That's quite a list. I blinked at it a few times and a few things struck me, which I'll try to write soon. But then it struck me how much you mirror the Big Book. From page 31:


"We have tried every imaginable
remedy. In some instances there has been brief
recovery, followed always by a still worse relapse.....

Here are some of the methods we have tried: Drinking
beer only, limiting the number of drinks, never
drinking alone, never drinking in the morning, drinking
only at home, never having it in the house, never
drinking during business hours, drinking only at
parties, switching from scotch to brandy, drinking
only natural wines, agreeing to resign if ever drunk on
the job, taking a trip, not ta king a trip, swearing off
forever (with and without a solemn oath), taking more
physical exercise, reading inspirational books , going
to health farms and sanitariums, accepting voluntary
commitment to asylums--we could increase the list
ad infinitum."


Can you see how their list was "going in the wrong direction?"

just some words by dov  (to get a perspective)

In my case, focusing on my struggle as having to do with my normal "Yetzer Hara" (evil inclination) was a sure recipe for failure. It made me simply try harder, use new tricks, and get yet more support. The message of AA to me (through SA) was not about any of those. It was about accepting the fact that I am fundamentally different from non-addicts, and accepting that I am not a BAD person getting GOOD, but rather a SICK person getting WELL - with help from Hashem.

I think that some frum (religious) people, especially those who feel strongly about either beating the Yetzer Hara(evil inclination) themselves as a supreme kiddush Hashem (divine sanctification), or who feel that the answer must be in the Torah if they only look hard enough, may have a hard time with this approach. But I doubt they would use that approach with any other disease. For me, it was too confusing to mix mussar concepts with the 12 steps, particularly early on. It was toxic, actually.

Yes I know that lust - i.e. using and acting on lust, is not exactly like alcohol, as it involves aveiros chamuros(serious sins), while drinking alcohol is not an aveira per se. Nevertheless, hanging onto the purely religious approach would have left me as I was for twenty years: looking for the answers with broken eyeglasses.

The way I read them, the 12 steps are about getting my eyes (mind and body) fixed and THEN getting frumer (more religious), not about getting frumer in order to stop. In fact, I got very frum, but the frumer I got, the sicker turns my addiction took! I grew quite disgusted with myself along the way, to put it mildly.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying that any other approaches are wrong, I'm just sharing what worked for me. Even though the principles of the 12-Steps are Torah-based, AA, in my experience is a sanity-building tool, not a religious one.

First of all mazel Tov on your 300th post. keep them coming, (Pretty appropriate post for such a round number)
I can't figure out how to put this intro before the quote so I am putting it here. 

I was pretty blunt and brutal in my response to your list. I don't want you to get frustrated or disappointed while reading them, However I am sure that you know that I really am writing it for your benefit so please keep that in mind while you read. 

All in all you definitely have been making great progress, and are very dedicated. keep focusing on the right things and Hashem should help you learn to live life properly. 
A few things that were missing from the list:
Understanding what was making you go to the computer to watch streaming. What was making you want to test the filters, 
We once discussed several issues that were bothering you at this stage of life. Have you done things to deal with them and resolve them? Either through wholesome acceptance or through actual actions?
KUTGW!! and KOMT!!!

I'll add something from a CBT therapy session that I just had. What I struggle with now is that sometimes, especially if I am feeling low, what I will do is test the boundaries of my filter. I will actually not look off and even if I find something that comes through, which makes what I am doing even crazier.

I asked him how do I stop doing this? He said to me that people stop things that are very hard to stop when they find a reason that is compelling enough for them to really want to stop.

He told me that in Russia in the 1950s what they used to do to alcoholics was implant in them something that released enzymes that were toxic when they came into contact with alcohol. Then, they gave them a tiny dose of alcohol which made them violently sick and show them that if they take any alcohol they probably would die. He said they found 100% success rate.

I didn't google this to see if what he saying is true, but the pointy saying is that you have to really want to stop. Wanting to stop isn't enough necessarily, but if you don't really want to stop and don't have a real compelling reason then you probably won't.

Perhaps it's sort of like recognizing powerlessness or hitting rock-bottom, but do you really really really wanted to stop? Or would you just love to if you could but don't really need to at all costs? Many people if not most stop when they realize that they can't go on any longer the way they've been going on.

I am not saying yes or no, but I don't remember what you are super compelling reason that you just cannot go on any longer like this was.

Workingguy wrote on 18 Jan 2017 21:27:

I wonder if they were happy joyous and free, but I take your general point.

First of all, thank you!
I see that the underlying, deeper problem is not being fully addressed.
I'm still not sure HOW to do that, however.
I also still don't see how these 30 or so things are "going in the wrong direction, headed for a crash"
What have I actually implemented is a fair and good question.
Not enough, certainly. For instance, I've been avoiding and escaping all of the areas/problems/concerns we discussed, and have still done nothing about them.
It's a weekend job, when I will have several hours available, but then the weekend comes, and I avoid doing it. Not good, I know. Maybe this weekend I'll tackle them one by one.
Which of the tools have I implemented:
Tool 1 - STOP! (yes, quite committed)
Deciding to stop does not mean that we won’t ever fall again or that we’ll succeed in staying stopped forever on our first try. However, it does mean that we are committed to trying, by being open minded to internalizing the principles and tools discussed in this program which have helped hundreds, if not thousands, break free.
Tool 2: Attitude & Perspective (haven't worked on it enough)
Having the proper perspective and attitude on this struggle can make all the difference. Often people write to us saying that had they only known the proper perspective and attitude guidelines that we discuss on our network when they were younger, they would have never fallen into the addiction in the first place!
Tool 3: Guard Your Eyes (yes, working on it)
It is not for nothing that our network is called "Guard Your Eyes". The most obvious practical step to conquering lust addiction is learning to guard our eyes. This is the cornerstone of breaking free, and it's obvious why: We can't lust for that which we don't see!
Tool 4: Daily Chizuk (I figured the emails would just gather in my inbox, but maybe I'll try it)
To succeed in this struggle, it is important for us to get fresh perspective and Chizuk each day.  Chazal say that the Yetzer Hara renews his attack on us every day.  Our network provides daily Chizuk e-mails with antidotes, tips, articles, and quotes from our sages, therapists, and fellow strugglers, to help us break free of this addiction.
Tool 5: Alternative Fulfillment (yes, but need help finding a good alternative)
We frequently focus on breaking the addiction by avoiding triggers and running away from the Yetzer Hara. But often the best way to deal with an addiction is to remove the underlying "needs" that the addiction is trying to fill by proactively engaging in alternative fulfilling pursuits.
Tool 6: Physical Activity (yes)
When we talk about recovery and emotional health, our physical body is a critical factor in the equation. Getting enough sleep, good nutrition and especially exercise, add a whole lot more to our "spiritual centeredness and emotional well being" than most people give it credit for. As the Pasuk says, "Venishmartem Me'od Li’nafshoseichem -and you shall vigilantly guard your wellbeing".
Tool 7: Making Fences (yes)
The addiction is more powerful than us, and if we try to fight it head on we will almost always lose. Once we are standing at the edge of the cliff, we are very vulnerable to falling off of it. Instead, we must stay as far away from the edge of the cliff as possible. Therefore, one of the most powerful tools in this struggle is making good fences.
Tool 8: Cutting Down (yes)
If you've tried the steps above and you still find that the addiction is controlling you and causing frequent falls, it could be helpful to apply the battle-tactic of conquering and securing one territory at a time, instead of trying to conquer everything at once. The more we cut down, and the more distance we put between ourselves and the addiction, the easier it gets.
Tool 9: A Leap of Faith- The 90 Day Journey (yes)
If slowly cutting down doesn't seem to do the trick, we need to take a more drastic "Leap of Faith" and try to cut these behaviors out of our lives completely. There was a recent scientific study that found it takes 90 days to change the neuron pathways created by addictive behaviors in the brain. It was shown that if an addict refrains from their addictive behavior for 90 days, they will find it far easier to stop the addictive thought patterns.
Tool 10: Extra Strong Fences - TaPhSiC Method (couldn't figure out workable 1,2,3 components)
TaPHSiC stands for “The Physical & Spiritual Combo” Method.  This tool has worked well with many Frum addicts in helping them stop these destructive behaviors completely.  For most frum addicts this method has worked wonders, and it has freed many people from the obsession.
Tool 11: Accountability (yes)
If we haven't been successful yet with the tools above, it is time to bring the struggle to the next level and introduce others into the picture.  Our own strength has proved insufficient in dealing with our addiction. We need to start exploiting strength from outside ourselves to help us succeed.
Tool 12: Group Support (yes)
Since one of the most powerful tools for breaking addictions is getting out of isolation, we need to increase our interaction with others in the same situation as much as possible. If a single partner or sponsor still does not give us the strength we need to completely stop acting out, there is nothing more powerful than group support to help addicts break free from addictions.
Tool 13: Talk to the Experts (haven't called yet, but maybe worth a try)
If we are at a loss on how to continue our journey, or if we feel that all the steps we've taken until today still don't seem to do the trick for us, we can pick up the phone and call the GYE Expert Hotline to discuss our addiction with someone who understands us and can give us advice on how to proceed.
Tool 14: Helping Others (yes)
There is no better way to assure our own long term sobriety than to be in constant contact with the Guard Your Eyes community and to be helping others every day. Whether it is by being an accountability partner or sponsor for someone else who is struggling, or whether it is through posting on the forum, we are needed out there - and we need the others out there even more.
Tool 15: 12 Step Anonymous Phone Conferences (no, but may listen to Dovid Chaim's)
Most experts in addiction will tell you that the two most powerful methods in finding freedom from addiction are (1) Group Support: Get out of isolation and connect with others who are going through what you are - and succeeding! And (2) Work the world's most proven and powerful method of all time: the 12 Step program.
Tool 16: LIVE 12-Step Groups (no, don't think it would be good for me)
Because the 12 Steps are truly a life-changing set of principles, often they can be internalized properly only through joining a live face-to-face group. But by learning to give up our will in the group, and learning how to share honestly with the group and our sponsor, we are able to learn how to give up our will and be honest with Hashem as well.
Tool 17: Therapy (tried a while ago, not long-term, not specifically addiction therapist, but no money now)
Very often the addiction stems from underlying issues, such as a difficult childhood, low self-esteem, anxiety, depression and so on. We used the addiction as an escape mechanism to run away from emotional pain, or as an attempt to fill a void that we felt in our lives. An addiction therapist, preferably one who is trained in dealing with lust addiction, can help us explore the underlying causes of our addiction and discover where the root of our behaviors may stem from.

As far as as I understand the 17 tools you brought are ways to try to stop. Sometimes people are watching porn or masturbating for simpler reasons. Maybe because it feels good or they just got into a bad habit. 
By trying the different tools you can see where you are holding and what works for you. 
It seems pretty clearly to me that the main focus for you has to be on tools 2 and 5. Get those down and everything will probably work out for you. Ignore those two and you won't  be getting anywhere real. 

It is an amazing step that you say that you finally see that the deeper problem is not being fully addressed. 
Of course how to do that is very difficult for anyone but you to figure out. Based on our conversations i would suggest that strengthening yourself in emuna and bitachon might help a bit. By learning sefarim like chovos halevovos- shaar habetachon we can learn how to properly deal with what is coming our way and look at things from a more calm and accepting view point. (I am not looking to get into the big mussar helping or not helping debate in general. Here i am offering tailor made advice to a specific person in a specific situation., Also I don't mean this in terms of learning mussar but rather as a way of changing perspective on life.) 
Perhaps also reading (Lehavdil) the 7 habits of highly effective people by stephen Covey. Particularly the first habits where he discussed taking control of our reactions to the things that come at us. 
i have some other ideas but those are good starters. 

As far as the car moshol. I didn't remember exactly the way Watson was using it, but to me the nimshal was driving the right direction, just on the wrong side of the road. Yes, you are headed the right way but it is easier to get there if you are driving on the proper side of the road where everyone is going in that same direction as opposed to having to avoid the many cars coming at you in the opposite direction. 
Yes those thirty things might be slowly moving you in the right direction but you are still destined to crash and fall because you are focusing on avoiding the cars. If you just switch lanes to the other side of the highway, the one that everyone else decided to travel on, you can just focus on driving forward. A lot easier ulitmately. 

The daily chizuk emails are a big help. I look forward to them every day. Also Dov's daily call is educational and very inspirational. Definitely talk to the experts. They truly care. They have "been there and done that". Hatzlocha! Your success is our success! Stay with us brother.

It really happened and probably still does, but the Russians are mainly using the placebo effect.
Here is a scholarly article on it:
E. Raikhel (Department of Comparative Human Development, University of Chicago, 5730 South Woodlawn Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, USAe-mail: eugene.raikhel@mail.mcgill.ca123Cult Med Psychiatry (2010)ORIGINAL PAPERPost-Soviet Placebos: Epistemology and Authority in Russian Treatments for AlcoholismEugene RaikhelPublished online: 5 December 2009Springer Science+Business Media, LLC 2009AbstractThe dominant modalities of treatment for alcoholism in Russia are suggestion-based methods developed by narcology—the subspecialty of Russian psychiatry which deals with addiction. A particularly popular method is the use of disulfiram—an alcohol antagonist—for which narcologists commonly substitute neutral substances. Drawing on 14 months of fieldwork at narcological clinics inSt. Petersburg, this article examines the epistemological and institutional conditions which facilitate this practice of ‘‘placebo therapy.’’ I argue that narcologists’embrace of such treatments has been shaped by a clinical style of reasoning specificto a Soviet and post-Soviet psychiatry, itself the product of contested Soviet politics over the knowledge of the mind and brain. This style of reasoning has facilitated narcologists’ understanding of disulfiram as a behavioral, rather than a pharmaco-logical, treatment and has disposed them to amplify patients’ responses through attention to the performative aspects of the clinical encounter and through management of the treatment’s broader reputation as an effective therapy. Moreover, such therapies have generally depended upon, and helped to reinforce, clinical encounters premised on a steeply hierarchical physician–patient relationship.IntroductionDuring Russia’s period of intense social ferment over the 1990s and early 2000s, rates of alcohol dependence and alcohol-related harm increased substantially, at the same time that mortality rose sharply and male life expectancy dropped precipitously (Leon et al.1997,2007; Nemtsov2002; Notzon et al.1998). While the precise mechanisms have been widely debated, epidemiologists and public health researchers generally agree that alcohol consumption, abuse and dependence contributed greatly to these alarming health outcomes (Demin and Demina1998;Cockerham2000; Field and Twigg2000; Dmitrieva et al.2002). What is more, while these epidemiological changes were taking place, the Russian state was withdrawing from the interventionist public health role which the Soviet Union had played in governing alcohol and its consumption.
1 One effect of this withdrawal was to render alcoholism, previously treated as a social disease, increasingly individualized and medicalized by default. Thus even while biomedical explanations of heavy alcohol consumption remain unpopular among many laypeople in Russia, medical (and quasi-medical) treatments have gained significance as the primary means by which alcoholism is governed.
2 A particularly popular and prevalent mode of treatment is the use of injected or implanted depot disulfiram—an alcohol antagonist—which narcologists (as specialists in addiction medicine are known in Russia) commonly substitute with chemically neutral substances. While narcologists represent this therapy to patients as khimzashchita (which literally translates as ‘‘chemical protection’’)—a potent pharmacological treatment which renders their bodies unable to process alcohol—privately they often describe the method as ‘‘placebo therapy’’ and emphasize its reliance on mechanisms of suggestion (vnushenie ). Such clinical techniques have been used in Russia since the 1950s, and according to some sources, khimzashchita and closely related methods currently make up the majority of long-term interventions for alcoholism offered by narcologists (Ivanets2001; Sofronov2003; Mendelevich2005).
3 Such therapies are also highly contested in Russia: condemned on a variety of clinical, ethical, and political grounds. They are criticized by proponents of TwelveStep therapies for ignoring the underlying emotional and spiritual roots of alcoholism and by advocates of harm reduction for being falsely represented as‘‘cures’’ for a chronic disease (Mendelevich2005). Even many clinicians who administer khimzashchita point out that, while it is often successful in facilitating short-term remissions, patients rarely see the need to supplement it with longer-term psychosocial interventions—leading to a cycle of decreasingly successful and increasingly short remissions (Valentik 2001, p. 244; Sofronov2003). Not surprisingly critiques made by visiting Western European and North American physicians have often focused on the disregard which such treatments seem to show for a normative model of patient autonomy; instead of treating patients as autonomous, rational and (potentially) self-knowing individuals, these methods are said to rely on ‘‘people’s ignorance’’ and their ‘‘belief’’ to frighten them into sobriety (Fleming et al.1994; Finn2005; Parfitt2006). According to such accounts, the mechanism underlying khimzashchitais very simple; it consists of the physician convincingly telling his patient, ‘‘If you drink—you die’’ (Chepurnaya and Etkind2006, par. 2).In this article, I draw on historical and ethnographic research to examine why, despite such critiques,khimzashchita remains a popular form of treatment among physicians and patients in contemporary Russia. In particular, I trace how disulfiramtreatment in Russia has been shaped by a clinical style of reasoning specific to a Soviet and post-Soviet professional ethnopsychiatry, itself the product of contested Soviet intellectual and institutional politics over the knowledge of the mind and brain.
4. I argue that this style of reasoning has facilitated narcologists’ understanding of disulfiram as a behavioral, rather than a pharmacological, treatment and has disposed them to amplify patients’ responses through attention to the performative aspects of the clinical encounter as well as through management of khimzashchita’s broader reputation as an effective therapy. Moreover, I suggest that, with a few exceptions, such therapies have depended on, and helped to reinforce, clinical encounters premised on a steeply hierarchical physician–patient relationship.Over the past two decades medical anthropologists have increasingly drawn attention to the circulation and meaning of medicines, and their articulation with various lay and professional models of causation, idioms of distress, healing systems and local understandings of efficacy, as well as their place in global political economies of health (van der Geest and Whyte1988; Etkin1992; Whyteet al.2002; Petryna et al.2006). This focus on medicines has been particularlysignificant for scholars who have traced how the biologization of psychiatry has—along with the neoliberal transformation of health care in many countries—facilitated a growing emphasis on pharmaceutical interventions for mental illnesses(Healy1997; Shorter1998; Luhrmann2000; Biehl2004; Lakoff 2006;Rose2007).While alcoholism and addiction have resisted subsumption under the aegis of biomedicine or psychiatry for much longer—at least in the English-speaking world(Valverde1998)—over recent years there has been great excitement in some quarters of the medical community about pharmacological treatments for addiction,including drugs which dampen the neurochemical effects of opiates or alcohol and those which reduce sensations of craving (Valverde2003; O’Brien2005; Lovell2006; Vrecko2006b)

I totally agree with you that I need to focus and work on #2 and #5.
I will read up on #2; can you help me with #5?
As I mentioned, I need help finding a good alternative.
The moshel is now clear. The nimshal, not yet.

What I meant with the moshul was that the guy would do well to listen to the other drivers, and not try to figure out which side to drive on all by himself.

On this journey trying to understand is a liability. Not helpful at all.

Just find someone you trust and do whatever he tells you to do, without needing to fully understand it first. Doing it all your own way, on your own terms, is causing you problems.

Watson wrote on 18 Jan 2017 21:42:


On one hand, I strongly doubt it. But on the other hand, you never know because maybe once they knew they would never do it again, they just let it go

Yosef Tikun HaYesod wrote on 18 Jan 2017 20:31:

Green are positive steps
Red are white-knuckling

l'aniyus da'asi

Doesn't mean that red stuff don't have a place. I redded out all TaPHSiC shvua stuff, yet I do it myself.
I think the more one grows positively, the less white-knuckling the preventative steps become. If I'm throttling down to a crash, then even the strongest nets may not be able to help me. If I'm climbing higher, then lighter and lighter nets will be strong enough, were I to slip and fall. Sure you can be machmir and have your bulletproof shields, but I feel you'll get to a point where you won't have to harp on it as much.

I love you, o brother. Please don't take offence to my suggestions.

This week starts Shovavim, which is special for doing teshuva and being mitakane the pagam habris.
I'm taking it seriously this year with real actions (bli neder):
learn more Torah, say the long Arizal version of krias Shema al hamita, and fast at least once.
Now's the time. I'm ready to change and grow and fix up this mess I've gotten into.
I appreciate those who are really trying to help me. I definitely need all the help I can get.
Just like I've written concrete things I've tried, if you can give me concrete, well-defined things I can actually do that will help me, then I will do them (again, bli neder). 

Read Chovos HaLevavos Shar Bitachon I can do.
It's heavy and slow reading, especially if I read it with an eye
to incorporate and apply the lessons, but I can do it.
Read the attitudes and perspectives 21 or 30 principles,
and really think about it and try to incorporate the lessons, I can do.
Get daily chizuk emails and read them the same way, I can do.

But, introspect and figure out underlying reasons why I feel the need to escape and self-soothe,
and then figure out how to meet those needs with some other fulfilling (but not destructive) activities,
sounds nice, but I don't know how to do it...so it gets filed away under "nice idea in theory" but I can't act on it.
Will you help me?

The problem is you don't yet have reasons.
You say yourself this is less of an addiction problem.
The truth is that thanks to UNA and a couple of other guys in this thread, the solution has been so eloquently laid down for all of us here, that it's actually a little mind-blowing.
Maybe you just need some substantiation and to intellectualize and internalize the reasons.
But if you don't have any reasons then what can you do.
I see you seem to have reasons to take shovavim seriously.
Those are most likely from lessons you learnt all your life from the Torah.
But this is an emotional thing.
I see you are good at lists.
Why don't you try this for an exercise.
Sit and make a comprehensive list of all the reasons why you shouldnt stream and masturbate.
I know you are good at comprehensive.
Your intellectual prowess will also serve to give everyone in this forum a really good long list of reasons to add to their own if you decide to share it, but this is ultimately for you....
Throw them all in, the emotional, the religious, the personal, the familial.
Then we can see what we can do to internalize all those reasons, and how to keep that list close to your chest when the streaming monster comes knocking.

Nobody stopped acting out until they had enough reasons to do it.