Perv? Perv?

Oh, you mean the new frum channel, Pay Per Vort!

Hi Bruce, Hope you're doin' better.

Keep the faith, bro.

This has nothing to do with faith.

Hmmm...why not?

Hey BW,
just stoppin by,
sayin hi...

silentbattle wrote on 10 Mar 2010 16:50:


Being addicted to pronz is not an issue of faith any more than being an alcoholic or a smoker is.

The issue is regaining control of your life. Religion/faith/the god question has nothing to do with it.

Dear BW,

My personal experience 'begs to differ' with you on this. And mind you, though I deeply respect others who feel very differently than I do in this p'rat, I'd be the last guy to refer to my addiction as a problem of faith, religion, or morals. I also do not associate the YH per se' with my addiction, in the strict sense. I see my addiction is an insanity and a disease and I do not believe that the rule book is written with crazy people in mind. I feel that an addict has generally strayed far out of the normal human realm of bechirah and normalcy. Mind you, acting out any addiction certainly causes deep religious and moral problems, but I consider them all symptoms rather than causes. Nu. Any other approach to it just does not work for me, sorry.
Let those who feel very differently about this issue lay down their arms please, as I'm not here to fight about it and let's not get off-topic. But I believe that BW knows precisely where I am coming from on this, as do many others. Harbei drochim laMokom. Perhaps you even intended basically the same perspective in your comment above.

So, exactly how am I begging to differ with your?

I have found that for me and many others, though our Problem is not a religious one, the Solution is a spiritual one.
And as Religions are very spiritual, as a Jew I am really in luck!
Making brochos and remembering that nothing is mine; keeping hilchos niddah and remembering that my wife isn't mine; wearing tefilin and remembering that my body is modeled after Hashem's middos/ways (so to speak); doing chessed and remembering that I am not the center of the universe; keeping shabbos and seeing a connection to my shoresh; watching my children and remembering that I am actually able to tap into power beyond my own and make a child! - and also: to stay sober...these things are only shayich to me in recovery.
Before some recovery these things never meant any of these things at all to me.
They were all just a big pain in the rear, actually.

And the spirituality is not only the symptom of recovery, but also the answer itself, as it comes from accepting a G-d of my very own and trusting Him, for a change.

Did that make any sense? Or am I way off here?

Makes sense but the spiritual approach isn't for me.

Hey Bruce,

What happened to your other thread? I think it was called "the other side". Was that voted off the island?

-Yiddle

It's still there if you look for it. I haven't had time to update it and I don't know if I will any time soon, if at all.

I don't like to make predictions about the future.

But I hope I can manage 90 this time around. I've almost been here a whole year and still no success.

I'm gonna beg to differ - the work you did IS success! And it's important that you see that...you've had many, many successes and victories.

I respect you for that. God is proud of you. Can you be proud of yourself?

BruceWayne wrote on 11 Mar 2010 04:35:

OK, OK.

But can we at least share a drink of spirits? (like Reb b's Woodford, for example...)

BruceWayne wrote on 11 Mar 2010 04:35:

Just in case this dead horse still has one beating left....what you posted here got me thinking. I'm no "do-gooder", but I feel that I must tell you that that the spiritual approach isn't for me, either.
That's precisely why I turn off some folks by posting my take on their struggle for halachic goodness and spirituality as "romanticising" - and hence perpetuating - their losing battle. (Of course, I only tell them that after they clearly rant and rave about how they are always losing, and whine about it, themselves!) It seems to me that all some folks want to hear is that if they only tried harder to be good, went to the mikkie one more time daily, or said just one more brocha with adequate or better kavonoh, they'd finally deserve to get the "key" to this thing, and be free. Anything else - like considering that their problem is not a religious one - sounds like apikorsus to them. And indeed it is apikorsus to their own "torah", which mandates that even the insane be successful. I feel that such a perspective, held with tenacity while the house is in flames all around them, is nothing short of apikorsus and believe it comes from Pride rather than from true dedication to Hashem. They have the wrong G-d, it seems.
I do not doubt their intent, but for me, had G-d given me the key on basis of being "good enough", that freedom surely would have been quickly abused and twisted by me as yet further liscence to pervert myself. More power would have only convinced me that I can "handle it", and therefore can get away with using lust even more.
Do you understand what I mean so far?

To me, if there is anything spiritual in the problem, it is ultimately my Pride - a lie, that allowed me to keep serving my "g-d": the power of Lust to pleasure myself. And if there is anything spiritual about the answer, it is Humility - the truth. Anything else was my own choice - icing on the cake, as far as recovery is concerned. The "cake" is self-honesty, period.

And it had to almost kill me to help me finally give up my self-reliance, start going to meetings in unlikely places and with unlikely persons, learn about how to stop serving my own Self, and eventually grow into a man happy to serve his true G-d, Hashem.

What approach works for you?

The pragmatic one that goes like this:

"If you don't stop then your life will fall apart. So cut it out, dammit."



Nothing to do with god or spirituality or religion. Just about living a normal life on my own terms and not the terms dictated by the shackles of addiction.
I've had enough of that.

Now, I say this even though I've fallen a lot in the last few weeks. Doesn't mean I haven't changed since I first came here last May or that I'm not still trying to hit that 90 day mark. I'll get there eventually. It's just proving to be much harder than I thought. I'm not sure why exactly, but I have some ideas even though they probably don't explain it fully.

It can get frustrating at times, but I'll make it.

On my own terms.

Bruce,

Your desire to relive yourself of the pain of addiction is inspiring. Although I haven't commented to much on  your thread, I have been keeping up on it...

I certainly agree that putting religion aside, any addiction is withholding true life