guardureyes wrote on 22 Aug 2011 21:22:

That is indeed a wonderful piece of wisdom. Other sforim bring out a maamar Chazal: הנעלבים ואינן
עולבין שומעי' חרפתם ואין משיבי' עושים מאהבה ושמחי' ביסורי' וכו' וכל המעביר על מדותיו מעבירי' לו על כל פשעיו
I saw somewhere else, that shomea cherposoi v'einoi meshiv - avonosov mis-chaprim.
But please forgive my ignorance: who is Galanti Z"L, and where is this posuk (yiten l'makehu lechi) from? I always thought that turning the other cheek is a Non-Jewish idea...or is it still the first cheek?

The posuk is from Eicha, Perek Gimel.

I think with these types of inyanim it depends very much on the person and the corcumstances. All the maamarei chazal are true, and all the eitzos chachamim are true. The key is to know when to use each one and I think that when someone is honestly searching for the emess somehow Hashem dorects his actions on the right path with regards to this stuff. The person themsleves also acts in a more calm way when their are motivated by good and this I think effects the way their actions are percieved/recieved.

guardureyes wrote on 22 Aug 2011 21:22:


Back on Track wrote on 23 Aug 2011 00:17:





I agree with BOT and here is my reasoning.    הנעלבים ואינם עולבים is a middos chassidus.  לא תשנא את בלבבך and נטירה are both issurim.  Sure we should work on getting to the point where we dont respond by word or leave a grudge in our heart. But if we not yet reached that point than Elyah's approach which counsels for responding in a calm and respectful manner certainly beats keeping quiet but walking around with a grudge and resentment in your heart.

ur-a-jew wrote on 23 Aug 2011 01:05:


Nice cheshbon.

Another chesbon is, though I mentioned an isolated incident, my wife has a tendency to be excessively critical and negative.  Even if I grin and bear it, it still affects the whole atmosphere in the whole home, and I think has far-reaching repercussions for our children, too.  It's a trait that has been handed down from the previous generation and I think my wife has done a lot of work to try not to repeat it--but this is a more subtle manifestation of it.

Also, I once heard a lecture from Rav Twersky on domestic violence.  He said the abuse doesn't start with the first punch, it starts with the first insult--when a lack of respect and appreciation sinks in.  Then, it's just a matter of time until it grows.  There was one time my wife hurled a direct insult at me and I said something like this, "We haven't spoken to each other this way our entire marriage, and we're not going to start now."

Considering that this is likely more than a passing insult, and that this may very well be a whole unhealthy pattern of behavior, and that there is a multi-generational pattern of abuse--especially verbal abuse and psychological mind-games (though less subtle), and given that we both want to heal from all this and that we--if possible--would like to spare our children from needing therapy all the rest of their adult lives for these issues...

How much weight does this stuff get compared to kaparas ha'avonos?

--Elyah

I was not following the whole discussion just wanted to add my brilliant ideas and  everyone should say what a helpful insight it is.
"Shomim cherposon veinan meishivim"-meishivim the root is shov to return which might mean that you dont respond by being critical in return,when someones passion of criticism is lit it is hard not to go along with it.by the way wives have a special impact on us like that .but for you to say that was hurtful or its hard for me to listen to such talk is fine.When my wife is agitated or critical,my immediate reaction is to become enveloped  with her spirit of criticism or necativity especially if it is directed towards me.

I agree that bearing a grudge (which is an issur) while excersing midas chassidus of einon meishivim is counterproductive. But how do you ever develop this mida if you are never "eino meishiv"?
And to Elya's last question: kaporas hoavoinois is your personal thing. So if you're willing to forgo it for the sake of your kids' sanity, I think there is something positive to be said about it. But in Galanti's piece (who is he?) he talks about avoiding other types of kaporo (C"V and R"L) by allowing personal verbal injury. So which has more weight?
Perhaps the answer could be such: at the time of an argument, Galanti's and others' advice should be heeded. On the later, calmer occasion, family therapy and reconciliation of differences can be introduced.

obormottel wrote on 23 Aug 2011 19:27:


The study of mussar and realizing that everything that happens to you even the insults you receive are from Hashem.  Even in Elya's approach you are an אינם משיבים at least initially.  By continuing to work on seeing Hashem's hand in everything it will become easier to not be משיב (whether in word or in the heart) even at a later time.  These are life-long pursuits.

ur-a-jew wrote on 23 Aug 2011 20:21:

sorry , ur-ajew, you misunderstood my question, although you got it right that my kashya was on you.
The Q was more of a rhetorical nature, and my (more straight forward) point is this:
if you keep answering back, you will never be able to practice the einom meishivin. So, yeah, it's a life-long pursuit, whether thru mussar, chassidus, or whatever else that suits you. We are more or less on the same page on this. 

What an important point. You know I don't know the situation well enough to opine on whether her problem is as you describe it. But if indeed it is so, and she is a thinking person, she should be willing to work on it and part of your life is also in helping her. Spouses- even addicts- are there to help the other . I don't mean to help by pointing out where the problem crops up... But by supporting her own efforts to improve.

So regardless of whether you are sober or acting out she is a separate person and if you can help her your doing a big mitzvah. You don't need to be clean for xyz days before you 'deserve to be treated like a human being.' If her criticism is rooted in unhealthyness it is bad for you, your children AND her. (Just as our acting out is bad for all 3). 

Eye.nonymous wrote on 18 Aug 2011 05:42:


That's beautiful Elyah, thanks for sharing! Keep on growing, you're a real inspiration of how the program works.

You're all inspiring and beautiful!

Hi Elyah,

Meet Zev. He's sober for 21 years, and he hasn't been tempted in 17. He's made real change - as I addressed possible in my thread. If you read his posts, he touches up on a lot of the ideas that I mentioned there, such as, "I am powerless!" vs "I can do this with Hashem's help!" amongst other things. He's only posted a few times so far, but as I see it, this guy's got the gems! Talk to him and he might be able to give you some clarity on the things you private messaged me about. There's a lot to learn from this guy!

Take care. 

I'm undergoing a sort of lust detox exercise, which is helping me see just how deep this lust has affected me.  It really has taken over my life and my mind.

I was under the impression that lust is just a sort of backrgound noise which keeps creeping in whenever I am exposed to triggers--though often it may be that I am triggered.  But I think, instead, lust is quite clearly in the FOREGROUND.  It's my brain's default setting.  It's the main thing I think about and it seems like the most important thing in the world.

So, as I try to recover from this, it's not just some ocassional (or even frequent) slips and falls and lustful habits I need to give up.  My brain needs a total overhaul.

--Elyah

I would be extremely interested to know the details of this exercise. Any chance you will share?