The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 14:50:
I am so glad you decided to stay on.

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 14:50:


I always think of this analogy when I think of the Gemara that says that Chazal lessened the ta'avah for Avodah Zora.  We always think why would someone want to bow to an idol.  If you ever want to know what it was like before Chazal stepped in.  Just think of the taavah that we have for lust.  There is nothing rational about it, it was the same way with Avodah Zora.

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 14:50:

Never Believer.  Others may disagree with my comments.  But to me it seems like there is alot of anger towards G-d in there.  I find when I start feeling that way the solution is to focus on what G-d is giving me.  Right now in the here and now.  Well for today, I have from G-d, among other things, life, a job, a wonderful wife, a roof over my head, eyes (no don't take it for granted there are people like you and me that can't see); working hands (today in Shul I saw someone who only had three fingers on both his hands.  What a tovah G-d has done for me that he gave me fully functional hands); and for those who do Avodas HaPenis (he gave me a working one too.  I know someone who has to use a catheter to go to the bathroom.  Just the thought of it makes me squeamish).  I am not even getting into the beauty of the earth and how much good there is in it for me. 
Yes G-d not only can help you and me.  He does help you and me.  On a constant basis.  Sit down with a pice of paper and write out all of the goodness that you have in your life.  You'll see that G-d will do for you.
Are there people sick in the world.  Yes there are.  If G-d is Kol Yachol and has decided in His infinite wisdom to make them undergo those nisyanos who am I to question Him.  What I do know is that He gives me on a constant basis.  And I'll admit the more I speak with Him directly the more I start seeing it.

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 16:01:

My mistake.  I apologize.  It was the "giant middle finger" comment that threw me off.

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 16:14:
In essence I make my living on writing.  But one lesson I think (or hope) I've learned is that you don't mess with things that are bigger than you (especially the One you're going to turn to and ask for help).

As to your underlying question.  I beleive there is a faulty assumption in it, although I can't pinpoint it.  I defer to someone who has a real handle on the program like Dov to answer.

Hey,

Thanks for asking all these questions. I always had issue with this stuff but I learnt to accept things that we do not understand. I'm hoping that people will have good answers for you and that it will help me as well.

urajew, thanks for reminding us of all the good things in our lives. It is so easy to forget how fortunate we are (although I can see why it doesn't really address the problem).

I don't know if this answers you're question (so I'll be 0 for 2 for today).  But your question reminded me of an observation I recently had while reading through the big book.  There is a Rambam (end of Hilcos Malochim and Milchomos Perek 11) which says that the purpose of christianity and islam coming in to the world was to acclimate the world to the concepts of Moshiach, Torah and Mitzvos.
This Rambam was censored out of many editions.  It is in the Frankel Rambam and pasted below.

יא  אבל מחשבות בורא עולם--אין כוח באדם להשיגם, כי לא דרכינו דרכיו ולא מחשבותינו מחשבותיו.  וכל הדברים האלו של ישוע הנוצרי, ושל זה הישמעאלי שעמד אחריו--אינן אלא ליישר דרך למלך המשיח, ולתקן את העולם כולו לעבוד את ה' ביחד:  שנאמר "כי אז אהפוך אל עמים, שפה ברורה, לקרוא כולם בשם ה', ולעובדו שכם אחד" (ראה צפניה ג,ט

יב  כיצד:  כבר נתמלא העולם כולו מדברי המשיח, ומדברי התורה ומדברי המצוות, ופשטו דברים אלו באיים רחוקים, ובעמים רבים ערלי לב; והם נושאים ונותנים בדברים אלו, ובמצוות התורה--אלו אומרים מצוות אלו אמת היו, וכבר בטלו בזמן הזה, ולא היו נוהגות לדורות.  ואלו אומרים דברים נסתרות יש בהם, ואינן כפשוטן, וכבר בא משיח, וגילה נסתריהם.

יג  וכשיעמוד המלך המשיח באמת, ויצליח וירום ויינשא--מיד הם כולן חוזרין ויודעים ששקר נחלו אבותיהם, ושנביאיהם ואבותיהם הטעום.

AA and all of the groups that have followed have brought these same concepts to millions of people.  There is a whole chapter in the Big Book dealing with agnostics.  And I know lots of people raised completely secular that have become frum from doing 12 step programs.  So who knows if that's not why it works.

Never Believer:

After reading this thread I see two unanswered questions, at least for now (I suspect you have many more).  The second one, about exactly what Avodah Zarah is and how the program could work if you treat one as your Higher Power I don't know the answer to.  But to be blunt (not that it will help you, but I'm just sharing my thoughts here), I don't care.  Because the question is a technical one but the disease is not.  So for me, whether I have an answer to a technical question is irrelevant, as long as I have an answer to the disease.

As for your first question, how you know that G-d will actually help, that is an important one because it goes it relates to key beliefs necessary for the Steps to work (the way I currently understand them).  You're stuck because you see that plenty of people with cancer pray to Him, and then die.  So why should He answer the prayers of an addict.  I think there's a crucial difference between the two.  When someone has cancer, the disease is clear for all to see.  They know they have this disease, they want to live, and there's nothing they can do but pray.  Sometimes G-d answers them in the obvious way (they're healed) and sometimes in some other way and they're not.  However when someone has an addiction, it is not immediately obvious to them.  There's some work needed by the addict FIRST.  He needs to recognize and accept that he has this disease and that it's due to HIS OWN actions.  He wasn't struck by lightening, he pursued lust until it ensnared him.  This knowledge makes all the difference.  If you got yourself into a mess, take the first step to get out and He'll do the rest BECAUSE you took the first step and reached out to Him.  He'll help because that's how he created the world.  Habah Letaher Misayin Osoh.  Whereas someone with cancer is governed by different laws.

Aaron, thank you for articulating so well what was running through my mind but which I couldn't put into words.  Ultimately, however, I don't think this answer, (i.e., that the ribono shel halam has given us a haftacha that teshuva works if we just start the process sincerely) is the answer that a programite would give.
Such an answer only applies to something like SA which deals with addictions that are also sins.  Whereas the 12-steps applies (and works) as to all sorts of addictions many of which are not sins per se.  Moreover, if you ask someone like Dov he will tell you that his approach to the program is not based on a moralistic right or wrong.  Meaning that even if porn and masturbation are not sinful, he still can't succumb to them since they make his life unmanageable.  At least that is the way I understood him on the call yesterday.  And a proposition that I am coming around to seeing.
So Dov where are you?

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 19:57:
I thought I was answering yout third question.  But hey, I'll take credit for whatever works.

The Never Believer wrote on 07 Jul 2010 19:57:

Well my vote, is that the first thing Dov will say is we should all stop thinking so much and do the work.
Second, even if your theory were true, the program only works if you think that it is real.  In other words, to the extent that you think it is all a distraction it won't work because you haven't truly distracted yourself by turning yourself over to the "higher power." 

I agree that the answer is probably to stop thinking so much.  If you're about to die from addiction, and there's a program that may help, who cares WHY it works or how it fits in with any moral code.

ur-a-jew, you make an excellent point about my distinction - it's Torah based while the program is not.  In thinking about this (I know, a bad idea), I have a technical question of my own.  If the program is different than a cancer patient, and if it works only after we accept it and take the first Step, and if it continues to work only if we work it, then isn't that some degree of control?  We're not completely powerless if any aspect of recovery is up to us.  But as I write this, I remember the answer, I believe it's from Boruch.  We're powerless but not helpless.  Somehow that's the way the program answers this apparent contradiction although I can't say I fully understand it.

BUT, what I can say is that it DOESN'T REALLY MATTER.  If it works, I DO IT.

True, but if a person has diabetes, won't they take their insulin?

guardureyes wrote on 08 Jul 2010 17:37:


This probably broaches on a topic that I brought up here:

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=2754.0

Thanks, definitely clarifies things...

can we get dovs answer on this? Sounds like we are missing somthing

Wow Never Beleiver,

I related so much with what you were saying there. The way you have to find the perfect imgae to get your fix. That's me too! Its so crazy seeing that in writing though. Thanks for that.

Here's what I have to say on your lack of God as the chissaron thing. Our lack of God in our lives is what got us here. That being said, it will get us out. Once we learn to FULLY allow God to run our lives, we can live as complete Ovdei Hashem. But once we get there, it doesnt mean we are there forever. We could fall the next minute or even the next second. The cancer patient CAN fully recover. They will be able to live a normal life once again. We can never lust again (and nor should we want to). Regarding God healing us like He does a cancer patient (i.e some yes some no), I dont think its as simple as that. An addict in recovery is the day he steps forth and says I have no other resources. I am POWERLESS. The cancer patient, as much as he says and KNOWS a million times more than we do, cannot get into recovery by purely coming to the realization that he is powerless. He cannot use a spiritual fix. And although God has 100% to do with his recovery, he could sit in his bed for 6 months, not mention God even once, and find out that when the doctor told him he has 6 months to live, he's now going to live a full healthy life. The addict cannot sit around and do nothing and expect something to happen. You wont get past step 1. While both Refuahs come from God, ive never heard of a case where an addict recovered without having a spiritual awakening. The cancer patient CAN remain atheist because science can prove to be the healer, but not so with addiction. Find a scientist who can prove why the 12 steps work. You cant. It just does because this is the only Refuah that Hashem is completely in control of AND SHOWS IT. Most nissim in the world are considered Nistar, hidden.  A baby born. Cancer survivor. I see a recovered addict as a Neis Nigleh, revealed. It is so obvious that God is behind this and to me ( maybe not to some atheists whom I have talked about this with), God is behind this and theres no other way to prove its success.

I hope that was helpful. May have gotten a little out of hand and off topic but it was good for me nonetheless.

Thanks.

ur-a-jew wrote on 30 Jun 2010 18:00:

dov wrote on 02 Jul 2010 21:22:

I know someone will shoot me for this but I couldn't resist (recognzing that I'm an addict).  For those of you who missed the live stream from ChaiFM, today my view was confirmed on International Radio.  Dov, keep up the amazing work.