chosemyshem wrote on 12 Jun 2025 15:02:

I doubt Dov would give his haskomo to that, shame he isn't around these parts any more to respond. Either way I beg to differ. Powerless over lust means powerless over lust. Same goes with our lives. And there's absolutely nothing intellectual about it; if you're trying to understand the 'concept' or see if it fits with your hashkofo and worldview, you've taken it wrong. We're talking in the most practical way possible. We've been through all the philosophy and intellectual stuff more times then we can count, we're convinced that there's bechiro, if there's a nisoyon we must have the ability to overcome it etc etc, intellectually we're sure we weren't created doomed to sin, but none of that changed the facts an iota, this lust thing had beaten us. With all the tools and advice and therapy and GYE and thinking we had done and that we could dream of, practically we were hopelessly helpless when it came to lust. As long as we could manage our lives together with our lust, 'powerlessness' made no sense to us, after all it didn't seem 'intellectually correct'. But the minute the consequences started to overtake us, being intellectually correct wasn't going to help us. We simply didn't have the power to pull ourselves out of the pit. On the most simple and practical level, we had to admit we were powerless over lust and our lives had become unmanageable.

When I joined SA I was also bothered by your points on an intellectual level, but I had to put that aside, leave it as a question.The fact was I had a deep awareness that I couldn't manage this thing, I'd always end up going back out there. (You also start your post with this realization, but then get all caught up with the intellectual.) So I started doing what others had done and stop trying to manage it myself, give up the 'iwillmanage' attitude and instead turn it over to a Power that can manage my life and keep me sober. When I turn to Him with sincere humility, giving up my self-will and my desire to be the one in charge, turn to others with honesty, relinquishing my desire to give off a false self image, and look to be of service to others and stop living a selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred, self, self, self type of life, I find that I do have the power to stop. I don't think any of that's a cop out at all.

And who knows, maybe that's the answer to the 'intellectual problem'. Maybe I really do have the power, if I live life the way He meant me to, rooted in the reality of being a creation, and thereby a servant, of God, created to do my part whilst being fully conscious that I'm just a part of a vast interconnected existence of which I'm in no way the centre and which doesn't revolve around me. Today I understand that I'm powerless only in as much as I'm living a selfish life, disconnected from God and others, if I let all end in myself, if I take not in order to give.

It's also true that I may be powerless over lust, but I'm responsible for the first drink. Once sober, if I decide to take a drink of lust, that’s on me. It's my responsibility to stay involved in sobriety and follow my sponsor’s suggestions. It is my responsibility to cultivate and grow willingness. I can’t cop out behind a smokescreen of powerlessness.

It's turning into too much of a ramble. Maybe that's what happens when I try standing in for Dov 

(Agav, I don't think it's possible to get a true idea of what the program is about from the experience of just one member, even someone with a sobriety as strong as Dov's. The best way to truly get it is to do it).

​ For too long I've been struggling with Porn addiction, and I've long ago lost count that "this time will be my last time". I hate what this addiction has done to me, the time and seed I've wasted and the inability to control my self for more than a few months at most at a time.​I'm writing here calling for help from you GYE community to aid me in making sure that I stick to this 90+ day challenge and rid myself of this awful sin

BH. Life is quite the learning experience - and your physical reality doesn't know which class its signing up for next. 

I collected pirushim and wrote a lot of my own on Perek 34 of Tehillim - the kapital for addicts, mentally ill, the imprisoned, or anyone for whom life has reached unmanageable levels (or a loved one), and is forced to just turn to Hashem alone. Several years ago, this was still somewhat of an intellectual exercise and hadn't reached my core. Now I am feeling the last of my ability and desire to manage/control life slipping away, and I need to turn to Hashem just to get through each day and hope that somehow Hashem will make things work out.

That's how I should have naturally felt in the height of my addiction, and really should feel now about it. Ok, so now the main focus of my utter helplessness is in my wife's health and the constant demands on me, while her requests to me feel, and from the opinion of someone who saved her when I had to carry her into his office she was so gone, that she is harming herself by me taking care of her the way she is asking.

But with this experience, I can reflect on the utter helplessness I have in life in general, and about my lust challenges. I thought I can change the world, when I can't even manage myself. Delusional much? But all can work out if Hashem wants it to, and he can heal me and give me purpose and ability to do in life as He wishes. Obviously I need to put in my own work.

And Hashem appreciates and loves each individual, as he or she is. Point brought home by some of the many trying to help that are clearly not emotionally/mentally healthy, those flaws can come out as well, but I can appreciate the heartfelt gestures of kindness even as its more like I'm offering the support than receiving the support (like the Bardak - Bonei Olam chicken video).

Overwhelming to have a chat of 100 people saying Tehillim for my wife and providing financial support. There goes my macho bravado facade. I just need to be present and grateful.

azivashacheit101 wrote on 12 Jun 2025 14:11:

Interested in hearing where this goes.

As an outsider to SA, I always thought the powerlessness thing made sense. Clearly, I have zero self control. My struggles with porn have taught me that well.

And so but while I acknowledged that emotionally, it wasn't something I could accept intellectually. And it struck me that my emotional acknowledgment that I cannot control myself didn't seem very healthy.

The way I've come to understand this, entirely through Dov's lectures, writings, and phone conference, is that it's ridiculous to say we are completely powerless over ourselves. That's a cop-out. He explained we are powerless over life. Life is always going to have it's things that rub us the wrong way. As addicts, our response is lust, but it's not lust we are powerless over, it's life.

And this of course makes perfect sense, since it's a tenet of our faith that G-d is in absolute control of our lives and everything that happens to us is precisely calculated and for the good. So the solution is to learn how to surrender your life to G-d's will - as made manifest by, well, your life. To stop being fearful and resentful, and to accept G-d's will with joy (to do his will as our own is not a christian idea, it's a mishna). 

We also cannot control lust. That is to say, we cannot use it in measured amounts. We can't watch five minutes of porn and then walk away and forget about it like others can do. But the ikkar is the powerlessness over life​, not lust.

Does that make sense? Isn't that radically different than saying we are powerless over ourselves/lust?

This Tiver is absolutely unstoppable. I don’t see any hope. Every time I think about it, all I feel is despair. I can’t imagine ever not being addicted.

@eerie - Thank you for this important topic.
@chosemyshem – Your post is spot on!! 

Just to share a few thoughts I've had on this topic:

1. Many of us are begeder חולי נפש.
The degree of temptation and shmutz that we are exposed to nowadays is not the "normal" YH that has been lingering around for the past many years. It is on a level where a) we are brainwashed with false ideas and b) we so easily become addicts to some extent. See the Rambam (שמנה פרקים פרק ג-ד) where he compares mental health to physical health. The Torah teaches us "the golden middle way", how to live and maintain a balanced lifestyle. This only works for healthy-minded people who live in a healthy society. In our generation we often need some extra help to get out of our bad traits, just like we take medicine for a physical illness.

2. We are simply not learning the way we are meant to.
a) Many people don't learn in a way that suits them. When a person truly connects to his learning, it occupies his mind, satisfies his Neshomo and subdues the YH. (Both natural and Segulah)
b) Learning just a few blatt Gemara in an entire winter Zman does not do the job. Learning 30+ Dafim does. One feels a tremendous סיפוק and has less interest in what the the YH has to offer.

Just a little 'hack'... : Of course there is so much good that one gains from the Yeshiva years; however, the Yeshiva system is a "one size fits all" system. Not many Magidei Shiur actually try to guide each and every talmid individually to discover the style of learning that suits him. There is an emphasis on Iyun, lomdes, Shiurim etc., but not so much on being ממלא כריסם with ש''ס ופוסקים. I personally discovered my way of learning only after the Yeshiva years and have בס''ד been able to feel the מתיקות התורה and to feel a tremendous סיפוק. As Chosemyshem said: it's a gift from Hashem.
It is so upsetting though, to see how many people have completely left learning just because they didn't feel the מתיקות of learning Torah. If only they knew that they can also feel it; it is not their problem – they simply did not fit in to the mainstream learning style. If only they had been guided to learn with a Hespek, or Halachah orientated, they would be Torah-dik Balabatim.

3. We are actively pursuing the free life... בשרירות ליבי אלך
I know it's wrong. I know it's assur. I know I shouldn't be doing this behind closed doors... I am aware it's not befitting a Ben-Torah... But still.... I want the free life. Billions of people are doing what they like... so why can't I?? I want to be פורק עול... I am not interested in what the Torah has to offer.
When this is what drives me, then I am not even allowing the Torah to enter the picture, so how should the Torah affect my life?? 

SA fellowship is extremely important. While the actual meat and potatoes of the program are the 12 steps, fellowship has many benefits including but not limited to:

• Getting out of our own heads
• Bringing our lust to the light (in other words speaking about it clearly and not hiding "light kills lust")
• It helps us get sober
• It helps us stay sober
• It reminds us what acting out did to us when we see newcomers still suffering
• It helps us do the work as a group instead of alone
• It keeps us on top of our game and reminds us to actually work the program
• Sharing our emotional pains and discomforts instead of medicating them with porn and masturbation
• Sharing our defects of character and shortcomings which break the power they have over us
• Keeps us from getting lonely and sinking into despair
• Helps us help others which in turn keeps us sober
• Helps us internalize how insane our acting out is when we hear ourselves speak it out to another

There are many other benefits to participating in the fellowship of the program which makes it a crucial part of recovery.
GYE members who are not addicts (and also the ones who are addicts and did not yet come to the realization that they will not get sober without actually joining SA in person) can still use this tool to a smaller degree. There are many members who read posts on the forum but do not post on it themselves. Those people would greatly benefit if they come out of their shells and actually start posting. You will join the GYE family and feel a part of rather than apart from. People benefit from posting about their own struggles and also by helping others such as by leaving encouraging comments and giving helpful advice.

Those who are already posting on the forum can benefit to an even greater degree by posting in other ways. If you mainly post your own struggles (both lustful and in general) continue doing that but also consider starting to help others by leaving encouraging comments, thank yous and karma plusing. Those who are mostly helping others will benefit greatly by starting to post about their own struggles and bringing it to the light. Don't only post about sexual struggles, but also all emotional and life struggles which lead us to act out.

Many people on GYE privately exchange phone numbers and speak on the phone on a regular basis. Those who are really serious about changing their behavior should really consider doing so. (You won't die from risking your anonymity.) Privately message those who have posted many times on the forum and gained a bit of your trust and start making phone calls. Phone calls are a complete game changer and the benefits are enormous!

upanddown wrote on 08 Jun 2025 22:15:

It’s a fantastic book. Gave me a lot of insight. 

KOMT!!! 
Here’s a warm hand, 
Chaim Oigen 

30 days clean BH.

Been reading the book "God of our understanding" by Rabbi Shais Taub. What he writes really resonates with my personal journey. My sex addiction (first time I'm admitting it) stems from a desperation for spirituality. And ever since I've been taking my Yiddishkeit more seriously and feeding that need with what it really yearns for, it has been much easier to stay clean. No chiddush really. It's just a great feeling to somewhat experience the בראתי תורה תבלין-strategy actually working.

SA fellowship is extremely important. While the actual meat and potatoes of the program are the 12 steps, fellowship has many benefits including but not limited to:

• Getting out of our own heads
• Bringing our lust to the light (in other words speaking about it clearly and not hiding "light kills lust")
• It helps us get sober
• It helps us stay sober
• It reminds us what acting out did to us when we see newcomers still suffering
• It helps us do the work as a group instead of alone
• It keeps us on top of our game and reminds us to actually work the program
• Sharing our emotional pains and discomforts instead of medicating them with porn and masturbation
• Sharing our defects of character and shortcomings which break the power they have over us
• Keeps us from getting lonely and sinking into despair
• Helps us help others which in turn keeps us sober
• Helps us internalize how insane our acting out is when we hear ourselves speak it out to another

There are many other benefits to participating in the fellowship of the program which makes it a crucial part of recovery.
GYE members who are not addicts (and also the ones who are addicts and did not yet come to the realization that they will not get sober without actually joining SA in person) can still use this tool to a smaller degree. There are many members who read posts on the forum but do not post on it themselves. Those people would greatly benefit if they come out of their shells and actually start posting. You will join the GYE family and feel a part of rather than apart from. People benefit from posting about their own struggles and also by helping others such as by leaving encouraging comments and giving helpful advice.

Those who are already posting on the forum can benefit to an even greater degree by posting in other ways. If you mainly post your own struggles (both lustful and in general) continue doing that but also consider starting to help others by leaving encouraging comments, thank yous and karma plusing. Those who are mostly helping others will benefit greatly by starting to post about their own struggles and bringing it to the light. Don't only post about sexual struggles, but also all emotional and life struggles which lead us to act out.

Many people on GYE privately exchange phone numbers and speak on the phone on a regular basis. Those who are really serious about changing their behavior should really consider doing so. (You won't die from risking your anonymity.) Privately message those who have posted many times on the forum and gained a bit of your trust and start making phone calls. Phone calls are a complete game changer and the benefits are enormous!

Here is the 3rd of The 18 Wheeler:

3. Participate in the fellowship of the program. I don't know of anyone who can stay sober and free of the obsession of lust without such a fellowship. I couldn't. Fellowship is where the action is, where the magic is, where connection is, where feeling part of is.

At first, all I could do was attend meetings. Then I followed the suggestion of getting involved in the mechanics of meetings: setting up, cleaning up, holding jobs such as literature chairman, treasurer, or secretary. Getting involved made me feel I could be part of, instead of apart from-my old nemesis. Later, I would be able to go out for coffee, start meetings with others one-on-one, and begin the painful but necessary process of growing up by coming out.

While what is written here mainly applies to addicts who are members of SA, non-addicts can also use this tool to a lower degree. The next post will IY"H speak to that.

Here is the 3rd of The 18 Wheeler:

3. Participate in the fellowship of the program. I don't know of anyone who can stay sober and free of the obsession of lust without such a fellowship. I couldn't. Fellowship is where the action is, where the magic is, where connection is, where feeling part of is.

At first, all I could do was attend meetings. Then I followed the suggestion of getting involved in the mechanics of meetings: setting up, cleaning up, holding jobs such as literature chairman, treasurer, or secretary. Getting involved made me feel I could be part of, instead of apart from-my old nemesis. Later, I would be able to go out for coffee, start meetings with others one-on-one, and begin the painful but necessary process of growing up by coming out.

While what is written here mainly applies to addicts who are members of SA, non-addicts can also use this tool to a lower degree. The next post will IY"H speak to that.

It is very important to separate the concept of teshuva from the concept of breaking free from an addictive habit. Keep focusing on the positive and allow yourself a sense of accomplishment while you go through this journey. The concept of teshuva will come later. Right now you need to work on getting to a healthy place.

While we don’t stop pushing for more growth, every small step in the right direction should be celebrated.

Please read a book such as the battle of the generation every day until you develop this mindset.

Best wishes
Vehkam

Grew up in a normal religious family. In the middle of elementary school, we made Aliyah and have been in Israel since. In high school, religion didn't really intrest me, was always shomer shabbos, but didn't daven three times a day and wouldn't always put on tefilin. What mainly intrested me were sports and video games. Of course as most teenagers at some point (13-14?) also got into P&M. Don't think I ever got to the point where I was extremely addicted, usually a few times a week, sometimes a few times a day. But back then I didn't really see a problem with it, I mean I knew it wasn't allowed according to religion, but like I said that didn't really intrest me. There was no discussing of this topic either with my family members...

After highschool I went to a program before the army and started להתחזק. Found myself in yeshiva for 3 years before I went into the army. At that point was when the struggle started because now I wanted to stop... At first I don't think I made a change with my unfiltered phone, but at some point, probably a year or so into yeshiva I finally got rid of my unfiltered phone. But that only helped out when I was in yeshiva. Whenever I got home I would always fall because all the devices at home were unfiltered. At some point I think I mentioned something to my parents but they didn't really like the idea of putting a password on every device. I didn't feel comfortable having an open conversation with them about what I'm going through. (In hind-sight could be that having that conversation would have changed things). Anyway, nothing really changed and that was more or less the situation all the time I was in yeshiva, almost always when I came home I would fall... Same situation when I was in the army, pretty much only fell when I came home and after that was another few years in yeshiva with the same situation.

Around seven years ago I got married, b"h today happily married with a few kids. I had thought that as soon as I got married everything would be over and I wouldn't be dealing with this anymore. After the wedding things did start getting better but still not 100%. At first I went a while without P&M, don't remember exactly how long but at some point I fell, my wife didn't have filters on her computer or on her phone. Eventually I asked her to put a password on both her phone and computer and that usually worked, but only for a few months until at one point I would ask to use the computer for something I needed and instead of putting in her code she told me the code. Or a few times I just saw the code she put into her phone and that way had access all the time. But there is definitely an improvement since the marriage compared to before that. Now I'm usually able to go a few months without slipping up, then I slip up for somewhere between a few days up to a few weeks and then another few months clean. When the war in Israel started (Simchat Torah a year and a half ago) I had been over a year clean! But then I fell again... And then it was the same, few months clean until I fall again. Until last week I had been clean for around five months and fell again...

Saw ads for GYE a few years ago but only now decided to sign up and hopefully B"H this will help me take the next step I need to be clean completely. Starting to go through the flight to freedom program, making a real plan on how to deal with this. I also have new motivation to finally get this over with because besides my devotion to Hashem and to the Torah and to my wife, I've also started teaching Torah in highschool and don't want to be one that preaches one way but acts another...

After reading a few posts on the forum here, I feel pretty grateful for my situation because I never fell into anything worse than P&M B"H. Also I don't feel like it's made a direct impact on other parts of my life or שלום בית as with others (I believe that there are for sure unconscious effects on married life and intimacy, but it hasn't effected me in a conscious way that I'm sure it's effected others' married life...)

Part of my path I think is for sure sending this post to the forum, because as of now nobody in the world knows I'm dealing with this battle (my wife also thinks it's been over with since the wedding) and it will definitely help being in the battle together with others...

Thank you!

For myself and others with an addiction level of acting out the answer is pashut, we have a mental illness and the healing (12-Steps) isn't even about stopping to act out but about dealing with the underlying issue that causes us to act out. Torah Tavlin is talking about the YH for normal people.
For those with underlying emotinal issues also the main problem is what is causing them to act out once they deal with that then Torah can work on the regular YH.

In addition Rav Shlomo Wolbe ZTZ"L, would say that Torah Tavlin only works when learning (or doing) six of the following types of torah on a consistent basis.
The six are:

1. Learning beiyun
2. Learning bekiyus
3. mussar
4. Halachah
5. tefillah
6. I don't remember forsure the last one if someone knows please correct me, but I think it's chumash (maybe shnayim mikrah)