Briut wrote on 27 Jul 2010 22:58:


and since when do our feelings get to rule our lives?
you and i both know that if we let that happen,
we will not be "feeling" so happy with the outcome.
Briut, working on this is what we can do, bit by bit.
success in the matter is not in our hands.
sounds like you're making some headway.

Thanks for these great comments. I'll be thinking about them and hope to comment soon.

In the meantime, though, I've realized that I could use a few minutes over the phone tonight with some flavor of "accountability partner." My wife is going away overnight, and I'd rather not fall simply because the bedroom is unsupervised.

Maybe 10 minutes or so tonight at about 11 ET? (I have anonymous and free Google Voice, btw.) I won't post this on 'about to fall,' because I'm not it's a crisis. A little chizuk, though, could be good preventive medicine.

PM or post here. Thanks. - Doc

Crisis averted, I think. Wife is off for night, kids are sleeping, I'm at my COMPUTER (w/o serious temptation, btw), and will probably just fall asleep soon. Thought it would be a bigger deal, but now I'm feeling like it's "much ado about nothing" or something like that. It's almost too bad: I had figured that when the cat's away the mice would play. This mouse is just tired - tired as in sleepy and tired as in making this a big dramatic battle with the Y'H. I think when (if?) the Y'H comes to visit when I'm alone in my bed, I'll just send him off for pizza. In a bad neighborhood. Without a bulletproof vest. Hah.

Hey! Any opportunity to connect with fellow members of the great GYE Kehilla is a good enough excuse. Besides, there is no such thing as "much ado about nothing" in matters like these; you can't be too careful.

Hope it went well last night. 

1daat: Thanks for asking.

The answer, if you can decode it, is: Day 144 [odaat]. B'H, I suppose.

[Just realized the bilingual pun in your name -- is it 'da'at' as in understanding or 'ODAAT' as in 12-steps. Hmmnn.]

I suppose time flies when you're having, er um, when you're having, er um... when does this begin to be having 'fun?' Or maybe as R'Noach (Weinberg) would say: pleasure and happiness are not the same thing. I'm still working on that one, I suppose.

Good Shabbos, y'all.

Briut is the yom yom Yid.  No matter what, no matter the nisayon--wife away, computer on, mice.  Mice??? Cats, mice, pizza for yetz--and day by day you just keep on, battle by battle, now with low calorie drama (never tastes as good).  Left foot right foot.  Yom Yom (ya'amas lanu).

Thanks for being here.  Well, just thanks for being.

I took my kids to a big amusement park. Lots of fat people, of course (welcome to the USA where an hour of minimum wage buys you 8 burgers). But also lots of attractive ones: half-dressed & fully-dressed.

And the truth is, I did pretty well at averting my eyes. But, I'll confess, I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO AVERT MY EYES! REALLY!

Okay, having said it... I must explain myself (esp on THIS website). You see, I'm having a difficult time separating 'love' from 'lust' when it comes to 'desire' with my wife. The love isn't there as much as I'd like, and certainly not enough to replace all the lust I've used over the years to, er, keep things moving.

And the idea of pushing away the lust BEFORE feeling the love settle in is starting to feel like cart-before-horse.

Yeah yeah I know the SA and Chazal sources about needing to clear out lust so love will have a place to dwell. But today, to be brutally honest, it seems like I've evicted a family of 12 from this 'place' and left nothing but a housesitter inside. Sure, the moving truck might be en route with new & better tenants, furniture etc. But right now it's feeling kinda... empty.

As a thread on the married men's forum says, I don't know how to 'perform' well without lust. I don't know how to find excitement. I just want to watch a little eye candy and get that familiar zing that will let me have a fun & exciting early bedtime with the wife.

I don't really want one white-knucked day at a time. I want one baby step at a time. Today, no eye candy women; tomorrow, no eye candy men; the day after, leave post-it love notes for the wife; etc. Why do we have to go cold turkey in this stuff?

Okay, it's all kefirah here. I know it. I'm just trying to document how I'm feeling today.... Thanks for listening (if there's anyone there).

Sure Doc, we're listening! - with our fingers plugging our ears in order not hear your kefirah!  > > > > > >




Hey! Don't get insulted! I was just trying to answer in your language!  ;D




The big bad old king has many tricks and illusions in his bag. Don't fall for any of them.


We are very happy to read that in fact you held firm:Briut wrote on 03 Aug 2010 20:14:

And the truth is, I did pretty well at averting my eyes.

As to the next part:Briut wrote on 03 Aug 2010 20:14:

But, I'll confess, I REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO AVERT MY EYES! REALLY!

Chazal instruct us that a person should not say "I refrain from eating pork because I dislike it"; rather he should say, "I want it, but what should I do? my father in Heaven forbade me from eating it!"


Finally, concerning your last lines:Briut wrote on 03 Aug 2010 20:14:

Okay, it's all kefirah here. I know it. I'm just trying to document how I'm feeling today.... Thanks for listening (if there's anyone there).

There is great benefit from spreading your thought out in front of your friends. We can help you think them through and sort them out. Your life's work takes a lifetime to accomplish. Hashem doesn't expect you to finish it all in a single day. And neither should Briut!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

















BTW The Baal Shem Tov says that even though the Y"H is just fulfilling his job. He was sent to entice us to sin. He will be killed when Moshiach comes. he deserves punishment for painting mitzvos as aveiros & aveiros as mitzvos. That is not part of his mandate!

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 03 Aug 2010 20:34:


The Vilna Gaon on Rus (וַתֵּרֶא, כִּי-מִתְאַמֶּצֶת הִיא לָלֶכֶת אִתָּהּ) says that when the Y"H sees that he can't get you to do an aveira he convinces you to do a mitzvah in the hope getting you to do other aveiros.  A good example would be staying up to learn late and then missing tefillah b'tzibbur (not the Gaon's example).  The Gaon explains that the way one knows whether the is a real mitzvah as opposed to a Y"H mitzvah is by the energy he has to do the mitzvah.  Since a person is created from the earth, there should be a natural lethargy to do mitzvos.  If a person is very excited and full of energy to do a mitzvah, he has to be suspicious of where that energy is coming from.

Bruit, I would say the way you are kicking and screaming about having to avoid looking and lust you don't have to worry about the Y"H.  Your averting your eyes is a true mitzvah and the Y"H is certainly not the one pushing you to do it.

Briut wrote on 03 Aug 2010 20:14:


Briut wrote on 27 Jul 2010 22:48:


Bruit, I tell you what you help me learn how to tell my wife everything and I'll help you learn how to perform by only lusting for your wife.

ur-a-jew wrote on 04 Aug 2010 02:06:

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughts and the chizzuk. I'll be pondering.

One edit, though, if I may to ur-a-jew... I don't think we're talking about how I'll learn to perform by only lusting for my wife. [That would be too simple, eh?] I think we're talking about how to perform without lust at all. You see, if I'm gonna be lusting, it's most likely to be after a fantasy that she's not biologically equipped to fulfill. So I think I'm limited to that area where performing comes as a result of pure love, without lustful intent at all.

THAT IS A VERY TRICKY, VERY HIGH MADREIGA, in my view. Not impossible, but tricky.

But you see, if I banish the lust that's linked to aveira, and I feel sorta lacking (not 100%, just sorta) in the lust that's "typical" between a husband and wife, I think I'm 'stuck' in the goal of a marital life through love alone, and without lust.

[And, to be a little heavy but also totally candid... until I can even start toward that tricky madreiga, I have to acknowledge that I resent her when I find myself without lust at all. I have to stop holding it against her that I'm sending my lust away on vacation. Because if I start resenting her for that, there's no room for love to enter the equation. And I'm left with nothing.]

I'll try to edit this in the morning when I have more of my wits about me to form sentences....

All madreigos and 'anatomical innequiptedness' aside, I can testify (and so can my wife), that there can be sex without noticeable lust. And that it can be very, very nice...and that we are powerless to make it so.

If you (and the wife) can take a minute before getting together sexually for a silent personal prayer, I think it might help. We have done this and it helped a lot. I asked Hashem to help us be here for each-other and that I see my wife as Shprintza-gened'l-bruchaleh (or, if that's not her name for some strange reason, put the real one here ;D...just kidding...). To help you be loving (giving) to her and who she is, as imperfect as both of you are. Even though I don't deserve such a thing, at all. Even though I don't deserve her, at all.

Things are different for at least 5 minutes after such a prayer from the heart...nu. 5 minutes ain't that bad, I figure.

And consider letting her make up her own prayer rather than suggest one, cuz she's not a lust addict, just confused...she probably knows what she wants from G-d, though. 

Sorry if this comes off as "instructive"...I am only trying to share and suggest.

g'nite

A'hlan wassah'lan, Doc...

Make Allah proud!

Sincerely,
Jamanaeyhabmousa Achmedbachari

This definitely is "over my head", madrega-wise.

dov wrote on 04 Aug 2010 04:10:


Such love I've never known.  I trust Dov completely.  So it is possible.  maybe for me some day, maybe not.

I hope you guys will continue your discussion for a while.  I'll be listening in.

Briut, I learn from your conscientiousness and perseverance to leave no stone unturned in sorting out your relationship to yourself, your wife and to Hashem. Many thanks for sharing all your avoda with the rest of us.