tp1 wrote on 26 Apr 2024 04:08:

One of the admins on the forum, Dov, has addressed this idea wonderfully. There is a natural male instinct for connection, but our habit is to turn  that into objectification. In his words:
Which reminds me that when I think of a women as an object, I am really thinking of myself as less of a person and more of an object: A sexual pleasure-being rather than a real human-being.
And:
Dov often talks about a technique he uses when he sees someone who triggers lust; he prays for them! (after turning away of course). Here, Dov describes why this works for him and others in SA. (Warning: Blunt language)
Ok. It does a few things. First and strangest, I owe something to the person I am lusting after because lusting is always an act of "taking". I am using their image for selfish ends. (And saying that "They are obviously begging for it cuz look at how they are dressed!" is BS. I am reasonably certain that the average slutty female out there intends to be lusted after by who they want to be lusted after, not by some compulsive, perverted Jew boy like me.) So how better to show my gratitude?

Second, lusting is the single most powerful, portable, and dependable way I exercise my MEEEEE muscle (the one in my head, not somewhere else ). It is my drug of choice for entertaining myself, for covering up stress, fear, and boredom, for controlling my inner environment - in short, it is my most trusted Power source. Otherwise, why would I use it so much?  So how do I sacrifice it? By just saying "no"? Nu. OK. That's what I always tried to do.... it didn't get me very far away from it. If you know anything about operand conditioning or habits, then you know that I choose to go a step further and use my lust as a guide and tool for giving power to others. To helping me learn to care about helping others. What better way to weaken the MEEEEE muscle than to do what little I can to care about the very people I naturally worship as my (false) Power Source? I turn the tables as much as I can.

Finally, it gives me something to focus on rather than on lusting. And that itself is worth everything, even if my prayers for her are of no benefit to her. Treating a lust object like the real, live person they are is one of the most powerful tools to help me to stop looking at them like pieces of meat (with skin on them). We need to be reoriented. The entertainment and porn industries have succeeded in getting so many of us to believe deep in our hearts that pretty women are all dolls; that above all else they are libidos desperate to be used by us; and that they don't have real lives with obligations, pains, joys, sadness, and dreams of real people... and that perspective entitles us in our hearts to treat them as objects. Is it any wonder then, that most lust addicts grow to expect (no, demand) sexual bliss from their wives as though their feelings are just an obstacle? I looked into the shulchan aruch to see what I could demand of my wife, rather than looking into her heart... now what kind of BS is that? No wonder we were so miserable back then! She was an object, in some respect.

We need exercises to change, it will not happen just because we wish it to. And it takes a long, long time. But it works and it is worth it.

Over the many years this wonderful forum has been around, few people have put down gold nuggets on so many topics as Dov. Here's a post from an old thread entitled: 2date or not 2date?

WARNING: Strong, blunt language:



Yes, porn-on-the-brain is a condition that makes it impossible to date properly. But I think a rule that 'any guy who has masturbated should not be dating for x-amount of time' makes no sense, at all. And this is why:



The first question to answer here here is, are we talking about a guy who has been worshiping images of naked women and worshiping his penis and self-pleasuring on-demand as part of a long-standing love affair with fantasy (or with real fantasy women), or not? That was me for about 20 years...11 of them married and in hell.



So...



If we are talking about a man who is an addict and has a long-standing chronic, progressive 'problem'...then vadai even staying clean forever will not fix him. He needs some sort of real help. Negative sobriety is just not going down-hill. It's great, holy, and super...but corrects nothing. Such a guy should not be dating! He is fooling himself and probably way too disoriented by her body, his fantasies, and hos adventures last night in his bed or shower, to have the soundness of mind to decide anything as huge as who to marry, right now. He needs a sognificant period of clean time, and a real corection of his attitudes toward women, towad his need for sex, toward other things, too, probably. And without those changes, he is like a man running full speed in pitch-darkness. He's probably gonna screw up badly and be very, very sad. Just staying clean will not save him.



But if we are just talking about a normal guy who has a yetzer hora, eyeballs, and privates, and struggles with his desires (as the Torah and sforim tell us to) even if he is not perfectly successful - then that is just a normal person! And if he came to GYE or wherever and was inculcated with the nonesense that 'anything less than perfect success against his yetzer hora proves that you have an addiction'...then I believe he has been very badly misled.



He should be dating like anyone else should be dating...no difference.



People just need to be a little more honest with themselves, either way. The best way for that to actually happen, is to open up to another safe, understanding, person. They can help you know if your problem is within the realm of normal. But it has been well-known for a long time that religious fascination with ultimate purity has made many young men into fastidiously obsessive sexual anorexices...and they end uo thinking about sex and lust far more in the long-run than they would have otherwise.



Hey, did that go on too long?



Does anyone in the parsha hear me at all?



Does anyone on the parsha care?

5th I believe that it is wrong to lead someone to believe you are a different person than you are. I am an addict even after I become clean and that is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life. To make someone that I will share a life with believe otherwise is, I believe, a lack of integrity.

You posted this as I wrote a reply, so I didn't see it until after. Here's some possibly good news:

The first thing to know about addiction is that most guys on GYE aren't clinical addicts. Unless you have been positively diagnosed by a professional or an expert in this area, it's not something to jump to. And it might not depend on how long you've given in, or what specific acts you've done.

1st I would like to be clear that I am BH way past the point of everyday M and don't plan on starting to date till I am atleat 150 days clean. (I made up a number but it will hopefully be that or larger.) And when I do tell hopefully, I will be clean!!
2nd that is definitely not a way to break the news to anyone at all and especially a person you are dating. It is insensitive to how serious the topic is.
3rd Waiting till you are about to propose is a terrible thing to do. It could cause serious emotional trauma to her. That is why it is done not at the beginning but 100% not right before a proposal.

what happens C'V if I fall while married and she catches me? It would be indescribable to her.  Hopefully this wont happen but if it does C'V then atleast there won't be total shock. (Again I have no experience in this matter but I am saying what I feel is the right thing and feel free to correct me)

5th I believe that it is wrong to lead someone to believe you are a different person than you are. I am an addict even after I become clean and that is something I will have to live with for the rest of my life. To make someone that I will share a life with believe otherwise is, I believe, a lack of integrity.

May I ask you what you think a marriage is?

jewizard21 wrote on 22 Apr 2024 21:22:

Let's start with this: If you feel that you are constantly hiding your true self from your spouse, that will have a terrible effect on relationships, because there's no trust. However, if you open up about things that she can't understand or even process, it can hurt her and she may never trust you or any other man.
This audio, recorded by Rabbi Shafier specially for GYE, is designed for spouses of addicts. It was eye opening for me to hear how different the female perspective on sexuality is, and it highlighted how careful we must be and how much advice and guidance is needed in this area of disclosure: guardyoureyes.com/GYEFiles/MP3s/Shafier/How%20Can%20I%20Get%20Past%20This.mp3
The idea in general is that For someone who is clean and has moved on, the past struggles don't define you. Sharing this  in cases where it isn't warranted doesn't build trust, because it's like trying to build a relationship by regaling her with the story of your struggle to stop picking your nose in public at age 8.
A relationship is built through vulnerability in a safe way.

From what I have heard and believe from a lot of the dating shiurim that I've been to is that the basis of a healthy marriage is trust.
      Opening up to another person about your dark secrets shows the level of trust you have in that person.
      This is nesicary going both ways. You need to fully trust the person you will marry and they need to fully trust you.
      
      Here is also a selfish point. Before opening up to anyone and before recovery we are ppl that live 2 lives. The person we show the world and the hidden person we don't want anyone to know about.
The person we show the world is deeply affected by the person that is hidden away.
      After opening up to someone and starting recovery we start to become only that first person. The only person that knows who you really are knows how that hidden part of you made you who you are as a whole.
     How could you live with someone for the rest of your life without them knowing you as a whole? 
I feel that it may even lead to resentment that they don't know what you've accomplished in life for them to not be an addict.

I will think about this a lot more but this is what I hAve on short notice

I'm still typing the response to the other question.
I dont think it would be healthy for me or her if we were both addicts

I was in yeshiva/college and I had a roomate the was also addicted to M but he didn't know that I knew and I didn't confront him out of fear he would know about me too. 
this person actually kind of woke me up at how disgusting it was and was one of the reasons I started my journey to recovery. We have parted ways since.

Starting my 2nd year is when I actually started to control myself. I got to a point that I could control myself for a few days at a time and not act out on shabbos. 
I realized this wasnt gonna work without a filter on my phone. 
on November 25th 2023 I went to my rebbi and asked him about getting a filter. He pointed me helped my get one and also hinted about GYE. 
Within 15min of getting a filter I found my old tablet and looked for P. Halfway through I stopped and thought "what am I doing!?!".
I would like to say that I stopped after that but I didn't and I fell.
That was the last time I watched P.
I threw out my tablet a few days later
The next few weeks I didn't have P but I still had M. 
There was another Rebbi in my yeshiva that I attended his Vadim that would talk about subjects others considered taboo.
during one powerful one he spoke of a talmud that was worse off than me 100% that told the person he was dating. It broke off and he reacted by going off the D.
The Rebbi ended that shiur off with saying "If not for yourself do it for your future wife!" and I added to that "not only ur future wife but also your future children, your sons and your daughters"

jewizard21 wrote on 21 Apr 2024 21:24:

I wish my original post didn't get cut off bc I don't know if it will be as accurate.

In 12th grade I actually was starting to get a hold of myself and asked my Rebbi about getting a filter on my tablet. He suggested I reach out to the local filter ppl in my community. I did talk to them and went back to yeshiva without a filter and then COVID HIT HARD!!
I was home for 6 months with constant access doig iit multiple times a day. I got into other forms of P and also as with everyone my interests got more violent and disturbing. I still had hope I would get better once going to Israel.
I went to Israel and unfortunately had my own room. I didn't have access to P but I was still heavily reliant and addicted to M.
During my first year I also unfortunately got a smartphone for bein hazmanim making my problems even worse. Starting my 2nd year I already was trying to stop. 
1st bc I noticed and was scared at how perverted and disturbing/disgusting my mind became.
2nd bc I knew that I would be starting shidduchim in the future and could never bring this into my marriage.

I had some clean streaks of a few days and even alost a full elul. But it was not enough. I remember falling of a bike on a trail needing stitches and scraped up my hands and the only other thing I was thinking besides the pain was "Thank You Hashem for making me unable to act out by giving me this injury".
I left iIsrael and had 24/6 access to P and M.

I will continue on another ppost so it ddoesn't get cut out again.
I still don't know how im doing this rn

I don't know where to begin and my hands are kind of trembling while typing this but I guess I just have to start.

I am 21 and my problems with P&M since 12. I think I had urges and fantasies from around age 5 or 6 even though I didn't know what it was or what I was doing. 
      I got a hold of a tablet for playing games and watching YouTube. Then one day I looked up pictures. 
     I remember shaking and needing to stando up and walk around, I believe I was in shock, but then I went right back and started looking. I eventually started loooking at videos. (I wish I could travel back on time and slap myself in the face and break that tablet.)
    Already at age 13/14 I noticed what I was doing was wrong but didn't really care. What was it doing to me or anyone else. I also used M to fall asleep.
   I then started going to yeshiva. I didn't have access to P but I was thoroughly addicted to M aswell at the time and I would go home once a month and "restock" on P. I remember waiting to hear the snoring of my roomates so I could M. Others in my yeshiva also did P and M and talked as if it were normal. I thought to myself that I will stop when im a senior.
   In the summer of 10th grade I went to Israel. I was clean for 5 weeks. Up until then I was doing M atleast once a day. I then thought to myself once back from Israel that I could just wait till I went to bais medresh in Israel to be clean and ill do all the P and M I want till then.

I definitely feel like the process of slipping and eventually falling was a result of me forgetting the feeling of complete and utter desperation that led me to be willing to admit that I was an addict, consider going to SA, and being ready to do whatever I had to. Including joining GYE. (Baruch Hashem the wise men here helped me see what an addict is and why I'm not one, and why SA wasn't for me.)

The conclusion of the Vidduy we say at least 20 times a year (I Daven Nussach Ashkenaz) ends with סרנו ממצותך ולא שוה לנו.
The Cheshbon Hanefesh of Vidduy should bring us to a point where we recognize that we haven't addressed the underlying things that drove us off track in the first place, rather we just continued the same dysfunctional behavior, which actually unfortunately worsens things. So, as long as I have stored somewhere in the back of my head that feeling, when the chance comes up to fall, I'm not just pitting it against my streak of whatever number of days, I have a concrete idea of what hell I'd be putting myself into by falling. But when I forget what it can be like, that is when I've lost my way.

In a related post from Dov:

You are saying just what I have posted about so many times, and about which some posters guys get upset about or just shrug their shoulders and walk away: 1- I expect no schar whatsoever for my sobriety. 2- And I do not consider my sobriety a madreigah in any respect. And by the (very) same token, 3- I do not expect more sex from my wife because I 'held back and was faithful to her'.

I do, however, expect the same little smile and wink from Hashem that He probably gives all the sober alcoholics, pillheads, gamblers, and perverts who die sober and in recovery, as they pass by on their way 'up there' to their Big Judgement. Perhaps a nod, that conveys: "Hey, I know you had it rough, good job, dear. So glad you could join the rest of the human race."

That's about all.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe He will give me a ticker tape parade down Shvilei D'rakia Avenue. None of my business, and I am not interested.

The day I need to get paid extra because I am a recovering addict, I will be in grave danger. The greatest danger is that I will drop my sobriety when I see that I am not getting paid enough! And that is the same whether the person 'paying' me is G-d (with schar, a feeling of deveikus, or a fun life here), my wife (with admiration, sex, or whatever), or people (with whatever I'd want from them).

Its erev pessach 5784 (2024)and all I can wish myself is to live a life of True Cheirus.
My hope and prayers are to reach 90 and beyond and to live a productive life.
I want to be a better Yid, father, husband and businessman.
My addiction and struggles are here to destroy me and depress me. I may not give in.  
I have added some extra personal rules to the basic Gye rules which would be considered for me as a fall.
Yes I'm machmir, because I have to avoid my triggers that lead me to fall.
Hashem, I beg you, please give me the koach, moach and the means to do what's right and what's needed in order for me to heal myself.
I must not be ashamed to seek help.

chooseurname wrote on 18 Apr 2024 16:52:

Terrific Shiur Klalli.
I’m going to chazer the points to get them Klohr. 

1. To help one feel motivated, It maybe be easier to focus on the pleasure of a clean present than to struggle to remember and feel the agony of the past. 

2. Welcome to the non-smokerporner club. Life is different when you’re a no-smoker. There are stresses and strains but what does that have to do with cigarettes porn, anyways? 

3. You see: “Life is pain, highness. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something”. So really, given that truth, the problems that arise in life cannot ever justify the negative method of escape, for that pain is a fundamental part of life, and will always be there regardless. Other methods and ways of living must be found, if one is to live. 

4. Being involved in porn etc is a major life problem in-and-of itself. So the problems of “lifeing” are reduced when you join the non smoker club. Granted, new patterns must be found and that’s not so easy for a guy hooked on the wrong ones. But that’s what has to happen if he is to learn to LIVE. 

I think that was the gist. 

These are great, thought-provoking points. Great stuff.

I’m sure if a contrarian would want to weigh in, he could counter that delicious porn and lust is a good distraction from the existential pain of livin’, better than any other he knows of, and these thoughts don’t necessarily help a guy who isn’t feeling them. And he might say that sometimes the problem of porn is not as great as the problems dealing with feeling the pain in life without a numbing agent. It would hurt to hear that. 

But I’d yet counter that a persons feelings reflect their cognitions, more often than one would care to admit, and clarity is a great thing, a can help tremendously.  Even taking into account the sometimes-great distance between the head and the heart.

yeah, there are different types of problems in life. It’s not easy.  But For me, I choose to live even if it’s painful at times, because even though the heightened clarity may sometimes cut like glass, nevertheless it’s clear and has sharp, defined colors, and catches and refracts the light. Ain’t goin back to the twisted pink haziness, ever. 

Now I will go back to the work I was supposed to be doing. With gratitude for the discussion, the wisdom and the friendships. 

KOMT, 

Chaim

youknowwho wrote on 18 Apr 2024 03:36:

I identify with this post. Thank you.

I don't know if it works so well with to remember how miserable I was (am?) when I watch porn. The misery is far away and the porn is close. For me, this approach is helpful when times are good to focus on how much happier I am clean. When times are bad it's hard to remember that. 

A slightly different approach I'm working on (from the easy-peasy method) is to drill into my head that I'm not a porn-watching-person anymore. I'm a different person now. This person still has urges, but porn is not part of this person's weltanschauung. So what if life is miserable? Why does that relate to porn? My misery needs a solution, but porn is not a solution in this person's toolbox.



I don't want to get distracted from this powerful post. But it's interesting how we get so wrapped up in the struggle and shame and the whole negative parsha that we think "if only if I could fix this life would be great." But that's not true. There's always gonna be another mountain. Just hypothesizing here, but it could be there's two explanations for this phenomena. First, that's just how people are wired that whatever problem we are faced with we think everything would be great if not for this problem. Second, and more likely, porn is a major, life affecting problem. our lives are better without this problem. But we get used to the freedom and start focusing on our other problems. Meaning, if with porn we have 100 problem units. Without porn we have don't have 99 problem units, we are down to 55. But now we focus in on the 55 and forget to be happy about the 45 we're no longer staring down the barrel of.
Probably the solution is something cheesy like gratitude.

There's a question that’s been slowly growing in the dark crevices of my mind. Gnawing at me and slowly but surely chiseling away at my resolve.

I’ve shared this question with some dear friends offline, yet would like to share it here, with some thoughts.

Question: Life as it was in the past, being addicted to porn and masturbation, was miserable.

Now that I don’t watch porn or masturbate…surprise! Life can still feel miserable, sometimes. It’s not utopia…Can I say with confidence that now my life is so rosy? No, I don’t see how everything else got so much better. Some days are hard, I feel powerless and want to succumb. I am left to deal with those emotions that drove me to porn in the first place, yet now there’s no escape!

Isn’t that even worse?

What’s the point of not falling?

Something that helped me, was actually following that train of thought, from start to finish. I won’t get too graphic here, but I started to picture it all in my mind.

The hunt for the prefect clip, hours upon hours of relentless pursuit. The sheer desperation, the complete haze and numbness as I stumble, shake and gasp to the finish line. Finally, hours later, spent and weak kneed, I turn up to face myself in the mirror. I hate myself. Why? Just why? What the heck have I done? So now I’m happy?!

But that was only good for a little while, before long it was rinse and repeat.

And so, for me the answer is clear…yes, there are days that are really challenging. Days that bring along difficult emotions. Days where I even stumble into lust, I see a pretty girl and it drives me bonkers. Fine. It’s still a lot better that going through hell again, and I won’t trade it for anything in the world.

Sometimes, we forget what it was like. Its normal to forget. But we can use our imagination, talk it through with a friend, but don’t let yourself truly forget what a Gehinnom it really is to be ensnared in porn and masturbation without a hope of ever seeing a way out.

Okay, that feels a whole lot better, maybe life is rosy after all...

-YKW