Reb  Nachman writes, when things are just to much close your eyes and mouth and Reach 'bitul'!
So i tried hypnotherapy today, i downloaded a hypnotherapy audio book on overcoming addictions, tried it today for the first time, il let you guys know as i go on.

day 1.
Ok. today is actually the second day iv been doing this hypnotherapy thing, and do i see any difference? Its hard to say really, the thing is my visualizations that i have during the session seem to be with me all day so thats good, the prob is im dying to 'test' myself to see if it really has worked and we all know what that means!
Another thing that i found was audiobooks by kevin b skinner on p*** addiction, they seem quite intresting and this test http://www.growthclimate.com/profile.i?cmd=select&t=apa anyone seen this?
ok bye for now

just fell!
I guess its a test on my resolve, dunno. i know i have to keep up the work its helping even though there is relapses

Just to clear the air, I need to spew the following:

My 1st step is levite]well im a very charismatic person and actually help a lot of people who are going through issues in their life, i8v changed my life in so many ways and when it comes to this issue im useless![/quote]

my 2nd step [b][i]is [/i][/b][quote= wrote:


My Step 3 is [quote="levite]Reb  Nachman writes, when things are just to much close your eyes and mouth and Reach 'bitul'![/quote]

...and hypnosis is [i]less [/i]like "medicine for an ill man" than these steps?

I am [b]not [/b]suggesting to quit the hypnosis, just asking: what part of "saying it is an sickness" is strange to you?

All my steps tell me is that if I find I am "useless" when it comes to this problem, it probably means that I do not possess the power to stop (I'm powerless); and that if I really want a way out of this impossible bind I probably need a Power greater than I am...simple enough. And that if I am to use that Power's help, I probably can't just use Him when I need Him, but that I probably will need to at least put Him in charge of things, for a change - rather than try to deserve His help by being "good". The point is that He is really in charge and hence all will be OK, not that I direct how that is to be done and under what conditions. He takes care of me. All I need to do is bring myself to Him and honestly say, "I'm trying to be yours. Please help me."

Now, I have tried to skip to #3, because Yiddishkeit tells us to do just that...really it doesn't, but that's what we hear, cuz it's the easy way to the top. We revel in stuff like, "b'makon sh'baalei t'shuvah omdim..." etc...

But that is not where the action is. The action is in giving myself to Hashem right now and accepting His help calmly and trying to do His Will right now - not in being in the true driver's seat and being the one who determines exactly what that Will is. Even if I lust, or whatever, I expect nothing in return except that He help me live as His agent today - even if that means lusting, dying, or whatever. Give it all to Him and keep giving it all to Him, for no payment whatsoever.

No backsies.

hi dov and thanx for replying, i read and re-read your post because as usually it was very deep and asked me alot of subtle questions that even i hadnt quite thought of, basicly a post worthy of you dov!
I spent a bit off time thinking whats my aversion to the 12 steps, i use aversion because i dont see any other word to use, for i agree 100% with every single idea thats associated with aa, but.... i guess my problem is 1. AA is an all encompassing shitah that takes over your life, and expects you to live with it all day all the time, i find that idea uncomfortable seeing that  i try and live my life encompassed by a diiferent shitah, wich is why hypnotherapy being a local anaesthetic works better for me.
2. One of the basics of AA is group work and im not ready for that kind of openess bth from the ruchnius-dige side and also from the plain meaning, many tzaddikim believed that these issues musnt be spoken about for they can pull the other down, (i heard this from harav schechter himself).
3. I guess i have the feeling that on aa it means ill allways be on 'medication' while i want to be over it, as in hypnotherapy once the programming becomes deeply etched you are over it. I used to be addited to nicotine i am no longer full stop its a has been.


Ok in other news friday and motzai shabbos tried to do the h.therapy just fell asleep. today i did it, i remebered to put the no testing idea in the programming, i feel more stable and feel as if im getting somewhere with this, but we will have to wait and see. the kevin skinner audiobook is very enlightenig too, and a must for any seripous gue follower, really good

Dear Levite,

Thanks for your response. All I can say is that I see things very differently than you describe them here. I would love to have a chance to describe what I have  experienced to Rav Schechter...can you get me in touch with him?

Hatzlocha with the hypnosis, and just want to tell you that I get the distinct feeling from what you write that you are on the right track for you. You know yourself pretty well and are obviously 'pulling out all the stops' to get the job done and get clean. Ashrecha that this is a priority for you!

To be brutally honest with you, would there have been any other path I could have taken other than the 12 step path, I would have taken it! And I did! It was just that it was clear to me that I had exhausted everything else. I was already a frum guy and that had obviously not worked...what, does it only start to 'work' once you become a tzaddik?! What kind of religion is that? And other people saying stuff like, "well, then you didn't try it hard enough!" was not very helpful to me. I was sure that the RMCH"L or Reb Yisroel could have "fixed me"...but they were both gone, of course. And Mesilas Yeshorim was not working! It just was not: I wasn't clean, was I?

Reading what you wrote reminded me that the most basic thing that AA really gave me was the acceptance that what was 'not working' was not "Mesillas Yeshorim", Hashem, or anything else - it was me . I was broken and needed fixing and obviously could not do that myself. I had been trying for 20 years. And it showed me how to go about that in a way that worked for me.

But you are definitely spot-on when you point out that it requires a group experience, that the self-honesty and Recovery are all-encompassing, and that the self-honesty, the work with other drunks, and the recovery, are medicines I will apparently need to keep taking till the very day I die. It just happens that I love that idea. I want my recovery - which to me means my personal honesty with no one else but my very own G-d, Himself - to be the very last thought I have on this earth. Him and me - and no one else, no thing else - nothing - in-between.

For me, my Recovery is the tube that all my Torah runs through. The clearer my recovery gets, the more clear and unobstructed my Torah will be, for myself and for others. May Hashem Give me more and more of His Torah to make mine - my chelek of it, going through me into this world.

That is the way it does seem to me, though I could experiment otherwise at any time and I recommend experimentation with a full-heart to anyone who asks me. Just say "No" to finger-wagging and dogmatism, I say!

So - Alei v'hatzlach, Habibi!!

levite wrote on 04 Aug 2010 21:17:


Did you listen to yourself?  You, as Reb Nacham suggests, are trying to reach 'bitul.'

So, you're using hypnotherapy, which you describe as a local anastethia (sp?) (which, to me, sounds nothing close to 'bitul').

And, you're avoiding the 12 steps because they are all-encompassing (which, to me, sounds a lot like 'bitul').

Yo, easy amigo. The 12 steps are not the only medicine out there, and may not work at all for the Levite, here.

thank's Dov your post gave me alot of chizuk and motivation to carry on my way of doing it for as you say we each have our own way, and for eye's comment, there is 2 things id like to say 1. Reb Nachman speaks about reaching a bitul what he means is the blissful nothingness in the meditation sense 2. As dov says You found your groove stick to it and i respect you for that, but as they say live and let live.
OK back to you Reb Dov, Rav Schechter quoted from tzadikim, but personally i think that there is a nekudah of truth and a danger of being to frank about these issues especially with someone who hasn't been desensitized, or someone who is try-sexual as some of us are here, i have seen someone else here write that he doesn't like to come to the forum for this reason. I can see by me, i speak to alot of at-risk-teens who have relationships etc.. and even after i know that these r.ships are ruing their lives and that they are stupid etc. etc. it still gets me going inasmuch that i made a deal that they don't talk about their negative issues with me.
I think we agree on the rest of the issue with just taking the time of explaining aa to all of us, but as you say aa is all encompassing and because i have a different all encompassing shitah that works for me, its not doing it for me.
Ok today i did my session again i added the bits that i have been finding hard to get over but i feel kinda liberated as if there finally is a possibility of getting through this iyh, On the kevin skinner audiobook i heard something that really got me he explains that when we entertain the idea of looking at p, 90% of the war is lost for the addiction is feeding of the chemicals the brain has started flooding the system with and once we are flooded........... what do we expect?

dov wrote on 09 Aug 2010 18:27:


Okay, thanks for that Dov.

Sorry Levite for being too gung-ho about the 12 steps, and for being so intolerant of you and your other methods.

I'm really confused, though.  You have said in the past that part of your aversion to the 12 steps is because you're not convinced it shtims with Torah.  But, I'm probably wrong on this, but it seems to me that Rebbi Nachman's words are quite open to free interpretation (we can't really go and ASK HIM what he really mean now, can we?).  So, to me it seems a bit arbitrary to decide that hypnotherapy is sanctioned by the Torah while the 12 steps aren't (even though some big-name Rabbanim have given their haskamas to it).

That's something I'm really confused about and would love to understand.  Maybe I never will, though.  Or maybe I'm just biased.

Besides that, if you're finding a way to recovery through hypnotherapy, that's great for you.

Frankly, I don't even know what hypnotherapy is.  I guess I have an aversion to it because it sounds kinda' fad-dish.  I went to a school function years ago where part of the "fun" was a hypnotists who hypnotized some fellow classmate volunteers to stop smoking.  On stage they displayed immediate repulsion to cigarettes, but I think it wasn't long before they were back to smoking.

So, with my limited experience, anything involving hypnosis sounds like it's supposed to be a get-well-quick method.  Which, to me, sounds about as reliable as any get-rich-quick methods.  So, the problem here could just be my own ignorance.

If you don't mind, maybe you could explain it.  It would help me to appreciate it, (and might even make it as another chizzuk e-mail to help others find a new path to recovery).

  --Eye.

 
 

Ther e is an essential difference between the twelve steps and many other kinds of tharpeutic methods out there, inasmuch that the other methods dont take over your life, your way of thinking etc etc.

For me that has a specific way of life, thinking philosophy in place, a way of life that I do beleive in, A way of life taht means everything i cannot go against it for i will be pulling the carpet from under my feet and lose the very ideals that make me, me.


Hypnotherapy is an idea that makes perfect sense to an open minded critic! The human brain is wired in a way that it learns by experience i.e when i was thirteen i find out about m******* and found out that it gives me a high, and a place of refuge, and no matter how much i tried to fight the brains wiring was all set that this is the way to get a hit.
Now imagine if at the first time i m*** i would have been racked with pain it probably would have been the last time i did it, Lets go further how about if i can alter my memory and 'hack' into my memory and add the pain, so taht now when i recall the incident it will repel me, seem interesting?
This is not what i am doing, but what i am doing is going back to the sub-conscious by means of meditation etc and fixing those patches of hurt that got me to that situation to start with, adding the factual regret and pain that it caused me afterwards, so that when recalling m*** i get the full picture instead of some romanticised thrill dream that stored by us addicts, I empower myself and tell myself that i can go through with this.
If you dont understand any of this please ask and il explain, Its doing wonders for me, i feel motivated and concentrated my yiddishkeit is upbeat and boruch hashem even day to day triggers are plain sailing.

I recived this from An Anoymous well wisher  (no, not eye )
Now imagine if at the first time i m*** i would have been racked with pain it probably would have been the last time i did it
[/quote]
The first time that a woman is with her husband it is VERY painful........

Most ppl do not enjoy their 1st cigarette......
[/quote]

The truth is i dont need to answer this, you are asking a self-answering question. most people start to smoke even if it is hard because they are addicted to peer pressure.

With the woman there is other emotional reasons that overide the pain but this is not really nogiah to the issue.
for more info on hypnotherapy uses
www.hypnosisaudio.com/files/media_reviews/audio/radio2-stevewright-june2010.mp3

day 13

The honest truth is i don't know what to post!
Results= Unbelievable i don't recognize myself its as if im taking anti-testosterone pills, i feel healthy and strong, i pass so many triggers in day to day life and they don't touch me!
Boruch hashem its great so far i still feel vulnerable and i do the therapy daily (besides Shabbos and Friday) i really do feel different its just that the change is so hard to explain.

Perhaps you can use this time to connect more strongly with how good it feels to be clean. How right it feels to just walk past those triggers. Focus on how much pleasure all this gives you. n how much this is the life that you want for yourself.

Thanks Levite. Back to Rav Schechter, please. I really would like you to help me get in touch with him. It has been my experience that all the shmuess'n are fine, but when real guys are having real problems, the rav's out there meet two kinds of guys:

One kind (the majority, I guess) have discovered that they have a YH. As much as they hate the idea of doing an aveiro, they love the way schmutz (and acting on it) makes them feel and they do not have a clue how to fight it. That is not necessarily addiction, at all. And it doesn't matter how bad the stuff they have done was. That's irrelevant.

Another kind of guy (the minority, I believe) is taken in by lust and it is messing up his. He still uses it regularly and it is obvious that he has no power to stop. They have a double life and know it, and as much as they cannot stop, they cannot keep using it. They are really stuck.

The second group goes to the rav, gets an eitzo based on tzadikkim, the rav's own experience, or whatever, and then tries it. It fails completely. He is ashamed and eventually returns, maybe to a different rav, maybe to a shrink. It still doesn't work. He is eventually going out of his mind, which is still working on trying to figure this thing out - cuz he is mostly really smart, but suddenly really stupid when it comes to lust. It's plain embarrassing.

If he sticks with the same rav, eventually the rav shrugs his shoulders and just says, "nu, this kid really has 'problems', and I just don't get it." And he might come up with some well-meaning theory as to why this particular bochur fails repeatedly (and always worse, to the rav and talmid's shock), no matter how well he seems to understand the rav's eitzos - eitzos which work for others just fine!

The fellows that the ravs shrug their shoulders over are for 12-steps. I meet them often and see many get sober.

I still feel good about your path and this has nothing to do with the work you are doing. I just wanted to explain why I like talking with ravs, that's it.

Whatever, thanks for letting me share!