation of this tower that we need to fight the yetzer hara has to be steps so simple, so basic, that you can do all 12 steps wherever you are, in any time or place, without prerequisites of any inherent spiritual levels. Steps that are such foundations that everyone gets them, even non-Jewish drunks.

And the same goes for other details mentioned in the 12 Torah steps such as; stringencies within marriage, admitting sins to a Torah scholar, not gazing at forbidden sights, Torah study, yiras shomayim and shmiras hamitzvos. Of course we should aim for kedusha (holiness), but kedushah is the top floor. It is not the foundation. Woe to those who try and use their top floor materials to build their foundation. By all means, start working on holiness right now and today, build yourself an entire building if you can, from the foundations all the way to the top floor, in one day. But whatever you do, don't use your top floor as your foundation.

Like we saw in Chizuk e-mail #439 (on this page), the Rash Mikinon learned all the hidden secrets of Kabbalah, but how did he daven? Like a one-day-old baby.

We should indeed aspire to reach all levels of holiness, Fear of Heaven, Love of G-d and Torah learning. But how should we come back to Hashem? Like a simple drunk, using the 12 steps of 1939.

I think that this Pasuk in Koheles 7:29 says it best: "Asher asa ha'Elokim es ho'odom yoshor, veheima bikshu cheshbonos rabbim - G-d has created man straight, yet they have sought many calculations (complications)".

The Yetzer Hara knows that once he can make it complicated he will win.

So let's keep it simple and return to what worked.

Just yesterday, I asked Rabbi Twerski if he had time to weigh in on our discussion in the thread called "Torah and the 12-Steps" and he replied as follows:

Many years ago, I was asked, Why don't we have a recovery program based on Mussar? I wrote the book "Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!" with such a program, and at the end of the book I said, "turn the page and read the 12 steps." It's the same thing.
Twerski

So if you, Yakov, want to do a great service to us all, and to the whole of Klal Yisrael, I suggest buying that book, reading it well, and then posting a NEW version of the "12-Steps-Torah Version" like you did here above, but based on that book. I trust Rabbi Twerski a lot more than Tzvi Fishman  ;D

With all my love and respect,
Guard

BH I was sober yesterday, but last night I could not fall asleep, this is a dangerous time for me, and I engaged in some lustful fantasy.  I was able to share this with my sponsor this morning.  I also participated in the UK early morning sobreity renewal this morning.  The biggest difficulty I have now is food, my lust for food is really strong now, and I have major anxieties about putting this down, even though I know it will kill me physically, and will lead me back into sexual lust.  Addictions are only a symptom of my problem, I have to work on whats going on underneath, the spritual misconnection, my character defects, my fears and anxieties, learn to trust in Hashem day by day and accept His will.  I am now off to a lunch time OA meeting to try and work on my food issues.

Dear Yoish,

We get cries for help exactly like yours every day, by e-mail and on the forum. Tzuras Rabim Chatzi Nechama    And that is why we created the GYE handbooks (links below). If you read them well, from beginning to end, slowly, and try to implement what you read, you will find the answers within them to enable you to completely turn your life around. I cannot answer you in one short post, so I implore you, if you value your life in this world and the next, at least do at least this for yourself. You're worth it.

Also, join the daily Chizuk e-mail lists to get fresh chizuk every day, and post away on this forum. You will get tons of daily Chizuk and support. This disease can't be beat alone. It works best when you get out of isolation!

And we just started yesterday a 12-Step phone group that would be a tremendous step in the right direction for you and help you turn your life around. PLEASE JOIN DUVID CHAIM'S daily group. You can see how to join 4 X a week at noon, by scrolling to the bottom of this page. Not only will you learn the secret of the 12-Steps - which is known to be the world's most powerful program for beating addiction having helped millions world wide, but joining the group will be another way of GETTING OUT OF ISOLATION and connecting with others who are going through what you are. This is VERY important.

We also have a hotline on this page, where you can call and speak to someone with experience.

Let me tell you a little about the two GuardYourEyes handbooks. They lay down the cornerstone and foundation of our work, and they make our network much more effective and helpful for people.

You see, until now, people would often get "lost" when coming to our website, not knowing what tips and techniques to try. For example, a beginner wouldn't jump straight into therapy or 12-Step groups, while on the other hand, someone whose addiction was more advanced wouldn't be helped by the standard tips of "making fences" putting in "filters" etc... So it was essential to develop a handbook which details all the techniques and tools to dealing with this addiction in progressive order. Now with these handbooks, anyone can read through and see what steps they've tried already, and if those steps haven't worked, they can continue on through the handbook where the steps become progressively more powerful and "addiction-oriented".

And the second handbook, called the "Attitude" handbook, can also help anyone, no matter what level of addiction they may have. Often people write in to us saying that had they only known the proper outlook & attitude that we try and share on the GuardYourEyes network when they were younger, they would have never fallen into an addiction in the first place! So we hope that through this handbook, many addictions will be prevented.

The handbooks are PDF files, set up as eBooks, and they have bookmarks and hyper-links in the Index, to make them easy to navigate.

Make sure to read them, they contain a wealth of information on beating this addiction! And I'd love to hear your feedback on them...

Note: You might want to print them out to read away from the computer. Keep in mind though, that if you do this, you won't be able to click on the many web links in the articles. But you can always come back to them later. The truth is, it's anyway good to go through the whole handbook once without clicking on links, just to get an overview of all the tools available. Once you did that, you can start again from tool #1 and read each tool through more carefully, click the links and study each technique and assess whether you have tried it fully yet or not...

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

Dear NeedSomeHelp,

I am the admin of the forum and website. Welcome to our community!! Once you've arrived, there's no turning back. Everyone here will just grab a hold of you and pull you up, up, up!

We get dear Yidden like you joining our community every day. That is why we created the GYE handbooks (links below). If you read them well, from beginning to end, slowly, and try to implement what you read, you will find the answers within them to enable you to completely turn your life around. Although you made a strong decision yesterday and deleted all your contacts and p*rn, the nature of addiction is so insidious that you should not trust yourself for a moment. I implore you, if you value your life in this world and the next, to read the handbooks carefully and install a solid internet filter right away and give away the password to me (see this page for instructions). You're worth it.

Also, join the daily Chizuk e-mail lists to get fresh chizuk every day, and post away on this forum. You will get tons of daily Chizuk and support. This disease can't be beat alone. It works best when you get out of isolation!

And we just started yesterday a 12-Step phone group that would be a tremendous step in the right direction for you and help you turn your life around. PLEASE JOIN DUVID CHAIM'S daily group. You can see how to join 4 X a week at noon, by scrolling to the bottom of this page. Not only will you learn the secret of the 12-Steps - which is known to be the world's most powerful program for beating addiction having helped millions world wide, but joining the group will be another way of GETTING OUT OF ISOLATION and connecting with others who are going through what you are. This is VERY important.

Let me tell you a little about the two GuardYourEyes handbooks. They lay down the cornerstone and foundation of our work, and they make our network much more effective and helpful for people.

You see, until now, people would often get "lost" when coming to our website, not knowing what tips and techniques to try. For example, a beginner wouldn't jump straight into therapy or 12-Step groups, while on the other hand, someone whose addiction was more advanced wouldn't be helped by the standard tips of "making fences" putting in "filters" etc... So it was essential to develop a handbook which details all the techniques and tools to dealing with this addiction in progressive order. Now with these handbooks, anyone can read through and see what steps they've tried already, and if those steps haven't worked, they can continue on through the handbook where the steps become progressively more powerful and "addiction-oriented".

And the second handbook, called the "Attitude" handbook, can also help anyone, no matter what level of addiction they may have. Often people write in to us saying that had they only known the proper outlook & attitude that we try and share on the GuardYourEyes network when they were younger, they would have never fallen into an addiction in the first place! So we hope that through this handbook, many addictions will be prevented.

The handbooks are PDF files, set up as eBooks, and they have bookmarks and hyper-links in the Index, to make them easy to navigate.

Make sure to read them, they contain a wealth of information on beating this addiction! And I'd love to hear your feedback on them...

Note: You might want to print them out to read away from the computer. Keep in mind though, that if you do this, you won't be able to click on the many web links in the articles. But you can always come back to them later. The truth is, it's anyway good to go through the whole handbook once without clicking on links, just to get an overview of all the tools available. Once you did that, you can start again from tool #1 and read each tool through more carefully, click the links and study each technique and assess whether you have tried it fully yet or not...

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

Hello,
Just signed up to this forum last night, and recieved my acceptance e-mail today--this is my first post now.
I'm 20 years old. First discovered masturbation when I was 17. At that point in my life I had severe psycholigical complications, depression, O.C.D. anxiety, ---you name it.... I was constantly in physical and mental pain. I used masturbation to get "out of my misereble self--and to numb the pain"--to an extreme, doing so multiple times in a 24 hour period.  I developed a tremendous psycholigical and biochemical "dependance" on it.  There were spans where the only things I had to look forward to in my life was my next cigarette, and next sexual fantasy. Baruch Hashem, my psychological illnesses have greatly subsided and I've resumed a happy and productive life. BUT, my dependency on masturbation----(and of course surfing porn---to replenish the vast images that I constantly need to stimulate myself....) has remained--and it's like a big dark shadow which hovers over me.  It's almost exactly like the guy who was perscribed pain-killers after surgery---overused them a bit--and now although physically in good health--still has a horrible dependency on the drugs. When I'm around my pairs I feel greatly inferior to them, thinking in my mind, "I'm sure he 'aint a sex-addict like I am."  I also feel very ashamed like, "If only he would know what I do behind closed doors at night...."
And the vicious cycle:
I have a great day, davening, learning, helping others, feeling good about myself, and then night time rolls around and I need my daily "fix" of sex, so I engage in an awesome fantasy/masturbation/porn "extravagansa"---which I'm excellent at creating due to my vast vast experience in the field, but then the pleasure is over, I feel like crap about what I've just done, go to sleep on a horrible note, be really tired and depressed the next day---which fuels a bigger need for a fix, go even more over the top that night, feel like garbage even more.....next day.....next day...... until @**#!

I'm really not as misreble as I sound. I'm just really spilling it out for the first time so it seems brutal.
So, I'm looking for help in any which way, shape, or form.....
Thank You,
Yoish.