Jooboy,

I think that you definitely have a point. The reason why that mindset has not worked for me in the past is because, in the moment when I am tempted to fall, it becomes very easy to convince myself that it is not my fault, that it is not in my control.

This way, I am in control. I am deciding whether I want to fall or not. I am deciding how much I hate the act and I am ultimately responsible for the outcome. Maybe we need a balance of both approaches? Maybe whichever one works will depend on the nature of the addiction?

Everyone - feel free to shed some light on this issue...

If it's really not in our control, why do we feel so horrible afterwards?  The answer is that it's always in our control, at the very least to reach out beforehand to both the RBS"O and to a member of the GYE chevra.

Wow, guys, so many great thoughts. Thanks a million. (I feel so humbled by your taking the time.) I hope others like them as much as I did. I broke out just a few (apologies for not responding to all) for some quick thoughts.

Jooboy wrote on 03 Nov 2010 21:22:

That's true for me, in two ways. First, the fantasy starts sounding sorta childish once it's given words. And second, it helps me remember that playing out the fantasy might bring me to a humiliating and even dangerous space rather than simply into the fantasy. (See the book excerpt found on the GYE home page, First Day of the Rest of My Life. It says to focus on the gross places this has brought you, not to the few minutes of pleasure -- indeed the ratio might not be so pretty.) Let me try that.
ZemirosShabbos wrote on 03 Nov 2010 21:26:

I'm not feeling like a 12-step kinda guy (unlike so many in the Forum who seem to find SA meetings the best thing since sliced bread; different strokes for different folks?). So, I lack a sponsor etc to call. And I've assumed the details of the 'beans' could be triggering to most guys around here. So I've been feeling sorta isolated and alone, having no one to bounce this off of. Are there really guys who could handle this role with me? Speak up, folks, that might REALLY help my ability to process this s**tuff.
1daat wrote on 04 Nov 2010 04:50:

Yeah, I know if I leave it alone it'll heal faster and with less risk of infection. The less I feed it, the less hungry it will be. But childishness suggests that the fixing the short-term itch is simply to scratch it. That's really my whole challenge this week.

And also, in a brutal honesty I don't even want to take, I've realized that part of these fantasies might somehow be related to some issues of family origin (mom and dad) and other stuff I've largely ignored for years. (After each round of exploration, I assume I'm done and at peace with it.) If the fix involves taking these issues to the shrink's couch (again...) and looking under the scab, I'm not sure I'm ready to go. At least not right now when I'm still feeling vulnerable. Oy.

Briut,

I do not know if I am up to being the person you confide in and "spill the beans" to, but I am definitely willing to try. You may prefer someone who is in a similar situation to you or someone who is at a more similar stage in life. This is all up to you. But, whether you take up my offer or not, I hope you get chizuk from knowing that I am truly here for you - as I think we all are.

Hatzlacha, brother.

Wow, Dovey. You're very kind. (And probably sorta brave, too. Probably even braver than you could guess.)  I'll PM. Thanks.

I'm sure you will get lots of responses to this one.  I and I'm sure many others would be happy to do this.  One of the benefits for me in the SA groups is to get LOTS of experience hearing people talk about very crazy, insane and sometimes downright sick things they (we, I) have done or wanted to do.  Its hard for me to imagine someone sharing something sicker than things that I've done or thought about but your certainly willing to give it a try.

Jooboy wrote on 04 Nov 2010 17:34:

I think any GYE guy, whether or not SA-experienced, would have to hold a big streak of masochism to hear unfiltered, unplugged stories of what someone else is pondering, planning, performing. Unless he's REALLY secure in his recovery. (Or unless he's REALLY looking for a kosher way to slip, himself. Oy.)

But if you [or anyone else here] is really serious, just drop me a PM and I'm willing to try one round of it as a two-sided trial. Of course, the person I might really be worried about triggering in story-telling is ME, but I've got to find that out the [difficult] way, I suppose.

Your offer is generous, selfless, and kind. Thanks.  - Doc

I had a really really inspiring (for me, at least) thought during davening this morning that I thought I would share.

We ask in Amidah for 'mevorech ha'shanim' -- to bless our years. We should have good crops and the fat of the earth like in those good years. And of course the literal translation (the poshut pshat, for you of little English background ) is blessing the YEARS.

This morning my mind started going into two other places with this.
1. ha'shanim - our CHANGES.  Please, Hashem, bless the CHANGES we make in our life, for good! Or as Tom Hayden of '60s revolutionary fame said, he thought his generation would CHANGE the world. And they did. And, he said, they changed it for the worse and messed it all up; he now hopes that the next generation can IMPROVE the world! So, let's daven that our CHANGES (at GYE) are GOOD and DO good (ha'tov v'hamaytiv).

2. ha'shanim - our 'seconds' (as in, two).  Please, Hashem, don't just GIVE us second chances but help us use them for GOOD. Thanks, Hashem, for second chances.

A nice remez for us all, I'm hoping. Anyhow, a gevaldige Shabbos to all. - Briut

beautiful thought! thanks for that, have a great shabbos and good luck finding the right partner! (it's helped me TREMENDOUSLY)

Beautiful!

Have a great shabbos.

that's a nice idea about making changes, Briut, thanks for sharing. there is a certain thrill in rebellion and being a maverick. Hashem should help us channel that to the right thing. Like being willing to see Facebook or similar sites for what they are, giant mousetraps with yummy cheese. millions of people use it but it is so much safer and healthier for us to stay away. viva la rebellion!

How are you doing, Briut?

--Eye.

Eye., amush: thanks for asking. The short answer is I don't know how the heck I'm doing. My moods are up and down. My erotic urges come in and out in waves. (My wife thinks it's GREAT, and B'H it's the right week for that.) And I don't know if slow and steady means that the reward is consummate with the effort (i.e., do MORE), or if the only goal is to LG&LG (let go and let Hashem, i.e., do LESS).

Such a big difference in my mind:

DO LESS??
Sometimes, I'm stuck on a path in front of some great big brick wall blocking my way. Is the goal just to lie down and go to sleep until Hashem brings me where He wants me to be? (After all, the put the wall there to block the path from where I THOUGHT I wanted to be, so clearly He has another plan; just let Him do it!) The less done, the better, under this option. LG&LG.

DO MORE??
And sometimes, I'm thinking I have to put out maximum hishtadlus. "It's all just luck; and the harder I work, the luckier I get." Do I think Rav Elyashiv became 'himself' because he sat home and waited for Hashem to bring him to the right place? Do I think that moving one little twig is enough hishtadlus to expect Hashem to move the whole tree? NO NO NO. I've got to do everything I possibly can, with every ounce of strength, I tell myself, in order for Hashem to do everything that I'll need.

The balance between those two extremes is what's eating up my kishkes this week. In parnassa, in shalom bayis, in parenting. Lie down in serenity, or run a marathon?!

But don't worry, guys, I'm okay. It's just work. Heavy work, yeah, but always brings me someplace good. I'm not scared, I'm just working. Work in progress - aren't we all?

Gut voch; gut Chodesh. Kislev. Kis, lev. May my heart come to reach what I can reach from my own pocket .

Briut wrote on 07 Nov 2010 17:11:


We've got to try not getting caught up in the highs, or dragged down by the lows.  Sort of look for an inner peace, no matter what is going on around us.  Try to hold an even keel; at least try not to get knocked around so much.

--Eye.

Eye. You're right, as I usually experience you to be. Thanks for the observation.

To be real honest, even keel doesn't excite me as much as the drama of the swing. I don't really like the lows but I do sorta miss those highs, goes the expression. Even keel is a nice abstract goal but I seem to have a real addiction to the drama of the ups and downs.

Is there a Mood-Lovers-Anonymous (MLA) meeting out there somewhere?

(You know:  the serenity to change what I cannot accept )

Oy. Life. Hashem has not only infinite wisdom but apparently an infinite sense of humor, as well. Oy.