Markz wrote on 12 Jun 2017 16:12:

Marksz, I just noticed that you also fell, (as did apparently shivisi) I think I will echo what shivisi said, your fall have me chizuk, not just in a selfish way (yes I'm still selfish) but in the way you picked yourself up, brushed off the motor oil, and went right back to trucking. 

On to the next thousand miles, one mile at a time.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 12 Jun 2017 21:40:

It can be done and with Hashems help it shall be done!

Thank you for all your posts, although I still think the slap would have worked... alas what can I do you don't want to go to prison. Although I hear they have

Still a bit bumpy here, I guess after effects of the last fall. I think I will white knuckle for a bit till I can get some clarity of mind again.

Unless I can find a good

Change requires change, I read/hear so many good things every day (usually on the forum) that really speaks to me and I think ya I should do that, till I see the next good thing that I should be doing... And then the next...

Point is if we want to change, we need to do something, I have learned so much on these forums. But change only comes when we decide to take a specific action towards that change. Of course speaking to someone about this change would be ideal, but if not at least post it here or write it down for yourself. 

Anybody relate?

Hakolhevel wrote on 20 Jun 2017 03:23:

I relate very strongly. I say that quote all the time. But I've learned something also about that. I used to get very frustrated with people who would complain about their situation and not do anything to change it. What I've learned now is that "everything happens on God's time." I cannot make anyone change. It will happen when it happens. Even if the evidence is so obvious that someone needs to change, I still can't make them do it. Believe me, I tried. It was one of the most frustrating things ever for me. I even asked Dov about it. He told me to treat those people with love and very gradually show them the way. That's my policy now. I validate and support and accept. If I know the person well enough, I might ask or offer feedback, but many times I don't. If they express that they want help, then I'll try to share my experience, if I have any. Using this method, I've avoided countless frustration and I've also seen amazing results. I wrote on my thread that "validation is a good thing." Validation is an amazing thing. With one particular member, about 2 months ago we started to be in strong contact with each other. He was in the pits. Completely in the pits. Doing awful. Today he expressed to me how he desires sobriety and how he's trying to live one day at a time. And that was just one isolated incident. I'm very close with him and I see the miracles that are happening in his life. I'm not giving myself the credit whatsoever. But I am a big part of his life. He told me that I'm #6, after his wife and kids. His wife told him "I love you" for the first time in three years, to my knowledge. I'm seeing it all over. "Respecting the process" is a big mantra of mine and I practice it with myself and others. So yes, "change requires change." But my experience is that it will only happen when it happens. "It's all on God's time."

Shlomo, 
i think you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes people aren't ready for change. They don't have the faith, belief, or self love. Sometimes doing the action prematurely just wouldn't work for them. It can take compassion from someone like you- like you said you had for them in your communications with them- to make them want and believe in change. Then when they change, it will be for real. 

Shlomo24 wrote on 20 Jun 2017 04:49:

In other words, sometimes change has to happen in "Shlo-Mo"

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 20 Jun 2017 15:12:

I love you, Gev.

Workingguy wrote on 20 Jun 2017 14:35:

Thank you, dude. I never thought about it that way. Cool.

Shlomo24 wrote on 20 Jun 2017 04:49:

Well said Shlomo. Like a user called "One_day_at_a_time once told me: "I can bring the horse to the water but I can't make him drink".

From what I gathered, an idea that helps us transform as people is when we take a close look at the things we do when acting out and the benefit that we have from it and then see the cost (i.e. what we are paying for when we act out), then we change our behavior. We always trade a lesser good for a greater good, so when we realize what it is costing us when acting out against the benefit of it then we quickly realize that we are being ripped off our entire lives.

Shlomo24 wrote on 20 Jun 2017 04:49:

I was actually quoting you! you said "Change requires change" on the first page of my thread!

Anyways I agree very much with what you wrote here, but that deals mostly with others, how about ourselves? We all have dreams of changing, and we may even have specific thoughts of how we will will change, till we come across the next idea and forget about the first... yes "everything happens on G-d's time", but that is more for us to say about someone else, that is not an excuse for ME not to change. So In conclusion, change requires change, but how do we make sure we change?

Does that make any sense?

Mesayin wrote on 20 Jun 2017 20:27:

I am pretty sure I very much disagree. Look at this quote from earlier in my thread. (If I misunderstood you I apologize in advance)


I still believe what I wrote. In the long run, just having a cost benefit analysis will not work. So have I come to an answer? I think so

I think it is realizing that acting out, does not just have all these bad things but it is literally death (and insanity)!

In other words, I don't choose not to act out because I have a big business deal tomorrow and I know Hashem can make that deal go bad, or because I feel guilty being with my wife afterwards... that all doesn't help in the long run, lust/porn/masturbation is just to powerful it will eventually overtake me. It's to sweet/fun and exciting.

What drives my will to change and not act out in the long run (ODAAT) is the realization that it is a matter of life and death. If I give in to lust, I'm not just living a lesser quality life, rather I'm not living life!!!! and that is too steep a price to pay!

For me it comes when I realize that acting out is so destructive to me and my self esteem and values that I don't actually even like it.

But that realization came when I felt good enough about myself, and felt I had better options, than living in the dumps of Lust. 

For me, there's a fine line between acceptance and excusing myself. Sometimes I might cross that line, but that's ok too. If I'm dealing with something and I know that I don't have the willingness or capabilities to change it, then I will not try to change it. I can't force myself to be willing or make myself able to change. It has to come naturally. But I've definitely used unwillingness as an excuse. It usually doesn't last long though, as I live a life of rigorous honesty and sooner or later I'm going to realize that I'm not being honest with myself.

Also, getting to this place happened "naturally" (by working a good program). I'm in good recovery and I got here eventually. I definitely wasn't here in the past. I started praying for acceptance every night a couple of months ago and God decided to let it happen.