Wow Reb Dov you astound me with every single wordthat comes out of your holy mouth!!!

And MOMO YOU ARE NOT ALONE!!!!!! YOU HAVE US ALL ON THE FORUM WHO LOVE YOU FOR JUST WHO YOU ARE!!! PEOPLE WHO DNT GIVE A DAMN IF YOU FALL OF STAY CLEAN!! ( AS IN OUR LOVE FOR YOU ) WE LOVE YOU EITHER WAY!!!


MOMO pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease keep on rockin the forum!!! I need it!! and im sure there are plenty others who get from it too!!!


FELL SHMELL!!!!

Momo.  Don't forget...

You
are
a
very
special
person!

I think that being married busts you down to one star again. I think it's symbloic of how when we get married, we need to remind ourselves to be small... :D

:D Well, maybe we're being reminded that it's normal...

Hi MOMO! I was sorry to hear about your fall, but even more was I impressed by how you posted right away. I know I might not have had the heart to go anywhere near GYE for at least a week. I read what you said about your definition of a fall as opposed to GYE's. I believe you are 100% right.

If you are struggling with porn, and you cant see a way out I believe this is what can be done: Set for yourself two limits, or two catagories. A long term and a short term. The long term goal must fulfill a minimum standard ie. a standard whereby everyone would consider such and such as a fall and not allowed eg. any porn sites etc. A maximum long-term goal might be not to look outside your 4 amos in the street. But that may not be for you. It certainly isnt for me. But the minimum is as I have said. (you dont need to set a maximum and minimum, just that the limit must fulfill this minimum standard). However, you may feel you are far far away from the long-term goal. This is where your short term goal comes in. Set for yourself a certain limit. A limit whereby you feel that it is realistic even for a long long time. But this limit must be something that you still have a taive for. There is no minimum for this short-term limit. Everyone should have his own. That would even mean that your limit may be not to look at hardcore. But softcore is OK. OK meaning it is not a fall. Yes you can still look at porn. Its OK. Or your limit could be not to do something worse than simply looking at hardcore, ie. not to communicate with another live woman on a porn site. Provided you feel that that is a level you are on then fine. So in that case any hardcore porn is still OK. Just remember your long-term goal. You should slowly slowly move your short-term goal closer towards your long-term. It can take 15 years. Does not matter. Each of us at our own pace. In this way, you can continue to not fall within your own limit for a very very long time. And therefore you will never be disheartened by a fall. You will slowly work your way up. So slow the YH wont notice how the limit is gradually moving.

I must add that I am not trying to argue with the entire rulesbook of GYE. I am just suggesting that maybe for someone who has tried and tried, and cant see a way out - this method is suitable. I am not convinced myself that it is correct, and it may very well be completly ossur and you all think I have lost my trolley. It would need the haskoma of the highest order.

Fall, shmall? Having a hard time starting? How does anyone with 1, 3, 5+ years of sobriety start? Good question to ask those with 90 days +. I ask and then listen. 

I started with a clear feeling that I cannot afford to cross certain boundaries again - that I had to grow up. It was painful and I hated it but loved it and can't explain better. It felt different and that was what told me I might be on the right track. "Any track but the old one" was my motto, and still is.
Hatzlocha rabba. Having heard your voice before makes me feel closer to you. You will always be on my sh'ma koleinu davening list. Hope that's OK with you...

With love and great admiration, Momo, whether i'm intelligible to you, or not, 

Dov

dark321 wrote on 26 Jan 2010 18:55:


I can see the logic... but...

So to put this into two different contexts: Addiction "science" and Torah.

The 12-step kind of paradigms definitely seem to push for complete sobriety.  And if you want to go to the basic science level, there has to be effective positive reinforcement for weaning from addiction at each level which may be difficult to accomplish.

Torah?  I've seen some interesting kulos... that I won't repeat. Because of those "leniences" I ended up with the problem that I have now.

Momo still regrets what has transpired so it would seem there is a lot of hope for him starting a clean streak again.  What should he do differently?
I don't think he should be more tolerant of his behavior or substitute it with something counter-productive. 

Momo, I don't know you well enough to suggest something more productive... but may Hashem help you find it.

mekubal.

Momo - v little time left of privacy, just wanted to post here and let you know i'm thinking about you. Hope you are well.

Dov is currently loading his F16 and is on his way over....
EVERYONE TO THE SHELTERS!!!

Momo, I think maybe it would be worthwhile to try changing to a different therapist. I will send you my suggestion by e-mail.

The question you pose has been discussed many many times on this forum and in the chizuk e-mails.

The shorthand answer is simply that when we take full responsibility "action wise" to recover from our addiction, we leave the "results" completely up to Hashem. Powerlessness refers to the "results", but we need to take full responsibility for our recovery and do everything in our power. Only after we do that can we daven and be answered by the "results" committee 

See also yesterday's Shmiras Ainayim e-mail (#334) and this great article on Bechirah here.

See also here: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ20.asp

And here: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ38.asp

Momo wrote on 27 Jan 2010 07:20:


If you can stop for the long term using self control (or Bechira, if you will) then you don't have an addiction.  For an addict, self control is not enough.

guardureyes wrote on 27 Jan 2010 13:47:


Thanks Rav Guard

Momo here's how I would respond to your Bechirah claim. I think that the when the 12 steps mentions powerlessness, it is referring to when the drug enters your body. And not a good amount. Any amount. If an alcholic takes that first SIP of alcohol, he's done. He know longer has the power to decide wheather he is going to take another drink or not. Maybe not now, but sooner or later he is going to take another drink. The same thing applies with lust. Right now I am not powerless over lust. But if lust entered my body, I would be completely powerless over it. The difference between this and another Aveirah is that our bodies and minds dont react to other Aveirahs like they do to lust. If a great piece of gossip comes into my mind, I have the power not say it over to someone else. I am not powerless to Lashon Hara. But lust is a completely different story.

So how do you keep lust out of your mind without constantly thinking about keepping lust out of your mind? By doing that youre going to fall! The answer is as the Big Book says. A new attitude and perspective on life. YOU cant keep lust out of your mind and body because by doing so, ITS IN YOUR MIND. So the next step is realizing that ONLY GOD CAN DO IT.

-Yiddle

Momo - I think that you're correct. We need to figure out what we need to do, and do that...then daven to hashem for help. But part of "what we need to do" may include realizing that we don't have control - so for example, an alcoholic may choose to not go into a bar, because he realizes that putting himself in that situation would be crazy - because he'd be relying on his own power, his own control. So, realizing his own powerlessness, he doesn't put himself into that situation of temptation.

As far as the general bechira question, I don't think that's an issue - see R' Dessler's explanation of bechira (it's in chelek aleph, page 111). In short, we all have our own level of bechira in various areas - bechira is never unlimited. For example, when I pass a Mcdonalds and decide not to go in, that's not a "bechira-decision" - I didn't have to fight. And I have no hope of reaching certain levels (at least, right now), like never saying any lashon hora. My bechira is to work on myself from where I am, and make the right decisions that are on my level.

As far as therapy with your wife - Well, I don't know Rav S. But going to a good therapist with your wife should be a growth experience. It's not about whether or not you'll look at porn, it's about having someone help both of you open up to each other, and helping you work well together. When you have someone else as a major part of your life, you need to work together with them to get well.

How would it make things worse? And do you really feel that things are perfect between you and your wife? Even if they are, though...she's helping you work on your issues - simple as that. She's part of your overall situation that you need to work with to get well.

Would your wife listen to a rebbe or rav if they recommended that she could gain something out of it?

Momo wrote on 27 Jan 2010 15:04:


And to underscore your point Momo even Paroh who "lost his bechira" Chazal say he became the king of Ninveh and ultimately did teshuva (see a beautiful vort in Nesivas Shalom in Parshas Bo titled "Yitzias Mitzayim" which could have been written directly to addicts, except that he felt it was applicable to all Jews)

Momo wrote on 27 Jan 2010 15:04:
Almost every Rishon, when describing the steps of teshuva, includes "Staying away from all those things which can cause him to do the aveira again" as a necessary step.
Why would this be necessary? If anything, the litmus test for whether or not his Teshuva is real, should be - will he do it again when tempted? Why would they instruct us to avoid the nesayon entirely?

MOMO, I think you have to realize the innate weakness we all have as humans, and our job is to work with that weakness at times, and overcome it when possible. Meaning, that Bechirah - although always present - is to be utilized smartly, rather than pushing the envelope as far as possible because "If I really want to I can always be 100% Shomer Torah U'Mitzvos, so I'll just make sure to always really want". Which is a non-realistic mindset, regardless of the existing free will.