dov wrote on 11 Jun 2010 03:24:

OK, I've thought about this for a little while. And... I just can't buy it right now: I can't tell myself "I cannot trust my judgment of right and wrong when it comes to lust." (At least, not any less than about anything else. Hashem runs the universe.)

Having trust in myself, as a partner with Hashem in the world of action including my own life, is part of the package I call my self-esteem. It's not the ego-full "I'm in charge; I can call the shots." It's the eved Hashem's, "I trust that I can follow the signals You give me, as best as I can."

Maybe that's somewhere a lack of bitachon that He can bring me through it. Or maybe it's just a recognition that sometimes Tatty says, "okay zeeskeit, not yet but maybe tomorrow." But it doesn't feel like a lack of trust in myself.

Trust in myself, and knowing my limits, has been my pattern ever since I became shomer shabbos (decades ago), and it's hard to see it changing: He loves and appreciates my 98% kedusha, and forgives my 2% tumah as "not yet but maybe tomorrow."

It's been a huge kick in the pants to end up on GYE -- somehow -- hashgacha pratis at work here -- and to figure out that Hashem was saying, "now." But it's exactly my thought of "I CAN trust my judgment and I WILL listen when the message hits me" that's gotten me so far.

Maybe we're just talking about semantics about "trust" and "listening" and all that.... Or maybe my self-image as "not an addict" is kicking in to rebel against Step 1. But I'm gonna have to give more thought to this "I don't trust myself" routine.

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 11 Jun 2010 17:08:

Seven seas. Seven courses. Seven shepherds.
[Check, and checkmate, ZS!]

Time to go and help prepare for the seventh day of the week. Good Shabbos, good choidesh to all.

Briut wrote on 11 Jun 2010 15:42:


answer to #1  woodford

                #2    woodford   
          #3 woodford

oh after the 3rd woodford youll see the kasha was never shver

I do not subscribe to Rav Twerski's whole emphasis on consciously working toward self-esteem. Perhaps it is a great idea for non-addicts to help save them from getting entangled in dependency...but once I got in, working on self-esteem was like spitting in the wind. I am naturally disgusted with myself as an addict and that's that.

Now, I need to be sober so I do not lose everything and die in shame as many others have, and in the meantime, it seems I have gained a considerable measure of self-esteem...I feel that it was a gift. Maybe it's semantics, maybe not. All I know is that the other way doesn't work for me. I basically threw my life away for lust - and believe it would be just plain dishonest for me to demand of myself that every step of recovery be filtered through the lens of self-worth and esteem. I dumped that stock when it plummeted to zero and will not buy it back.

I am an addict in recovery and I choose to believe that, at least for me, self-esteem is a gift from Hashem, period. Being directly  concerned with growing and maintaining it would have stymied me completely, I think. See...I still think too much ! (I think)

Hey Guys,

Time to really trash Briut...he's gone off the deep end...pile up!!!!!!!!!

Briut! We love you man and all I have to say is that YOU CAN DO IT!!!

Next time you think of acting out think of Helen Thomas...go on You Tube and watch her video and get her image into your head...forget the Jewish stuff for now; let's get easy/practical...go and watch her over and over again...so the next time you want to burst...she sure as heck will bring you back to yourself.

Have a good shabbos my anonymous friend.

Y

If I posted anything in an unnecessarily rough way, it was unintentional and I am really sorry. 

But "trash Briut"? "Trash"? Aye caramba! :o

I love Briut so much that I am not afraid to tell him anything! And I can say it to him as plainly and straightly as possible! He's a big boy...he can take it. Nu, if he doesn't want to hear it or takes me as insulting that is his business, not mine.

Shalom chaveirim!

just read through a few pages of this thread... wow. Some amazing stuff is going on here... Just got enough ACES for the week!  ;D

Help me out, chevra. Please.

OK, so asking “why not fall for a day” is a non-starter. It’s just too charged a topic. So I’m going to try another vector….  What if I changed the facts just a little... to sound like this:

“Dear Guard: I’m a hunter. Or, at least, a Jew with desires for hunting. Or whatever you call it here, maybe Shotgun Shooting Attraction .  I’m simply wired to like to shoot animals. I’ll even take pistol practice at a target range if I have to. It’s just who I am.

“Anyhow, I came to your site to try staying clean for 12 days. I actually went much longer: no hunting animals, not even cleaning the gun. Finally, on day 69, the physical symptoms and emotional stress just felt too extreme, and I “decided” to fall for a day. I shot several deer, felt much more focused, and got back on count the next day. That was 98 days ago, KE’H.

“Well, the symptoms are getting bad: irritable with the aishes chayil and kinder; distracted at work; my psychiatric state taking a dive. I just want a day off to shoot a few deer. Get it out of my system, start again.

“I’ve heard all your arguments: hunting is a terrible aveira; making a treife is one of sheva mitzvoth bnei Noach; it hurts myself and not just the animal; my wife can sense when there’s blood on my hands. And on and on.

“But I’m new at this. It’s only my second round. If I wait until the urge to hunt is overwhelming, well, I may shoot something bad. Waiting takes a toll on my family, work, income, moods. Why wait for a painful and expensive superfall later, when I can take a “little” day off now and stay sane? Hashem loves me for trying, even if I think I need a breather. I know that when I make too much of a change in my life, too quickly, the results aren’t always so lasting. It can even be ugly.

So, help! Insights from other hunters would be helpful (esp those who’ve been reading my thread)!

If staying sober (even from hunting) is accomplished primarily by holding one's breath (or even from taking lessons and working steps in order to hold one's breath mo betta), then there will be lots of problems. Somebody's gonna get shot or something, for sure.

I think that when you can put all these 'arguments' aside, rely on what brought you here in the first place, and keep going, that's the indication that you've have taken that huge step in your recovery! Forget the 90 days!

Simply; you won't stop acting out till you actually stop! Sorry, but that's the only way this is going to work! You have stopped! Now you've gotta stay stopped though!

Then again, I'm no-one to guide you here... What do I know about sobriety, recovery, and all that crap? On this subject I can be as useless as a jam sandwich to a drowning rabbit.

But since you asked for thoughts, I think Dov makes a good point!

Don't forget to ace the woodford one

Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but then again, neither does milk.

So pass the rineh mashke, please...

Aarrgh.

I keep bumping into the advice I'm giving others here -- don't try to force out tumah, but rather fill up with kedusha so that there's no more home left for tumah and it simply goes away.

Am I "walking the walk" on this one, right now. Ouch.

I'm SO tempted, intellectually and in my body, to simply open the drain valve on the building accumulation of psychological and physical mess I'm feeling right now in  GYE areas. And I really might do it. (I'm thinking it would be cool to get to day 100, but that's not really my point here.)

But... I'm not listening to my own (good?) counsel to others. The goal is... to fill up with kedusha and not just get rid of... RID. (Oh, I crack myself up sometimes. Rid of RID . Haha.)

So is there a way to fill up with kedusha that will fill up my head enough to get my work done. To deal with my wife lovingly. With the kids calmly. With my appropriately. Fill with kedusha, not banish chet.

I'm at least willing to stop the plans for the superfall marathon until I have a good good answer to that question. Otherwise, I'm a hypocrite. Which would hurt me much more than losing my count.

Back to work, Briut. You've got a patient in the waiting room.

OK, getting a little closer to clarity.
You 'machers' on the site aren't gonna like it. Not one little bit.

I've gone back to basics -- "why did I get onto this site."

The answer doesn't stem from disgust over P*n & M*n issues. It doesn't stem from fear over sin & its consequences. It's based in the idea that I'm trying to be in a better place in my marriage. I want sholom bayis. So I'm following Garden of Peace (the book). And I got here via a kaballah that I could "hold my breath" and "stay clean" for 12 days.

By that score -- the marriage -- my stay at GYE has been pretty successful. I've learned a lot about being a husband, a father, a giver, (incidentally a lover), a man. And as a side effect, I've found to my incredible shock that it may be time to abandon certain se*ual activities & fantasies etc that I had figured were just permanently hard-wired into me. Which has sorta "rocked my world." But I'm following where Hashem leads me, and here I am.

So now, we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether my notions, or any notions so engrained and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of this war.... Whoops, wrong speech, or maybe not.

In any case, I'm now battling the desire for GYE progress with the desire for enough sanity to wake up again tomorrow and continue the larger battle. Is it better to fall today and continue tomorrow, or better to hold on today in the thought that tomorrow will look and feel better.

I fear the smart money is betting that I've just taken on too much, too fast, too intensely. I need to slow down, to take a sustainable pace, to continue working at a level where I also have energy to promote what I came for in the first place -- sholom bayis.

I'm going to do a lot of heavy soulsearching, preferably with briut-al honesty, about whether a little break from this world will give me energy to fight the other battles and return victorious to this one. I don't know. But I do know that the answer isn't going to come from the guys here. It's going to come from deep inside me.

PS: Another take on all of this, that I almost didn't say:

I expect some of you will think (and some may post or PM - have at it!) that "choosing" to sin is automatically a nonstarter toward finding brachas (incl sholom bayis).  But I perform plenty of sins in many areas. Slowing down a bit on one might lead to better progress on aveiras. Is it better to keep your hands than to eat a cheeseburger? To daven without kavannah? To speak ill of your wife on a public webpage ? The naked argument that it involves aveiros simply isn't going to work.

I've tried applying the moshol of the fox coaxing the fish to jump away from the fisherman's net onto the dry land. But I'm not sure I wouldn't find a day on dry land harder than a day swimming from nets. Until I get a couple more swimming lessons under my belt, I might need to get out of the water every once in a while.

I've been rambling. I'll stop. Bottom line: I promise to stop beating myself up at the notion of "balancing" my energies across more of my life goals. And where that attitude takes me, I can only daven that Hashem bring me to a good place and that I have the to follow His path.

Anyhow, read what I posted a few minutes ago and let me know where you think I might be headed for trouble. Because with a little (okay, a LOT) of self-awareness and brutal honesty, I'll be back for giant steps when the time is really right and the progress can really take root. And there's nothing saying I can't take some baby steps in the meantime.