zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuudizzy yettttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt

im honored to see the giraffa on your avatar, reminds me of my mother

why should i be dizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzy?
did you spike my killer whale tea?

just got word from the resident animal rights activist who was out on lunch break eating tofu
that the correct name for killer whales is Orca
תזכה למצות

in unrelated news:
some stress going on over the past few days
relating to the wife
but i am b'h doing much better now
it is marvelous what a 20 minute shmooze with the wife can do
i spoke honestly to her and i feel much better
something much deeper and more precious than just lust
even though that is the touchstone of the Western world and sells everything from copy machines to BBQ sauce
support, understanding and connection trump it any day
yishtabach shemo la'ad
now i am ready to jump in the puddles and sing kumbaya
go get your galoshes and join me

speaking to a GYE friend and the recent discussions on the forum here about the 12 steps have got me thinking (this is a warning if you want to leave now, before the wood starts burning and the room fills with smoke)

seems like we all need to work a program. a program to help us keep our values and goals in our mind. life has a way of catching a person in its flow and getting us caught up in surviving. we need to live, not just get by. the world is called 'olam', similar to 'he'elem' which means 'concealed'. spirituality is concealed is the world and it takes some scraping off of the layers to reveal it.

so if i am addicted to P&M, alcohol, bottle caps or airplanes or if i am just a 'regular' person who is not self-destructing in practical terms at the moment i need a program. a program to reinforce and keep me thinking and focusing on my values. i like to assume that even people without a porn problem have resentments and fears. i also assume that just because they are not sitting up till 4am with their eyes glued to the walruses on the screen debasing themselves they can still use guidance and priority-straightening.

doesn't the gemara say that some things need chizuk every day? torah tefila derech eretz and another which i don't remember. we can learn mussar, daven, listen to a shiur or a shmooze, meditate, write poetry, paint, do chesed, kickbox - whatever works for you to keep you living and giving and not taking and dying.

so the people who go to SA or any -anon society have it good in a way, because they have the program which forces them to raise their life up, to be conscious and striving to live real life. people who are not in that fellowship have to make their own.

does that make sense?

i will go rest my brain for a while and refill the radiator with coolant, i think it is overheating

A LOT of sense!  :-*

Yes it makes sense.  I would put it a little differently. An addiction when treated properly is actually a blessing in disguise since the treatment will teach how to live life the way Hashem meant us to live it. It teaches us to be real people inside. It forces you to make a chesbon hanefesh. A person who is doing the steps can't live superficially. If they are its only because they are not doing the steps. So while the addiction is gut-wrenching and can bring us to the brink of destruction the treatment brings us way higher than we could have ever imagined. Unfortunately for those who don't have the disease they just sometimes go through the motions of life but never really get anywhere. Just read the intro to chovos halevovos the key is the avodas halev. That avodah is worked on constantly through the steps. Good shabbos, congrats on 2000 and glad to see tea time is working out.

I think Rabbi Twersky says that the 12 steps are really for everybody, even non-addicts.

Me3 wrote on 04 Mar 2011 16:20:

I agree but try convincing them of that.  It's hard enough to get an addict to see that he needs them.

Me3, thanks for that quote, do you know where he says that?

very well said UAJ (as usual)
i heard from an adam gadol (rebbe/rosh yeshiva) that today the primary focus of chassidus should be on trying to live torah and mitzvos without it being 'mitzvas anashim melumada', by rote/habit/peer pressure, rather focus think and appreciate what is being done

great to see you and thanks for the well wishes
have a great shabbos (and tea time!, it's a life saver)

credit is due where it's due
the first time i saw tea time mentioned was in a post by Dov in Israel
suggesting to someone to make 20 minutes a day to sit with the wife and talk
10 minutes talking for him, 10 minutes talking for her, no interrupting, just listening
tea of course is optional (Woodford can also be used according to some poskim)
helps keep the focus on the wife as a person/friend and not the local lust opportunity
it's a great thing to do, can help loads with making a marriage better and to keep the connection alive through the (sometimes) hectic and busy life
Thank you Dov.ii!!

zemmo,
u related to harpo chico groucho and zeppo? i think mo from three stooges was at my dads bar mitzvah
anyways, i see ur too busy tending the possum saplings to keep up the thread, between saving other gye's and painting pictures of norwegian war men....

hi tzadik, nice of you to stop by my humble abode and check on the possum saplings
i think the three stooges were booked on my dad's bar mitzva night, i think he might have used Abbott and Costello Shmeltzer

with much thanks to the Almighty i am currently clean and mostly sober and fortunate to have some very dear friends from GYE who can knock sense into me if i cannot walk a straight line on my own.
truly my cup runneth over.
yishtabach shmo!

a smart friend of mine just told me this line and it is a great lesson

you know, curly was purim rav in ponovitch for many years....
kot

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 04 Mar 2011 16:36:


Dear Rabbi Twerski,

There has been a lot of discussion lately on our forum about the 12-Step SA groups, and if there might be potential problems for frum yidden in these groups, and if there might be some way to develop a Torah based 12-Step program, what are the cons, what are the pros, and at what stage should we send someone to the groups, are they for everyone? Can they do any harm to someone who doesn't really need them? etc..etc.... The Rav can see the last page of this discussion over here. Although this is only one page, the discussion spans already 14 pages of posts (see the small numbers at the top and bottom to go from page to page)...

If the Rav has time to read a little about the what's being discussed there, at least on this one page, and the different view points offered there, then perhaps the Rav can send us some hadracha on the matter, it could be very enlightening and useful to our network.

Thank you so much.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rabbi Twerski Responds:

Many years ago, I was asked, Why don't we have a recovery program based on Mussar? I wrote the book "Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!" with such a program, and said, "turn the page and read the 12 steps." It's the same thing.

Twerski


Other places too, I'm sure but this quote is right from this site.