dov wrote on 29 Nov 2010 17:57:


Dov,

My first reaction to your post was to write a reply generally consisting of


But then I thought - I'm spending just about as much time writing about why I haven't read it yet - why not just read it? So I did. I skimmed over pages 63-82 (from "Getting Started" until "Step One") - and then read Step One (pages 83-88) in detail.

I will share what I thought of it, but before I want to make something clear: I did not join the forum/GYE in order to engage in intellectual debates. I know that I have an addiction, I need to work on it, and I need to get help from others. I realize that part of that help will be in the form of opening up to new ways of thinking. While some of the things that I will write below will sound like I'm arguing against some of the basic principles of SA - I am writing this simply to express how I personally relate to it (with the sincere hope of finding answers that I can relate to and accept). I certainly am aware that Rabbi Twerski (whom I respect immensely) has advised frum people to do 12-steps, and I recognize that you as well as many of the other posters to this forum are very committed to SA and are learned, G-d fearing jews. I certainly don't think anyone here is 'krum' - and I believe that whatever reservations I have with it (as strong as they seem to me) must have answers. So again, despite my concerns below - I am still open to doing 12-steps, but I realize that I need to get some answers first..


Ok so after that really long pre-amble, here are my personal thoughts on what I read (mostly in the order of the text, although I spliced a bit)



Yes - certainly, that is me right there. My life has become unmanageable, and is growing more an more by the day. Without the drug of lust (and some of my other bad habits related to procrastination, food, etc) things do not feel 'solid'. I am ready to surrender to this truth.




I have certainly tried all of the above (substitute drinking/drugs for pointless entertainment, hours spent procrastinationg, etc - same idea). In addition, I have also tried a mussar/chassidus based approach where I would read from seforim (Reishis Chochma, Taharas Hakodesh, etc). This really worked well for me - but was not sustainable in the long run. Perhaps that's the same as white-knuckling, not sure....
Either way, I definitely agree that without changing my overall mental attitude / stability - I am between in a "rock and a hard place"




That rings true to me. I need to let go of my self-loathing/self-analysis/self-pity/self-talking/self-etc and come back to Hashem!




Sort of agree. But a bit confused as how this relates to Bechira... Perhaps along the lines of just giving up on the ME and focusing on Hashem (which is no easy task, and certainly takes Bechira). But...  it still sounds a bit strange to me.. in the past I have heard/learned that while it is true that the Yeitzer Hora is stronger than us - we can overcome it by using Torah, Tefilla and strengthening existing Mitzvos. Growth by simple acceptance of Hashem and negation of one's ego is certainly within the realm of Judaism - but that's a very advanced level, isn't it?







I want to go back to Hashem - to go back into his open arms. That sounds great and if it takes surrender, then I'll do it. But I am so So confused. This started when I was young... how could I have been expected to do that (surrender to Hashem) as a teenager when I certainly did not have the mental/emotional comprehension to even relate to what this means. Is the implication being made that all of this time, all of THIS - was somehow just to get me to this point of giving myself over to Hashem and not dealing with it any more. To me, that somehow feels wrong. All the Sefarim seem pretty consistent of this being a terrible sin (i.e. something BAD, a moral failing). Everything that I have learned tells me that Hashem wants me to do Teshuva and to fight - yet this book is saying that all I need to do is surrender. What my intellect tells me is that what it says in the white book - is basically a simple reflection of christian theology - along the lines of being born-again, accepting the lord, verbal confession, etc - no need to elaborate, I assume you know where I'm going with it.. Now, let's say that it is so - why do I have a problem with this? After all, christian theology is (for the most part) a bunch of patched-together ideas taken from Yidishkeit and packaged in an easy-to-swallow form for the world at large (obviously with some meaningful differences like the trinity, immaculate conception, first-sin, etc) - so why do I care if this sounds a bit christian if after all I can find very similar ideas in Yidishkeit (between Tannach, Mussar Seforim, Chassidus etc - there is certainly enough material on letting go of the Yeish, doing hisbodedus, cheshbon hanefesh, HaKol Mishamayim Chutz MiYiras Shamayim, etc) So what's my problem? I guess what I find troubling is that while our Mesora has these ideas, there are key elements that seem to be left out with this approach  whereas our Mesora is that all  - such as Teshuva requiring effort and real chorota, earning schar & establishing a dira betachtona for Hashem through hard personal work. Yes I get the idea that we first need to get 'normal' before doing those things - but ultimately, we are here in order to work on those things (Olam Haba) are we not? Look, again, I am not saying this is krum (Chos Veshalom!) and I realize that very BIG people have endorsed it - but I am so So confused when reading these passages. Am I wrong for being confused??



I AM a sexoholic - is that from the depths, from the inside? I'm not sure, but I do acknowledge it consciously.




I have done some of this already, and am very open of doing more of it. Certainly, as I reveal more to myself and others - I would be come more self-aware, etc. This makes a lot of sense




I very much want to be part of this




I feel that to a large extent (although not fully) much of what I've written thus far on this forum falls into the category of replay, anguished dumping and intellectual analysis.... I'm not even sure I know what it really means to "share" in terms of what's described above. I would like to learn more & do this. (Is it a correct statement to say that true "sharing" can only be done in person? Can it be done over the phone? I really hope so, as I'm not sure that I'm ready for a live group...)




I am deeply aware of this - and completely agree that my root problem is not the addiction, but inner imbalances that need to be addressed. I am fully committed to working on the core issues (but need to believe in what I'm doing)



this makes sense to me - although the word 'powerless' again continues to make me nervous...




Ok so this is the point where I LOST IT. I just don't get how this can be consistent with normative Yiddishkeit. It is one thing to say that I am an addict. I am, so it's certainly within the realm of possibility that I have lost self control entirely over m&p.. but to say that I have no self control at all (except for the ability to give myself over to Hashem). Look, I get the concept of Hakol Mishamayim Chutz MiYiras Shamayim and how this related to letting go of the Yeish - but this wholesale way of speaking of it just sounds wrong to me. I won't repeat why it sounds wrong, since I already wrote it above in (probably too-much) detail. Yes it is true that we are part of the human race, and we aren't even being normal people while we are caught up in this addiction. Yes it makes sense how before we can be real Jews and have a real relationship with Hashem - we need to learn Derech Eretz and be functional. But to say that we have no control over ANY of our defects? One of the main points of our purpose in this world, as I see it, is to struggle through life working on our defects - are we saying that this is not the case? Do we need to accept this part of this white-book in order to recover? If yes, I am very very confused.




Yes




I am trapped, I want to be rid of the load, I am weighted down.
I don't know if I have a contrite spirit... but it does feel broken




After reading the chapter - I definitely feel a connection to the following ideas
- sharing the burden with others
- breaking out the inner shell / isolation
- admitting how life has become unmanageable
- understanding how ultimately there is something broken on the inside that needs to be resolved - the addiction is ultimately an outgrowth of the real problem
- how we need to open up to Hashem and stop with the self-foicused approaches


Furthermore,


I AM open to changing my way of thinking (i.e. Hashkofa). I have changed my hashkofa significantly at different points in my life thus far - when exposed to strong/valid arguments (some in book form, others in life form) - and I am open to doing it again. However, I can't help being intellectually honest with myself (I am not writing this to sound self-righteous or like some intellectual, snotty blow-hard. I really mean it - when I try believing in something that I really don't believe in - it causes serious mental/emotional stress and I can't keep doing it for very long) Therefore, I can only change my way of thinking if the new way of thinking feels true to me. Of the things that I have thus far read in Step One - much of it feels true but I have difficulty with some crucial points (as detailed above)


What it really comes down to is that there are several core personal truths that I absolutely refuse to EVER give up on. These were formed over the years based on various Sefarim that I learned (and perhaps there was some secular influence for #2 below) - but by now they are so core to how I look at the world, that I can't imagine how I could be myself without them... These are:

1. I believe that Hashem gave us freedom of choice. Even if that choice is simply "Yiras Shamayim" and everything else stems from it - it is OUR CHOICE to do so. We may NOT have Bechira over every action we do (and it is silly to think we do) - but we DO have Bechira. We are not christians who say that all you need to do is believe in the Lord J, confess and big-daddy will take care of the rest. Yes we have an element of this in Yidishkeit - but there is much much more to it than that. While certainly much of our work is about giving up on the ego, letting go and connecting with Hashem - it takes a lot of hard work (using our Bechira) to get there. Hashem gave us us the Taryag mitzvos for a reason. This is certainly a VERY complex topic which I am greatly simplifying - but I feel very strongly about this.

2. While it is true that I am waaaaaaaaaay too self absorbed (and these loooong posts are probably a symptom of this...  ) I have a strong sense of my talents and weaknesses. Just as I know there are many things that make me non-nonfunctional - I also know that I have gifts (particularly in the areas of creativity and information-organization) which I have not properly utilized. While I have given up on the possibility of being Moshiach (joking - of course, but illusions of grandeur certainly existed....), a Godol, etc - I have absolutely NOT given up on the possibility of making a unique personal contribution to Klal Yisroel. I know that part of SA is giving up on being in control and letting Hashem be in control. That sounds fine to me, I'm with that - but I sincerely believe that Hashem gives each person a unique mission to carry out (in addition to family responsibilities, Torah responsibilities, Mitzva responsibilities). I have dreams - maybe I will accomplish them, maybe I will not - but I REFUSE to give up on my dreams (although I would certainly be willing to set many of them aside for a time period, in order to first become a normal functioning person)

3. While I definitely completely agree that it is not productive/constructive to focus on the negative spiritual repercussions of the many many many past falls - and instead concentrate on the fixing the NOW - I do still believe that eventually one needs to do some form of "classical" Teshuva for this. I don't mean rolling in snow,  fasting for half the year, going to the Mikva every day (though that isn't a bad thing if you like doing it), saying counless tikkunim, etc.... but there are PRACTICAL things to do. Certainly fixing your life, becoming functional and having a real relationship with Hashem is the right way to go about it - but there is some specific stuff to do afterwards. I guess, what I'm really saying is that there are a bunch of Seforim that have been written on this topic over the generations by very big people (ranging from the Gemara until modern times) - while it is true that we live in VERY different times, I don't want to throw away everything else that I've learned other than SA in the long run...

So based on what I wrote, do you think there are answers to my questions that I could accept? Or, are my core beliefs simply inconsistent with the 12-step principles?
Also, independent of the answers - let's say that decided to live with the inconsistency between my inner model of the world and some of the steps - could I still benefit overall from a 12-step program?

Wow, that was amazing. You covered ground that in the past on GYE was relegated to months of arguing...and you made clear that you are not here to argue - just to get better and move on with the right kind of life.

Me too. Motzo min es mino, ve'Oleh.



Two things, zeh tolui b'zeh:

1- You are basically taking for granted that gaining sobriety (and it's result: recovery), is pure Teshuvah. I do not see it that way. Rather, I see sobriety and recovery as a program that 'manufactures' progressive healing from a mental, physical, and spiritual illness of some kind.

So as far as I am concerned, nothing I write about or do in my recovery from the tyranny of lust would be changed if, say, my addiction would be to alcohol. Nothing in essence. At the root, they are identical in cause, behavior pattern, and ultimate effect (a ruined life). I am simply observing that you are not seeing it that way.

I am not here to argue, just to explain and lay out my position and what works for me - not to say what will work for you.

So - with respect to the process of sobriety and recovery - the fact that masturbation is a horrific aveiro is actually a boondoggle - completely irrelevant to recovery. This is a yesod that is completely indispensable to recovery as I experience it.

The ikkar point that I believe actually makes me and other people like me miserable about our addiction and really need to quit is not the horrible issur of what we do. It if was that, we'd have stopped already. I feel that it has very little to do with that, and the fact that we are Jewish is practically irrelevant to the problem and to the solution.

Instead, I honestly believe that what drives us to feel like we have to "stop already!!" - is our excruciating lack of integrity. We start to comprehend that we are actually a bit nuts. we keep trying the same thing and expecting different results. we keep saying "next/this time it'll be different"

Now, saying that the idea I am saying minimizes the horrible aveiro is unfair - is the point that the person stops, or not? The 12 steps helped me and many others I know to stop. Nothing else did. So for me, that is taking the aveiro seriously, no?

And saying that SA not putting a premium on the moral/religious issue of the seriousness of zera levatola is a Christian influence is silly - for masturbation is considered a grave sin in all branches of that religion, as far as I am aware. The dogmas of the 'fall of man' and 'original sin' have no monopoly on sexuality, alcoholism, gambling addiction...those dogmas are general statements about the constitution of man, per the church. In stark contrast, AA, SA, NA, etc, are about specific sicknesses that relate to a specific defect a person may have - the powerlessness is not seen as invading every area necessarily. Perhaps the 'frum' 12 step christians do view it that way - but it is not inherent in the steps.

And no 12 step group I have seen believes that all men are addicts, either. But basically every yid believes that basically all yidden need Teshuvah! Boruch Hashem, I see them as two distinct things. Many parallels exist, (as with cheit and addiction) but that's all.

2- I also believe that only a small percentage of people who have a bad habit - even in porn and masturbation - are actually addicts. GYE folks (and others including Rav Twerski) use that term far too loosely, in my opinion. That is why yiddishkeit's main shlav of tikun is based on normal bechirah and teshuvah based on yir'as ha'onesh, etc...as you rightfully point out. It is the norm, by far.

In contrast, there are few people who I believe actually need the 12 steps - the hopeless ones, like me and many I have met. The ones who ein maspikim beyodom la'asos Teshuvah, for one reason or another. All other people with porn and masturbation habits can probably do just fine with another, more standard derech, whether they are Jew, or l'havdil, gentile.

2- I do not believe that Yesod Yosef and Taharas Hakodesh are at all referring to addicts. Addicts are basically ill. The addictive behavior is a symptom of their problem - a lack of unity with Hashem, with people in their lives, and with the world around them.

These sforim are about the cheit. That is so very important for a yid whose problem is the cheit. But for a yid whose problem is himself, what good is it to read about the seriousness of zera levatolah!? Should he decide not to ever do that again, he will simply need to find another outlet - typically another addiction.

On the other hand, recovery is not particularly concerned with what the 'cheit' is - in fact nowhere but in the beginning of the first step does the 'cheit' even get mentioned. None of the remaining eleven other steps have anything specifically to do with the addictive behavior! There are no specific tikunnim for "alcohol" vs "lust"...rather, it's all about cleaning house and being right with Hashem and people, for a change. And putting ourselves in Hashem's 'hands', for a change.

I say, "for a change", because as melumad and frum as we consider ourselves to be, if we were really putting will and our lives in the care of Hashem, I sincerely believe we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. But that's another shmooze.


Well, I know a goodly number of uneducated goyim who are sober from lust for many years, as well as alcoholics and drug addicts by the thousands who have used the steps for recovery and are sober for decades. Are they on this high madreiga? I doubt it.

It has nothing to do with madreigos at all. It is about honesty and acceptance of the truth. Truth knows no race, education level, nor madreigah...anybody can be in successful recovery.


No, I agree with you - I do not accept that we are powerless over all our defects, and no, even Bill W himself would have told you, "No, you do not have to accept any othese things - take what you find actually works and you are welcome to leave the rest!" As it says at the end of AA: "This book is meant to be suggestive only". As far as the beginning of ch 5 where it says we need to "let go absolutely", and "these are the steps we took" - is about recovery work in a general sense - we need to be totally serious about it, otherwose it will not work at all. It is not apparent to me that any of the steps say we are powerless over every aspect of ourselves. In fact, every single guy I have ever heard share in meetings that he is "powerless over everything" - is no longer sober! So I do not believe that is the Program's message.

Recovery is about responsibility. There is something for me to do, rather than laying back and letting this addiction kill me. No! I will get help and do the work! "These are the steps we took..."  And if G-d wills me to get better, then I will get better!" That, to me, is the basic message of the 12 steps.

As far as the three core beliefs you stated, I probably share them with you. What about me? I have individuality, a life, a family b"H, and am living my dreams - it's far from perfect, but so much father from what I was sure I'd be living by now while I was acting out 'full time'...I was sure I'd be buried and they'd be out there being maspid the wrong guy! I was weighed down by the volume of secrets I was carrying to my grave.

Teshuvah is certainly guided by Hashem. He is the "Yoreh chato'im baderech". I believe that Hashem has a special way of guiding special people into the teshuvah they need - I put my Teshuvha in His hands as much as I out my life in His hands. In fact, exactly as much. The moment I take matters into my own hands, I will probably start trying to manufacture oso isha, oso makom, etc....gevalt.

You know the medrash about the kings that Rav Dessler explains. Two were Dovid haMelech and Chizkiyah. I can't remember the others. Dovid haMelech could actually go into battle and swing his sword and guide his troops - and still know it was Hashem doing it all. The others could only watch the battle or daven in the palace, otherwise the increased participation would drive Hashem's role right out of the battle, in their hearts - it would seem to them that it was they who were beating the enemy.

Chizkiyahu was lower. he could not even daven, lest he take a part in the battle in his heart and 'push Hashem out', in his heart. So he elected to go to sleep! Bye Sancheriv!

I see addicts place like Chizkiyahu haMelech's. Now, c'mon...normal people do hishtadlus all the time and it's not a aveiro! What's chizkiyahu so hung up on? I see addicts as needing to put Hashem in that role specifically in the arena of their sobriety and recovery. Because we need to admit that all along when we were using our addiction, we  were really taking G-d's place, weren't we?

We were saying, "my life isn;t going the way it should. Hashem You obviously do not really know what You are doing, so I'll do what needs to be done in order to pleasure myself! I need to manipulate others to treat me the way I want. I need, I need, I need. Life should be going this way, that way, etc.

Recovery is not a time for more of that. Now it is time that of all people, we self-pleasurers need to step back. We have lost the right that normal people have of being 'Hashem's co-pilot' - especially in our response to our addiction. It is a luxury we have abused too often. It is poisonous now.

The silver lining is that in recovery, the certain path to gaining luxuries - is by giving them up. In Tzedaka, what you give away is what you keep. Same in recovery. When we give up on demanding sex from our woves, they relax and start to be OK with sex. When we let go and stop trying to stop ourselves from thinking about lust, we actually begin to be free of it. When we relax and let go of all outcomes - stop trying to control our lives 'so that it all goes right' and instead start to learn how to depend on Hashem for a change, our lives actually get better and better.

"He who runs from kavod - kavod will chase him!" Same idea. But he needs to really surrender - as the Chofetz Chayim pointed out, he cannot be turning around to make sure that kavod is really chasing him!

I flew all over the place with this very long one, and hope this mishmash was clear enough to understand, I am really tired and sorry if it is disjointed.

dov wrote on 30 Nov 2010 06:10:


Wow - thank you so so much!
You did not in any way fly all over the place (as opposed to me, who did  ) - what you wrote was very clear, and presented in an order that matched the topics troubling me.

What you wrote really spoke to me - 12 Steps is a TOOL to get normal and out of the clutches of a mental/spiritual disease. It is not a Teshuva-program nor is it meant to replace one. I don't need to change my Hashkofa - just work the steps & become functioning again... (like I was when I was eleven years old or so... man what a sobering thought...)

It's late on my side too (2:30 am) - I'm going to go to sleep and let what you wrote sink in (particuarly the last part regarding Chizkiyahu. I definitely still like the idea of being the Dovid (even if in reality I'm being an Amnon or Avsholom...) - it won't be easy to resign myself to letting go of that control. But what you wrote definitely does make sense to me. I need to think about it and really let it sink in..

Again thank you - when I've thought more I will write again (but it won't be as long as the last post : ... I hope not anyways  ;D )

Naftoli thanks for that wonderful post. Having gotten Dov's response I should probably now just shut my mouth. But your post, like the earlier one again prompted me to give further thought to some of the fundamental concepts of the program and probably of Yiddishkeit.  If I say something that doesn't sit well with Dov (or with anyone else) I hope he (they) will comment since even if there is no one solution to any problem, there is certainly a premium for the opinion of someone who has succesfully done the program like Dov.

1.  Reading your post I see you questioning how does the concept of powerlessness relate to the concept of Bechira Chofshis (free will). That is, if I have the power to choose between right and wrong how can I be powerless.  The answer I believe is a Gemara in Sukkah (:נב)

אמר רבי שמעון בן לקיש יצרו של אדם מתגבר עליו בכל יום ומבקש להמיתו שנאמר (תהילים לז) צופה רשע לצדיק ומבקש להמיתו ואלמלא הקב"ה שעוזר לו אינו יכול לו שנאמ' (תהילים לז) ה' לא יעזבנו בידו ולא ירשיענו בהשפטו

In other words, notwithstanding our ability to choose right or wrong, even if we choose right we still need the RBSO. So the way I see it the concept of powerlessness is a Torah concept.

2.  What does it mean to "turn our will over to Hashem" One thing that it is clearly not is the Christian concept of salvation through acceptance of "the Lord."  You quoted yourself from the White Book "there is no faking surrender."  It is not mere lip service.  If I had to give an analogy I would say it is the difference between Viduy Peh and real Teshuva.  Viduy Peh is not just meaningless it requires its own teshuva.  Teshuva is where we turn to Hashem in humility and admit that we had it all wrong.  Our way was the wrong way. 

It is also not "Okay, I am turning my will over to Hashem so now having turned over my will I can just continue looking at porn, because after all I've turned it over to Hashem."  Because that's just more lip-service and self-will.  At bottom "turning our will over to Hashem is about humility and the menuchas hanefesh that comes from the recognition that I am not in control.

3.  Finally, I agree with Dov that while looking at porn is halachacily wrong, the program should not be based on that.  Since viewing the equation in the parameters of halacha requires some amount of emunah which in the past when confronted with lust I've demonstrated that I don't have.  Rather it is simply logical, my experience tells me that my life becomes unmanageable when I act out even if it were not wrong and even if I would not get punished for it.  And I don't want an unmanageable life.

Don't know if all of this makes sense.  But you have my take on the matter for what its worth.

Hatzlacha

UAJ,

Everything that you wrote certainly makes sense and I really appreciate it.

Vis-a-vis us still needing Hashem's help independent of choosing right - 100% agree.

First off - let me be clear: after reading Dov's response I am not really troubled by this anymore. I had been looking at 12-steps as a 'hashkofa'/teshuva-program/way-of-life/etc. Once I understand that this is (at least for us) essentially a TOOL for getting normal, regaining inner balance & breaking free of a disease - it certainly isn't an burning issue to me what 12-steps' stance toward Bechira is - anymore than it would be an issue to me what a marriage counselor's or accountant's stances towards Bechira are- if I were going for help in those areas (etc). Now, I do still need to think ALOT about the ramifications of using a TOOL vs a classic approach - and what that means to me - but that's something that will take at least a few days of reflection...

So the below is just some musing in relation to what you wrote - as I don't really have any issue with the main concept (I think).

In terms of the topic of powerlessness - I think the part that was troubling me could be explained by an analogy:
Let's say that I'm playing with my son and helping him draw a picture. He holds the pen completely wrong, makes basically random lines (if I can even call them lines) - and then tells me "Look Abba - I made a horse!" I say "wow Naftali Jr. - that's a great horse! hey would like to draw a bear together?" and he's like "Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh" and then I hold the pen in his hand and help him make the lines and circles - and he looks at the end result and says "Look Abba - I made a bear! Do you like the bear that I made?" and I say "yes Naftali Jr - that's such a great bear that you made!" and then I ask him - "Hey Naftali Jr, can I show you how to hold a pen the right way?"  - etc - etc -etc - and eventually, after many such iterations/sessions, he makes a picture that vaguely looks like what he's calling it - and I am beaming with this huge silly fatherly smile.
So what's the point? My point is that throughout that time - obviously I was the one making everything happen. I was holding his hand, helping him learn how to make lines and circles, etc. But he was putting in work too - even though he thought that HE was drawing those pictures - he really did put in effort while doing so. Furthermore (and this is key to the point that I'm making) IF he had focused that entire time on how I was really the one doing all the work - I don't think he would have felt that HE was doing anything - and would not have really learned the skills. In relation to children at least - my understanding (and I am by NO means an expert, although I do have an educated opinion) is that it is key to build their self confidence and independence. Now, we of course are grown-ups not children (well ok - i'm certainly still a child.... but at least in principle) - we should know better and realize that Hashem is always holding our hand (or carrying us on his back) [not to mention that He constantly recreates all of existance...] BUT... I'm not completely sure that this is what Hashem wants us to constantly focus on to the exclusion of our own achievements... and that's the part that was troubling me. If one completely gives up a sense of self, and just focuses on Hashem doing everything (even though this is indeed the reality) - then it may be true that everything could in principle become much easier - but is that really the Rotzon Hashem for an average jewish person? I'm NOT saying that it's not by the way. Just saying that it isn't necessarily so clear cut (i.e. if essentially the point in life is to struggle with your middos/desires/etc until you reach a high level of awareness, and then look down at the mountain and realize that Hashem carried you there the entire time - can the same thing be achieved if you know the entire time that Hashem is carrying you?) Again I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEREFORE 12-Steps is WRONG - I'm just trying to explain the essence of what was troubling me.

As stated above - I think that Dov's explanation makes a lot of sense to me. Whatever reservations that I have with the above would perhaps be valid IF we were recommending that all Yidden take this way of thinking to run their daily relationship with Hashem & approach to Torah and Mitzvos. But that's not what we're saying, and this is what I misunderstood. We are sick people (or at least I am anyways) who inner balance is severly off kilter! Whether this state of affairs is due to poor personal decisions early on in life, or due to a biological disposition/chemical-imbalance, or due to traumatic life experiences, or due to early childhood emotional issues, or all of the above - DOESN'T MATTER. Since we are messed up (i.e. not in control of our life anymore) we need to get fixed (or - assuming I understood properly - the right work would be 'rebalanced'). 12-Step is one option - whether it is right for me I have to think about - but the point that I think I was missing, and now see clearly - is that you can't take an approach that is designed for a properly functioning person and apply it to a crazy person. In a sense, in relation to my above analogy - the way that you would teach a special-needs child to draw would (I imagine) be very different than a regular child. (And perhaps a child-prodigy would also need a different approach - and that's what we all are here ... I kid)


In terms of your point regarding "turning our will over to Hashem" vs the Christian concept of salvation through acceptance... I see the validity of your point. I may have been reading a bit too much into the text (there are some additional parts that I can quote to support my original point - but that would just be getting into pointless polemics - I see the overall validity of what you wrote & agree with it)

Again thanks so much for writing! I have a lot of things to still digest and think about - but in the meantime much Hatzlacha to you as well!

I just wanted to write a short post here to balance things out.

;D : >
ok so I really set out to make this one really short - but it still wound up really long....


I did a good deal of thinking today - still feel that these ideas need to "cook" for longer. Here's where I am holding in the thought process though (and I've come up with one additional CRITICAL/CORE question at the end of this post. It has to do with - what is the essential definition of LUST from the perspective of 12-steps)


JUST TO BE CLEAR - THE TWO POINTS BELOW (A & ARE NOT QUESTIONS. UNLESS YOU (the reader of this post) THINK THAT I'M COMPLETELY OFF-BASE, THERE IS NO NEED TO RESPOND TO THEM BECAUSE I HONESTLY FEEL THAT I NEED TO WORK THROUGH THEM ON MY OWN FOR THE TIME BEING. WHY AM WRITING THEM HERE? I'm not sure.... probably because I'm self absorbed and unsure of myself - and writing them on my thread gives me some sort of feeling of clarity. Hope that's ok


A) I've accepted the idea of the POSSIBILITY that my addiction is severe enough to qualify for an approach that is not self-directed. Until now my outlook on this was that the 'correct' way for me to use GYE was to do a personal & intense cheshbon-hanefesh/classic-teshuva approach (i.e. primarily self directed) in combination with constant contact with a sponsor/partner/phone-group/accountability-group/etc - in this scheme though the 'contact' would primarily serve to keep me out of seclusion and add a 'shame deterent' against falling - and essentially I would still stay in the 'cockpit' - either as pilot or co-pilot. My current understanding is that ultimately 12-Step is a TOOL that removes me from "cockpit" - this makes sense to me, but I need to deeply think about if I am ready for this. Much of my internal world revolves around me being (or at least trying to be) in control. Certainly this reflects at least a partial lack of Emunah on my part - but this is where I am holding and I need to decide if I am ready to 'let go' of that... because that's a big decision to make emotionally. In addition, if I am to make a decision of that level of magnitude - I need to weigh the pros/cons of doing that vs. other outside-driven options such as hypnosis,etc (Yes yes I understand the argument that something like hypnosis wouldn't really work on re-balancing the ultimate inner imbalance... It's obviously a much more complex discussion - and I'm making an effort to make this post shorter than the last one...)
To a lesser degree, I am thinking about the hashkafic ramifications of the argument that the regular teshuva/torah approach doesn't apply to (a significantly-advanced level of) lust addiction. Certainly it makes sense to me on a logical level (especially if I view a p&m addict the same way as a drug or alcohol addict). What I'm thinking about though is the ramification of this on my view of Chazal/Torah. Although we live in a vastly different world than what existed hundreds or thousands of years ago - it is inconceivable to me that addiction did not exist then too. I can think of many proofs to the contrary. Now since addiction to masturbation (or more correctly - LUST ADDICTION) DID exist in the time of Taanach - why is there NO clear-cut solution to this in ANY seforim for ADDICTS? If lust addiction ultimately falls into the category of "Ein maspikim beyado laasot Teshuva" - then in my view of the world - this would be an act of evil on Hashem's part - and I know that is impossible. Again, I'm not asking a question YET - just thinking through it on my own. (Currently I can think of two answers to this question... one related to yeridas hadors and the loss of nevuah/ruach-hakodesh/mediation-ability over the centuries, and the other related to the opposite (i.e. each generation being able to come up with novel approaches to growth up to the age of Moshiach which we are hopefully reachingn now..) - but I need to let it 'cook' for longer before sharing them and asking you guys if they make sense...


OK SO NOW MY CORE QUESTION: I am going to write down how I now understand the CORE of what LUST ADDICTION is (in Jewish terms mostly, but also in personal terms). I came up with this (long winded as usual) definition based on your posts on this thread, the daily-chizuk emails, and other threads that I have read over the past month. Could you please tell me if this definition is on target (both in terms of 12-steps as well as Hashkafa in general)?

My personal definition: 
LUST ADDICTION ultimately does not have to do with a desire for porn/erotica/taboo or even being sexually 'poretz geder' - these are simply external branches/core-symptoms similar to how an extreme anger problem is an external manifestation of deeper emotional problems. So what is the core problem in Jewish terms? Ultimately the addict does not believe (usually subconsciously) that Hashem can be trusted to 'take care' of him. What does 'take care' mean? It probably means different things to different people - but some things that come to my mind (i.e. are relevant to me, or have been in the past) are:
- to provide me (the addict) with loving relationships with other people
- to provide me (the addict) with (healthy) respect from other people
- to protect me (the addict) from ruthless emotional attacks from those who wish to harm me
- to provide me (the addict) with enjoyment and fun in this world
- to protect me (the addict) from the outside world that is ultimately constantly conspiring against me
- to let me (the addict) finally fit in somewhere and be normal
Because (for whatever reason) the addict does not believe (mostly subconciosly) that Hashem can be trusted to provide the above - unless perhaps the addict constantly begs for it during Tefilla, or completely restructures himself into a new (Super)man. Since the addict does not have the strength/resolve to completely rebuild himself (either through tefilla, cheshbon hanefesh, or extreme life experiences - this type of growth IS possible for the lust addict - but is EXTREMELY difficult. So difficult in fact that the Yetzer Hora keeps the addict sinking deeper and deeper by making him believe that salvation through these means is right around the corner, etc)... since the addict lacks the  strength/resolve to constantly climb the cliff directly, the addict still has the above deep internal needs and does not truly believe that Hashem will grant the above unconditionally - so the addict decides that he will take temporarily take 'control' and take care of things on his own (this is all mostly subconscious) and take what he needs. So then, the ultimate internal subconscious internal dialogue goes something along the lines (and here I am speaking of myself, personally, not a generic addict...):


Since the world (and especially all the people in the world) is against me [and the few real friends and people who truly care about me are EXCEPTIONS] and I am the underdog - I have to do it on my OWN and SHOW them all how wrong they were to ignore me and/or attack me. I will take care of what I need when I need it, I will find a better way to perfect myself - I will do what I need to do until the rest of the world cannot deny my existence any longer, and will come running to ME (instead of me chasing after them...) However... until I achieve that LEVEL (and it will be a long journey) - I will take what I take when I need it, since Hashem will not give it to me unconditionally (although I do need to do teshuva for all that stuff to eventually reach my goal).


An that constant internal dialogue and lack of emunah is ultimately the root cause of lust addiction.


Dov/others - does this definition of LUST ADDICTION sound consistent with your view? Or is there something deeper/different that this at the core? This is very important to me to understand - because before coming to terms of what to do - I need to understand what I am fighting against.. (If it's as I described it the above, then I definitely don't think I can do it on my own and will need something like 12-steps... although I have a pretty good idea of when it started in my childhood and why... the last time I remember truly trusting that Hashem is taking care of things, and not constantly analyzing what everyone else is thinking & fighting against the world... was when I eleven years old... My G-d... where have I gone all those years... ok enough for now )

Yeah, I agree with the red thing 100%. That is what Lust is. Ultimately, Lust is not just for sex, but for everything. And the secret of recovery ultimately depends on my ability to accept that kol d'oved Rachmono l'tav oved - in other words, He loves me, and does no wrong. In other words, Sh'ma Yisroel Hashem Elokeinu Hashem Echod. Ashreinu that our neshomas are 'yotzei'-zein all our sefishness and lusts with the word "Echod". Rabee Akivah would be proud of us, I bet, cuz his great neshoma was yotzei with that word, too.

And that's not gibberish.

OK, so Naftali, maybe you can chill on some of the thinking soon, and just get to the work of recovery? The control thing you wrote about above was big. We all try so, so hard to mold and direct and define our recovery, by figuring every dang thing out! But the serenity and freedom only come through action, and in the end they are a gift, plain and poshut, a gift, period.

Chill, He's got your back, man.

dov wrote on 01 Dec 2010 10:47:


Thank you so much for the confirmation.......
Although the red-stuff above isn't something I consciously think normally, I'm pretty sure it's buried there underneath since I think bits and pieces of it now and then. Based on what you explained with LUST addiction - I was finally able to combine it into a solid naarative..

This really explains A LOT - but no need to get into more details/analysis - since as you said I should probably be getting to work (including my day job  ) Wow, I'm a heck more messed up than I thought I was! :  Ok well at least now I have a better understanding of what I'm dealing with.
Thank you.

dov wrote on 01 Dec 2010 10:47:

I completely agree.
The thing is that the above is a 'paradigm shift' for me (Hashkafikly, but even more so in terms of my emotions & self-image). Shifts are hard for me, and it takes a bit of time to 'cook' before I'm ready to jump in - but when I jump in, I REALLY do though. (In addition I have a tendency to write my thoughts in a really long, drawn-out fashion. Once I start the practical side of the recovery-work, I'll try to limit this to the best of my ability - although sometimes I just feel like it all needs to come out... Perhaps that itself has to do with the 'control' thing... we'll see)

Again thank you so much!

dov wrote on 01 Dec 2010 10:47:

That's deep.  I'm just starting to notice "urges" for all sorts of escape mechanisms.  Nosh.  Checking E-mails. etc. etc.  I'm trying to become more aware of this--HERE'S ANOTHER ESCAPE!  And try to stay in the present.  Overall, life is much more enjoyable this way.

Reb Eye,

You remind me of an SA old-timer (he's dead about ten years now) who used to say that Lust seems to be about sex - in the beginning. But later in recovery it becomes clear that it is not about sex. It's the experience of not being content with whatever it is that G-d has in store for us and living in the desire for something else than His gift.
It's Lust - desire.
Desire for anything one does not have.

A very interesting idea, no?

dov wrote on 02 Dec 2010 04:21:


OY VAY!

Gevalt! It really came out very wrong. Sorry for that. When I read it over I can't believe I wrote it that way! You deserve more respect. I should have written, "you remind me of an SA old-timer (he is incommunicado now)..." is that better?

:-*

May you live to 120 years in sobriety, serenity, and good health!

Hello Oilam

Ok - so after a week of heavy introspection, looong posts, and lots of help&patience from you guys  - I've come to a personal 'maskana' that I am indeed a 'lust addict' in the way that the 12-steps folks define it. Whether my addiction is mild or advanced is not really important; what is important is that it ultimately stems from a lack of true trust that Hashem is taking care of me. That is a critical point, and one that I have been completely missing all these years. It explains so many things - although now is not the time to dwell on them..

Most importantly, now that I understand the true nature of my problem - I admit that I'm powerless to deal with it alone. I need to connect with others, share (as opposed to engaging in replay & intellectual analysis), and ultimately give myself back to Hashem. I have no interest in giving up responsibility or becoming a shmata; rather that I should open my eyes, see that Hashem is running things for my (and everyone's) true good, and become a real 'eved' and 'son' to Him again. I am not saying that I have gone through "Step 1" - not even close! Even when writing above that I am 'powerless' - I don't think that I fully mean it. But in any case, I definitely recognize that I can't move beyond my lack of true emunah on my own... and I think that's where I need to start.

On a completely practical level - I've committed to joining a serious 12-step group. We will I"H be starting very soon (in the next few weeks) - and I am extremely excited to be moving forward with this.

In addition, I'm going to take your collective advice and "chill" on the heavy-duty self-analysis (for a while anyways ) and concentrate on my practical plan & current progress. I'll be posting about how I'm doing, challenges & victories, and any interesting insights that come along.

On that note - here's where I'm holding. After about one clean week - I had another fall this past Motzaei Shabbos ( :-\ -1 from smile gemach for me) .
A few practical take-aways from this:
1) the weekend - and especially Motzaei Shabbos - is very difficult for me. It's almost as if I get 'reset' over Shabbos and go into Sat. night without whatever mental/emotional progress I had made the week before... I am not sure about the reason why (have some theories, but am trying to chill on the self-analysis ) - just noting the problem for now..
2) I am realizing that having unrestricted access to netflix.com's instant-view on my PC is a BIG problem for me. I'll go on it intending to watch a kosher (or at least non-triggering) movie or show, and wind up casually clicking here & there - and whooom - I'm somewhere between slipping and falling.  I can of course completely block it with K9 - but... well, let's just say that it's not a philosophical dilema but rather an emotional one. Just don't know if I am ready to do it. We don't have a TV in the house - but I grew up with it and being able to watch movies occasionally (sometimes with my wife, sometimes by myself) is the last bond I have with that part of my life... just something that's so hard for me to let go of. I know that I'm probably going to see some responses from you guys stating that if I want to be free, I need to completely give up on TV/movies. Perhaps this is true... right now I don't feel ready for this but understand the problem & am sharing it.




I had a few positive thoughts over the weekend.
They are by no means a signs of 'true progress' - just some things that helped me avoid getting depressed after my fall:

- I took a look at my overall progress since signing up on the 90-chart. For the past 41 days, I have fallen 4 times. So about once every 10 days. While that's certainly not where I want to be - before joining GYE, I was probably averaging a conservative 2-3 times a week. I know that looking back isn't healthy, and I need to focus on the "now" - but it still feels good to know that I'm making some improvement compared to the very recent past.

- for as long as I can remember since getting married, I've often had recurring dreams (nightmares) about broken-relationships and the "D" word. Over the weekend, I realized that ever since starting with GYE - even with the meager progress that I've made thus far- I haven't had a single one of these nightmares and my dreams have in general become less morbid & bleak. Hope this doesn't sound weird (probably does, but heh) - but it really makes me think that something (whether spiritual or emotional) is moving in the right direction in my head  :

Anyways - I'm really looking forward to starting (& living) the 12-steps, and in the meantime - hope that this will be a great day/week!

wow, Naftali Z, you really are making progress and your determination to start working the steps is wonderful. quite an accomplishing week,
you joined GYE,
accepted that you have a problem (which can be very hard),
reduced the acting out,
and are committed to working the steps.
that's really some list!



oops, forgot to add that you also drew some really quality text-characters thanks for those, we need to remember not to take ourselves too seriously