wow just read thru your thread you are a fighter!!!!!!! listen You kept on mentioning that you came late to shachris or seder and stressing out about it. Achi obviously in the perfect world we would be up 7:15 every morning to take a quick jog b4 shachris and we would be sitting waiting for our chavrusa 5 minutes b4 seder but we aint perfect and thats ok!!! If we were perfect we wouldnt be in this world, this world is made to try to reach shleimus (sort of perfection). You gotta stop beating yourself up for not being that perfect picture Rabbeim like to paint. You should strive to get there but you may not get there and that OK!!!!!!!!!!!! keep it up my man!!!! 

Just finished Lesson 6 in the Flight For Freedom. Feeling a little lost honestly, anyone else complete that lesson?

Day #14
I woke up today feeling very tired. Did not have a good night's sleep for some reason. This triggered me throughout the day since I had no energy to fight, but I somehow made it through. Seems like the pink cloud has finally faded...
Signing off for the night,
-Dvar Ha'emek

omekhadavar wrote on 24 Jan 2022 05:13:

Another proof that these urges are not "real" and are very temporary. With a little patience, they fade...  Never panic from an urge or trigger.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 25 Jan 2022 12:13:

Hiya HHE

I've never really understood what you mean by this. If my urge is real, it is real. If I fail to withstand it, then it was real, meaning it was powerful enough to make me abandon my logical reality. To say it isn't real seems, to me, to be illogical as it tries to use logic to fight a purely emotional fight. 

An example from my own life. 

I nearly killed myself about six years ago. We don't need to go into how nearly, but suffice it to say I thought my wife and kids would be better off without me. It was a pathetic piece of logic. As logic, it failed on all levels. But emotionally, it made perfect sense. So too with masturbation. If I need it, I need it. Now it's true it doesn't make sense, but in the moment, I just don't see how that helps?

Perhaps you can elaborate? 

bego wrote on 25 Jan 2022 14:21:

it's a type of logic that is prevalent in the orthodox community, sadly. it's a type of brainwashng. similar to nathan, the spokesman from new orleans: michael wants to remain with the community, michael wants to be back with his wife and children, michael needs his community, despite his struggles now, we know what michael truly wants.

now, regarding the masturbation urge, i would say: it is real, breathe thru it, use other tools, for although the urge is strong (and, at times, can be overwhelming and all-too-powerful), you can get to the other side - it has happened before.

Trouble wrote on 25 Jan 2022 14:32:

Thanks, I've never been one for brain washing, especially not to myself! I'm more known for free thinking, which has it's downsides as well.

Yes, i think when you've been clean for a while, you forget how to fight. Like a warrior that has got fat and doesn't recall how to grab his weapons. he also doesn't even recognise a challenge from an enemy. Thinks the enemy is just playing games, until he realises, too late, that the sword is sharp.

As you say, deep breathing...

HHE - would still be glad to hear your view? 

Bego, How do you define “real” ?

i-man wrote on 25 Jan 2022 19:01:

i believe the question should be addressed to reb hhm; he is the one who said that this proves that the urges are not "real." [personally, i think he means that the urges do not [b]need[/b] to be acted upon, and who would disagree with that? now, just because there is no need, doesn't mean that it's not real, nor does it mean that it doesn't get stronger with time, nor does it mean that he's not addicted.]

Trouble wrote on 25 Jan 2022 20:24:

Thank you my friend, I think you brought out my point - the nekudas hamachlokes is what do people mean when they say “real” .

One flaw of a forum is that often the writer and reader understand words differently.

Absolutely.

I mean real in whatever sense it is. Meaning, it's irrelevant. if I fail, it was real. If I don't, it was still real, but logic overcame it. 

That’s a good point , however I think in the context HHM is using it is also a good point and probably a good strategy with the guys he’s working with ( with a proven track record of success ) So I doubt arguing semantics in this instance is beneficial.

Don’t take it the wrong way , I very much enjoy reading banter involving you and trouble.

i-man wrote on 26 Jan 2022 18:06:

Thanks, but I genuinely don't see it as semantics. As HHM argues that this approach can save people. So I'm trying to understand it. To me, those that will succeed, will succeed irrelevant, saying it's not real and you don't need it, isn't going to change it.

I wonder if people experience urges differently. For me this concept was a game-changer, perhaps a life-changer. In the past, when I had an urge, that meant my body was racked with desire, as if on fire, with an understanding that I need ___________ (sex, a provocative video, etc.)  much like thirst that comes from drinking saltwater (the Chovos Halevovos uses that example, I believe) the thirst is real, but the idea that you need to drink more saltwater to relieve the urge is fake. Combined with urges is a voice that says "I need my fix", and prior to a few months ago, I honestly thought it was true, that there was something inside me, perhaps based on some deep psychological need, that I needed my sexual needs to be met in order to calm/tame the urge. Hunger, for example, is an urge, that in healthy people correctly identifies a need to eat. Even though a person can fight the urge and go a while without eating, there the identification of the urge is a need to eat. With sexual urges, it's simply not true, even though the YH convinces us it is. The difference between the two attitudes is huge. If I have a need for sex that I can fight (like hunger) it's a losing battle between what I need (or at least really, really want) versus what is permitted (or perhaps good and moral). What I need will usually win. But if the need for sex is just a mirage (a mirage is also real in the sense that it does in fact look like water), and though it is an uncomfortable feeling, it doesn't mean you need sex, then you can battle the urge, by letting it go, knowing it's an uncomfortable feeling that doesn't mean much.