The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 19:57:


I just read this thread, I identify with all of it, wow!

I have a similar theory to the 12 steps, I am probably wrong and I don’t want to offend any hardcore 12 steppers and hope Dov won’t shoot me (or be upset).  Also, based on the fact that I can’t stay sober for more than two days and haven’t really worked through the steps, I should probably just shut up, but it calms my fears about the Christianity in this whole thing. 

Here goes:
Addict act out to run away from real life situations and acting out is our escape from fears and resentments.  The solution is to face the challenges of our lives, to face those fears and resentments and not acting out on them.  To do that you need trust:  trust in life and on a higher madreiga trust in hashem.    Once a person has trust, he does not have to run away every time he faces a feeling he doesn’t like or every time he worries about his finances.

The hard part is that practicing hat trust in our daily lives in virtually impossible.  For 15 years, I ran to sex and isolation every time I faced the slightest fear, it has become a coping mechanism and a lifeline, it’s impossible to just drop it.  That is what makes us powerless, because the fear is much stronger than our willpower.

So, this is where group support comes in.  A group where one can openly share their fears, resentments and feelings and get valuable group support is a huge psychological help and weakens the fear, the obsession and the need to act out.

With this theory, all my questions are answered. You can trust JC as much you like, you can trust a lamp post, but as long as you gain trust in life, you can face your fears.  It’s not the fact that JC is helping you stay sober by a miracle, it’s YOU that changed by gaining trust in life (and groups support) that keeps you sober.

It’s all psychological!!

Again, sorry if I’m wrong, it just makes me feel better.

The Never Believer wrote on 23 Jul 2010 13:45:
Dov gave what I believe is the perfect analogy on one of the calls.  Few of us here, if any, know how an air conditioner actually works, but we know that it does and we don't not use it when were are hot just because we don't know how it works.  Our approach to our addiction should be the same way, we know we're in trouble (we are hot), we know that the 12 steps has worked for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands people (it cools) are we not going to use it just because we don't know how it works.  We would be fools not to.

There is no Avodah Zara in the 12 steps. If a rav like Rabbi Dr AJ Twerski signs on to it then theres nothing wrong with it. I am not sure what part of the program could even be maybe considered avodah zara ??? Just because the goyim do it wouldnt make it avodah zara. The goyim "daven" also but we dont consider anything wrong with that...

Maybe I am confised what you guys are talking about...

The Never Believer wrote on 23 Jul 2010 15:38:

TNB I know where you're coming from.  My wife has been OA for 10 years and I have sometimes been very apprehensive that things she was hearing or reading could be construed as heresy.  Whenever I have had concern I've checked it out and its always rooted in a torah concept. I remember one incident where there was something which I was sure was contrary to Torah haskafa and I asked a well-versed program guy and he showed me the same thing in Derech Hashem.
This is one of the beautiful things of GYE.  Since for the most part we are all jewish the program is generally Torah oriented.

One thing to consider is the fact that we are learning יראת שמים, אהבת השם, ולדבקה בו etc., everything a Jew lives for from Dr. Bob and Bill W. and a bunch of others who got all their ideas from you know where.

If I were to tell you about a program founded by Reverand Jones and Sister Sara where a group of people of all religious get together in a church once a week to learn middos tovos, how to daven, how to be close to hashem 24/7 etc..  Would you send your kids to these groups even if it will really turn your kids into better Jews because unfortunately they don't learn those things in yeshiva.    I would not!

Obviously, it is probably not ossur and the fact that we are addicts and acting worse than a בהמה is something to consider, and the argument that your choice is to go the meeting or act out forever is a very strong and convince one.  But I just wanted to throw the thought out.

many (all) themes in christianity were not chiddushim of the Disciples of Christ (aka "The Twelve" as in the 12 steps, the 12 traditions, 12 this, 12 that). even jesus dying on the cross for our sins is really no more than a glorified hollywood version of akeidas yitzchak. but like moshe f says, when we see something that has to do with religion come from Christianity we cringe a little.

take the serenity prayer.

before AA sunk its teeth into it, the prayer read:

O God and Heavenly Father,
Grant to us the serenity of mind to accept that which cannot be changed;
courage to change that which can be changed,
and wisdom to know the one from the other,
through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

so we took out the jesus part and its a nice prayer. but there is still something a little strange about saying it, no? whatever, i really really dont want to overthink myself back into the cage. for now, we just go with the flow. lets see what happens next.

The Never Believer wrote on 23 Jul 2010 18:05:


Yes, for it's very uncomfortable.  I was raised in a very frum environment and all these things are hard for me to accept.  I’ll just go with the flow, gut Shabbos

Well to start with you may feel a little comfortable if you say Hashem instead of our lord or higher power. We know our higher power is (even if we don't always act that way).

The Never Believer wrote on 23 Jul 2010 15:38:

I heard a Gemara this Shabbos that I believe addresses the concerns raised.  The Gemara in Sanhedrin (דף לט, ב) says

דריב"ל רמי כתיב (יחזקאל ה) וכמשפטי הגוים אשר סביבותיכם לא עשיתם וכתיב (יחזקאל יא) וכמשפטי הגוים אשר סביבותיכם עשיתם כמתוקנין שבהם לא
עשיתם כמקולקלין שבהם עשיתם

When it comes to being like the Goyim by watching Porn and doing everything else we have no problem following them.  When the Goyim come up with a system that could help us, then all of the sudden we start raising questions.  I agree that we have to be on the lookout for concepts that can be Apikorsus but plenty of knowledgeable frum people have gone through the program and have not found problems.  I think we can follow their lead and just do the program.

ur-a-jew wrote on 25 Jul 2010 04:07:


i like.

i keep thinking about the fact that the church was the one that placed the torah into perakim, yet we all use perakim, we all say, look at bereyshis, perek blah, passuk blah or look at yechezkel, yud alef. certainly when there is something valuable there for us to use in our avodas hashem and general well being we'd be fools to reject it.

i think all of us here have pretty much agreed that they have not found anything overtly christian about the program and we all are in it to win it.

The Never Believer wrote on 23 Jul 2010 15:26:


Yes, I saw that post too and didn't like it. I removed it.

chevra, i need help with a problem i find myself having. over the past few weeks ive had a very hard time managing to stay sober in the early mornings. the way it usually goes down is that i wake up at 4 or 5 in the am and my mind is racing. usually its racing with thoughts about work. i just think about all of the things i need to do on all of my files. sometimes i get panicky but sometimes i just worry. when i dont wake up thinking about work i wake up thinking about sex. this happens when i dream about sex. then i wake up horny and thinking about sex. anyways, whether i wake up thinking about work or sex, i am usually masturbating within a few minutes. it helps calm my nerves and only after i do that can i get up outta bed. i just simply cannot find any way to avoid this morning fall. when it happens, i usually fall again later that morning or that day. and that is how long losing streaks start for me. like right now i must be in a 15 times in 3 days type slide.

so basically, im not shouting hysterically for help but i need some help getting through the mornings. i am working the steps and not expecting results overnight but i really cant keep going on like this. i have felt extremely suicidal the past few days. dov said that in the early goings, before the 12 steps can take effect the best way to survive is through reaching out to others. the problem is that i have these occurrences at like 3, 4 or 5 in the am there is no way for me to reach out to anyone. anyone having any suggestions? i really feel like i'm at the end of the line.

Hey,

If you are an Israeli, you can call me (it works with the time zone difference) and if you are an American/Canadian etc. you can call one of the Israeli guys in our group. The time difference can really work in our benefit. Hope you feel better with yourself soon! I know that this is far fetched but can you change your job (to something less stressful)? You know what they say about stress....

Regards,

Avraham.

thanks. im in manhattan. who in our group is from the holy land? is there an alternative to human interaction for those moments of pure insanity?

The Never Believer wrote on 28 Jul 2010 19:08:

Check your email.  I just sent you the roster.

The Never Believer wrote on 28 Jul 2010 19:08:
GYE, a book, really anything that distracts you.  I find that a sefer in middle of the night always manages to put me back to sleep.