First to stick his neck out! I call it!! ....what was the issue again?

Oh, yeah. The kashering (at least to pareve) of chizzuk e-mail material. Yeah, it seems that when it comes to me spewing lust-wing...oops! - I meant left-wing - stuff that sounds sorta-like "if you don't do the 12-steps like I do, you are a polack!" it's OK to soften it a bit...but when this guy has the garbanzos to put his issue right out there, it's a problem! I cry foul!

OK, maybe I'm wrong for two reasons:
1- Guard only puts disclaimers on my stuff (which I definitely agree with!) but leaves them essentially eau originale', and 2- I had no Woodford after the fish at shalosh-seudos this Shabbos, and am suffering from bds - yes, that ancient dread disease otherwise known as "bardichev deficiency syndrome"....I'm told there may not be much time left....daven for me, Briut (or keep that shtraimel in your pocket and just give me a l'chayim).

But I digress. Actually, I think that it may be helpful for some e-mail readers to actually witness a guy or two (or three) on the forum put his exact brand of weirdness out there - it can break the ice for fellow sufferers who are still deep in "the closet in Egypt". (?)

On the other hand, there are some more nearly "normal" people who get the Chizzuk e-mails. It's not the forum, it's public mailings, after all. Those lucky guys out there might see explicitness or specifics as being unhealthy for them to read about. They may think the forum is too extreme to possibly be appropriate for them and unsubscribe.

Now, some program buddies I have would say, "To heck with 'em. What business is it of yours! That's their problem!"

But GYE (and especially it's Chizzuk e-mails) isn't "the Program". It's a community service and support group, and I think that's different. Anybody see it differently?

This sounds like a great discussion.

dov -

WOW!
I've received sooo many compliments on YOUR emails!

seems you signed off one of your posts as DOVNOT yetin Israel... and many people thought it was me!

and THEN they thought I was being sooooo humble by denying the post in the first place!

so firstly:

THANKS for all the amazing, wonderful, uplifting posts!
(that is from me and well as a summary of the responses I received which I belive were intended for you. )

I did clarify for future reference - that my posts tend to be more saracistic...yours tend to be more postive and encouraging!
but I did agree to read more of your posts and try to learn to be more giving and encouraging)

and as for this thread (if anyone is still listening to my babble) ... I sign off as DovInIsrael... you signed off as DovNotYetInIsrael..

aren't we all NOT YET IN ISRAEL (including those of us who are in the physical land)

if we were truelly in EREZ ISROEL, we would be truely DEDICATED to Hashem...in our ever action, our every thought...of course we all have challenges...our thoughts wander, our eyes glance, e tc. but this is all part of the challenge and reward system to bring us closer to Hashem. Its not supposed to easy...  it is THE challenge that makes the victory so great!


ok so Bruit has his challenge, I have mine, you have yours Bard has his...and as hard as it is to imagine , even our helige Guard, probably also has his challenges (side from having to deal with all of us nut-cases) ...that is what puts us into the MAJOR LEAGUES, and a sign that Hashem truely loves us and cares about us...He wants us to win...and to WIN BIG!!!.

can you imagine your faviorite professional team being invited to play an opening game against a local little league team...and then the professional team throwing a city wide party because they beat the other team.

We are here for the BIG time! BECAUSE we are WINNERS!


ok - now if anyone is still awake, can you please summarize what I just said, because I have no clue!

Something about a grey goose and zionism, I think.....

okey dokey.

reminds me of a joke -

how do you get down from an elephant ?

ans: you don't. you get down from a goose!

Well, rabosai, before we get too far afield, I want to add one thing to the discussion of "how much airbrushing for the public face of GYE."

Namely, I feel a strong need to APOLOGIZE PUBLICLY TO GUARD. My haste to get a post going before Shabbos led to a response that in hindsight I see could be a public challenge to his personal discretion. Which is painfully, embarrassingly, wrong of me.

We've all seen the result of the thousands of decisions Guard has made, with Hashem's loving guidance, to build a place that's helping so many. We might not all see the perfection of any individual decision, but it's obvious that Guard's path is true and the Hand that's guiding him is true.

My post might have made it sound like a challenge to his vision or implementation. Nothing could be further from the truth (as far as I know). He's awesome. But for the implication -- I'm very sorry.

I realized this issue over Shabbos and resolved to go online right after Shabbos to withdraw the post. But then Guard had already commented and put it out for discussion. So I'll defer to his tastes here and allow it to stand. But Guard, I apologize publicly for seeming chutzpahdik.

NOW, AS TO HIS QUESTION OF HOW MANY WARTS BELONG ON THE PICTURES IN THESE PUBLICATIONS -- I'M AS CURIOUS AS HE IS. LET'S GIVE HIM THE COURTESY OF A RESPONSE. (I'LL HOLD MY OWN THOUGHTS FOR NOW....)

why did you change your picture again? i kind of liked it. this one seems to go back to the scary doctor office nightmare thing!

dov wrote on 25 Apr 2010 03:56:


Hmmnn. Maybe I have a little Torah analogy for us here. The proof comes from the ketores (incense).

Chelbana.
We read every day that one part of the ketores is the chelbana. It smells yukky. We’re told He commanded it as a reminder that even yukky folks are entitled into the Temple. I had always thought this was a reminder to the Pure Ones to allow the Yukky Ones to enter. [Like Kol Nidre tells us to let the worst sinners join on Yom Kippur.] I’m wrong on this: Chazal teach, the message of the chelbana isn’t intended for the pure ones. It’s for the ones who miss the mark, that we should smell the chelbana and realize we’re also part of the Temple scene. “Wake up and smell the [coffee], and come on down.”

Yayin Kafrisin.
We also learn from the command to use yayin kafrisin (putrid wine) to mix things up. It’s not Bard’s bourbon that goes into the ketores, it’s Steve’s pickle juice. It could even be mayim raglayim. Turning the basic spices into kosher ketores means mixing it up with some of the yuckiest stuff on earth. The yukky components are not an “inconvenient truth” but an essential part of mixing things together.

Dvash.
Finally, we see that it’s forbidden to add any honey into the mix. Why single out honey? Because if any were added, we’re taught, the smell would be irresistible. What’s wrong with that? Why shouldn’t we help everyone enter the holiest place on earth? What’s bad with a little sugar-coating on the smell for those who might not come on their own? A little sin of omission? Where’s our kiruv rechokim, dude?

No! Sugarcoating the holy incense is bad because folks have to enter the Temple on their own, willingly. With conscious knowledge of the implications. Making it so sweet and pretty and tidy that folks come in without seeing the real picture – well, we’re told that is wrong. Honey-coated ketores is possul.

Maybe this has to do with free will:  we have to know what we’re getting into, without any sugar coating of honey, and then also to know it’s a “come as you are party” without having to ditch the foul smells before coming in. Ketores ain’t dipped in dvash because people ain’t dipped in dvash – we’re gritty and complicated and sometimes dipped in something not very honey-like. We’ll never smell the scent of “ourselves” in something masked in sugar coating.

I’m guessing all this has something to do, somehow, with the question of how many warts should show on the public faces of the Forum members. But I’m not sure if I’ve got the true nimshal here, so I’ll leave that to you. I’m just thinking how grateful I am to HKB’H that he allows a little smelly spice into the holy ketores, just to give me a chance to recognize my own scent and return Home.

No need to apologize. I am sorry you took offense at all. Glad we cleared that one up  :D

PS: Yo, guys, I ain't keepin' this issue alive for nuthin'. Guard was asking for thoughts on how 'sanitized' members should appear in the more 'visible' parts of the program like the chizuk emails. I find the question truly fascinating! Where are the comments?

There probably aren't many folks reading the thread (boo hoo); maybe not so many on the site at all.  But come on, guys, take a look and get some thoughts out there! Good ones, bad ones, whatever.  Guard wants to hear from us.

If you read this and don't post, I'll assume that you will need taunting.
Your mother wears army boots. Your wife finished your Woodford. Your 90 chart lies. Er, um, your, your, your rabbi is selling pictures of you from Purim!..........

Warts.

We all have warts.

I have Bardy's warts, Shmendink has Bardy's, Dov WISHES he had mine, but he has to pay Human Being for the ones he took from me and is selling on E-Bay.

I think Dr. Briut is getting obsessed by warts. Even his stethoscope has them. Or are those Guards?

I guess it's time we all put dry ice on each other's warts and just CHILL OUT!!!

We all have complete FREEDOM to open up on this forum, share, get the monsters out of the closet, an revel in our anonymity. And we all realize by now we get our cliques, our own set of loyal followers, and our own list of places we visit cuz we all have limited time. So those who need to see our ramblings, those who can stomach us and those who can help, will be there to see the real us. Not everyone of the HUNDREDS of members will see and benefit from what we have to give on any given post.

But THERE IS ONE SPECIAL GUY who keeps tabs on ALL OF US, searching thru our posts for what he feels in his sensitivity will be MOST USEFUL for the KLAL. He works tirelessly and OVERTIME and creates what must be the most thought-provoking yet delicate balance of words for the Chizuk Emails. I consider it a KOVOD if he feels any of my words are worthy of being publicized more. They are HIS direct contribution, not MINE. Mine is in the posts themselves, which contain not a little ego. His has a different purpose, one which takes my ego out of the equation.

I give Rabbeinu Reb Guard my fullest endorsement to airbrush, whitewash, tweak, and edit anything I ever say or write for whatever purpose he deems necessary, as long as my anonymity is not jeopardized.

Royalties will be decided later.

The doctor in me is still trying to figure out exactly how you all acquired each other's warts.....uh-oh , bad choice of words, there. Sorry!  ;D 

Oh, this is awful and embarrassing and yukky. But I have to get it down into the thread in the interest of honesty.

Here's a down payment of my thinking. More to come as I have time for computering.

Namely, you'd think I'd be HAPPY that certain urges are going away and my ability to walk away from certain aveiras is strengthening.

But I've realized-- er, um, I'm NOT.

Why not? Because for so long I had been wearing my challenges on my sleeve.
> As a badge of honor for how "different" I was and how "amazing" I've been for conquering so much for so long.
> As an excuse to avoid all kinds of growth in my frumkeit.
> As a convenient tool for avoiding certain flavors of emotional (not physical, emotional) intimacy with my wife.
> As a way to feel special, different, deserving of G-d's love as compensation for the challenges He gave me.
> I could go on and on. What a bunch of ego ego ego mess to have to tackle. Yuk.

The bottom line is, if I'm no longer going to be able to "define myself" in terms of certain sexual orientations, preferences, fantasies, whatever... then maybe I'm scared I've lost my uniqueness, my excuses, my... ahdunno I gotta think about it.

Just when I thought I'd have an easy time of this work for a few weeks.... Darn.

Briut, I love your brutal self-honesty. Dov would have a field day on this post of yours, as he used to feel the same way, but has long given up any uniqueness and "rewards" and "dealing with bigger issues than others" and "doing great avodah", and today tries to just live as Hashem's child, today, to the best of his ability. Lust has become, in his eyes, simply a distraction to being useful to Hashem and to people. 'Beating it' is not longer a "goal in and of itself".

It's a paradigm shift in thinking. Welcome to the club.

For some reason i cant put my finger on i feel similar. all i can say is that it is probably a trade off you should enjoy and that you should convince yourself of it. also this might be a good time to take advantage of all the time wasted doing whatever junk you were doing before and exchange it with a new hobby or an organization that you feel could define you. what i mean is channel your longing to be different in a less useful way (dare i say bad? i am not sure really what you were doing so i can't say) and define your self and make your self different in a good and useful way. i hope you understand what i am saying because to my ears i am not explaining it well. as an example when i get above and beyond 90 days i might decide to instead of watching p**n, mast**bating, and going on GYE i will work out more practice drums more and read more  history books as well as do my work better and things like that i will be defining who i am in a better way and will be more productive. so in your case do something you enjoy and do it more often as well as trying to improve on other things that you would normally be doing what ever it was you were doing instead. if you need me to i will explain it differently because i think i did an injustice to what i had to say to you, myself and anyone else who might feel this way.
but once again to summarize just chose a hobbie to keep busy with and that people could associate you with like they will say "Briut i have noticed how much you know about fish could you tell me a little bit about how you take care of them and what kinds you have?" hope you are able to understand what i am saying through the muddle that i call "a reply" have a great day! and know that you don't have to be unusal or different to feel gratified or loved!

Steve wrote on 25 Apr 2010 20:45:


Thanks Steve for your vote of confidence