If I'd have know stepping into a bees nest could be so helpful I'd have done so sooner.:p.

Basically, dovs right I am expressing the sa definition as I understand it. But sa isn't the only path to sobriety. If it works for you do it. If it doesn't then maybe s/t else will. So I guess I retract that last statement I made. If according to your definition of sonbriety your not sober then.... Your not sober and you should recount. I just hate seeing s/o beat themselves up for what seems to be not a reason.

If your doing SA, then you are sober as long as you didn't breach what SA defines sobriety  as.

Just to add though- the original post mentiones machshava as the instrument of  having broken sobriety with. If intense lustfull thought that led to zl, WITHOUT physicall mast* is the issue here, I can hear y you would feel pretty crummy about that and want 2 reset your count. ....i Been down that unpleasant road myself. But even with that, thechnically, I think you could still keep counting.
I am nowhere near an expert on this and hope my poking my nose in here doesn't do more bad than good.

"My imagine came up with a new way to act out" AND THAT'S WHAT I DID!  (Sorry for not being clear).

It DID involve zera l'vatala.  But it happened so fast I thought I could excuse it as just a slip.  I thought I wasn't really at fault.  After going through the details with a sponsor, the conclusion was that it truly was a fall.  I did intentially touch myself in an inappropriate way, though brief as it may have been.

On the other hand, I had an incident recently which also involved zera l'vatala, but, after consultation with my sponsor, it did not constitute a fall.  I had not done anything intentionally to bring it on; I was reacting to a sudden, and strong external stimulus over which I had no control.  But it was actually this incident that made me want to come clean and admit the earlier incident.

I have a very low tolerance, and can sometimes go from a slight inappropriate thought or touch right to zera l'vatala without any time for it to register.

--Elyah

Dear Elyah,

This response will be short because I am very hungry and checked the site before eating. (my stomach is a lot faster than my brain!)

Funny, I have such a low tolerance that I do not even need to have an erection - if I actively lust, then I will get to zera levatola very quickly anyhow. The tolerance I used to have was looking at schmutz for hours and going to dirty places for hours, before 'doing the deed'. During my first year or two sober, I started to become unable to actively lust for more than a minute....I'd feel myself getting to that point of no return sooner and sooner.

Over the ensuing years, my ability to actively lust has grown even shorter. Now I cannot generally even tell a lie without feeling 'something down there' - and it is not sexual, just dishonest. I assume that it my program working the way Hashem intends it. For it is bringing me farther and farther away from acting out.

Incidentally, I say "actively lusting", because it seems to me that a parade of sluts in front of me will not do anything to me now. I cannot be made to lust. Lusting is not seeing nudity - it is lusting, and I can surrender that whenever I want, and be free with His help...if I really want it.

I am very conscious to avoid being mekasheh atzmi l'daas. But id that happens not attached to any lust that I am aware of, I have no problem with it, at all, and do not 'wish it away' - it is obviously physical and not sexual or lust oriented. If I were guilty about that, I'd be in the toilet long ago. It would be playing into the hands of the YH, my addiction, or whatever you'd like to call it...

And incidentally #2, I can still function completely normally with my wife in a sexual way. This, it seems, is because being with my wife is interpreted as something entirely different to my body and heart. 

Hey, we are growing. We do not need to understand and explain all this stuff. But it is clearly a brocha from Hashem, for our sensitivity keeps us that much farther away from lust.

Boy, am I hungry....

Elyah, now I understand more clearly. You are a man of integrity to admit your fall here.I wish you only more serenity and piece of mnd in sobriety.

Back on Track wrote on 10 Aug 2011 02:04:


...and I'm going to have to admit it in person at the next meeting I go to.

--Elyah

All the more then that this adds to your 'living the solution'

I'm on bein hazmanim now, and so are all the kids.  So, we're busy doing family activities (fighting and yelling and screaming and various contact sports, such as hitting and smacking an wacking and potching).

I'm not using the computer much, and, it's hard to believe, but I don't really miss it all that much either.

--Elyah

Keep it up elyah

...seriously, my wife and I have been very bold in planning our vacation activities.  We've been less afraid to try new things--to travel to new places with the kids, less paranoid about spending a little bit of money on things other than groceries, and less worried about "what will happen if we're off schedule and all the kids go to bed a couple hours past their bed-time G-d forbid!"

We've been trying to do a little something every day--even just a hot-dog barbeque, and we also planned a couple of nature hikes with the kids, and yesterday we went on a trip somewhere just because "the kids wanted to ride the train."  We ended up in a nice park with a little lake and paddle-boats and pony rides--which was all a nice bonus to the train ride and, overall, we all had a great time.  We are giving our kids some really good memories, and also showing them that their parents care about them and want to spend some time together and enjoy it.

I think this is all possible only because of recovery.  Even a year ago, or even six months ago, I would have just sat around waiting for vacation to be over, kvetching that everything costs too much.

--Elyah

great to hear you doing well, Elyah, thanks for sharing that

I'm been treading on some new territory lately, regarding my wife and I.  I think it's a good development.

Just as a preface:  I'm not trying to focus on her faults and her problems and what she does wrong.  I am trying to focus on my part in things, and what I need to do in order to be less selfish and more considerate.

However, some recurring things come up which really pushes my buttons.  I think it's even more significant because, as the wife of an addict, my wife probably has some co-dependant tendencies.  There are a few things she does which makes me feel like I just got an undeserved major slap in the face, and makes me want to crawl away into the darkness and escape life. 

I remember in my chosson pre-marriage classes, one thing that I was taught was "how to have a good fight"--as my chosson rebbi put it, "it's inevitable there will be some fights; what matters is how you handle them."

Basically, if something happens that you're angry about, DON'T SAY ANYTHING ON THE SPOT.  You're too angry and you'll over-react.  Wait until you're calm, and then bring up a discussion.  But, there's another danger--after a couple of days go by, we start to think, "Hey, it was really no big deal.  It doesn't bother me anymore.  I'll just forget about it."  But, it really DOES bother us, so when it happens again, and again, and again, we then BLOW UP way out of proportion, because we're reacting to a dozen times we were upset, instead of just the one current incident.  SO, make sure to bring up the discussion.  THEN, keep the discussion local, in the present, and don't involve other people, either.  DON'T mention ALL the times YOU NEVER squeezed the toothpaste from the bottom (just for example),AND BY THE WAY you can't cook either, AND A FINAL THING... you're mother's ugly too!  Talk ONLY about now, the one thing that just happened, between the two of you.  Another rule was, if the discussion starts going around in circles, call it quits for now--it's a sign that one of you, or both of you, have had a temporary cereberal shut-down; continuing the discussion won't be productive.  (There were a couple of other guidelines, but I forget them at the moment.  I think I've mentioned the main ones.)

So, following these guidelines, I thought I should mention to my wife that I'm upset.

I was successful today, I think.  I was out of my head, flexible, and willing in an instant to do something with the kids which they had been wanting to do for a while.  The opportunity arose and we seized it (I was inclined to take a 3-hour nap this afternoon instead.  We were out late last night, and tonight I have to pull another late night).  I thought this was a good accomplishment.  I mentioned to my wife, "well, the kids have been wanting to do this for a while."  Her reply was, quite sarcastically, "WELL, THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS I'VE WANTED TO DO; AND YOU HAVEN'T DONE THEM."  She was referring to home repairs, and all sorts of other technical things, I assume.  I was hurt.  Instead of being happy for managing to get out of my head and spend some time with the kids, I was suddenly feeling doubly-guilty.  I davened for Hashem to remove my resentments and self-centeredness (I've been using this tactic quite a bit lately, especially asking Hashem to help me surrender my lust to Him).

Should I ignore this?  After all, considering the facts, it IS true.  But, I really felt this back-handed insult is really not healthy in our marriage.  I really think it may very well be an abusive, though subtle, dynamic.  I wanted to tell my wife, "THIS IS ABUSIVE;  YOU'RE ALWAYS GIVING ME THESE BACK-HANDED INSULTS AND IT'S TIME YOU STOP.  WHATEVER I DO IS NEVER GOOD ENOUGH, AND NEVER DONE QUITE RIGHT. I'M FED UP.  YOU'RE SICK AND YOU NEED HELP!"  I was fuming.

But, after I davened for Hashem to remove my anger, and after I remembered the guidelines for how to have a good fight, I decided I really should still say something.  But, it was like this, "I felt really hurt by your comment this afternoon; I think it was a back-handed insult and I think it was completely uncalled for.  What you said may very well be true, but I think you can find a way to make your point without knocking me down."

My wife said she was sorry right after that.

I think it's a good development, being able to express feelings, even negative ones sometimes.

And, I do think, although as addicts we are usually the culprits, in some ways we are also victims (as our spouses may actually have co-dependent tendencies, which is a sickness unto itself), and I think it's okay to keep an eye out for those moments and speak up (but, again, I wouldn't go overboard with this.)

--Elyah

Elyah, very well articulated.  You may or may not feel it, but you are a GIANT.  I can relate to a lot of what you said.

Elyah, I also find that when I just let go and don't stress so much, I can have a great time.

elyah i also havent done a million things aroundmy house that my wife wanted me to get done. i think it has more to do with our being males and not much to do with addiction. Males ahve a tendeny to procrastinate on the home expenditures that ladies like.

on the backhanded comment note: i know how you feel. I dontthink my wife puts it quite like that, but I am at times really hurt feeling like whatevre i do is not enough.

you seemed to have put it into the right context though in expressing it to her. I think that learning to verbalize your poit of view is not only a part of recovery, but a part of life. it is impossible to never be disatisfied with something. Though we strive for taht ideal (and we should always seek to improve on it) it is part of being human to learn to express our dislikes appropriately.

You may have been right in mentioning this to her... but... see this piece and you might decide against it next time 

www.guardureyes.com/GUE/Images/galanti.gif