Dear JJ,
sorry to hear about your fall. We've all been there. Good for you for getting up right away with a fighting attitude.
Something I noticed, that I'd like to share with you (a free benefit of publicly journaling your progress here).
You posted how worried you were about staying a week clean when you are home alone, and many people advised you not to think that far ahead, and take it one day at a time, and only commit to staying sober today etc.
So then you post this:
jewish wrote on 12 Jun 2012 07:32:

....and then you report a fall, and in the same breath you say again:

jewish wrote on 12 Jun 2012 07:24:

Brother, we are not being cute with you about one day at a time thing.
You're setting yourself up for failure if start thinking about a year ahead. You may never get to be one year clean, and I may never get to be one year clean, and even Dov SHlita may never celebrate 16 year clean anniversary. And the same goes for one week.
We can only be sure of today, and even that will only materialize if we pray, and post on the forum, and do other proactive things to protect our sobriety today.
Have you read the Attitude Handbook yet?
Hatzlocho staying sober today,
Mottel

Apparently someone thought that I was joking when I wrote that you cannot go to the bathroom today for tomorrow, no matter how hard you push.

I am serious now: the next time you are on the toilet, try to push really really hard and see if you can get tomorrows stuff out, so maybe it will save time for you tomorrow. You may be really, really busy tomorrow. Who knows?

I am 100% serious.

Planning is nice, but not worth very much. Doing is the only thing that matters, really. Sharing your hopes is nice, too. But you will not belefit an iota from all that - unless you do the stuff.

Correct me if I am wrong:

You have always planned and planned, and planned. So many of us know the mussar va'adim and takanos. They are great! But really almost worthless for us. The only lanugage our bodies understand is action. And - addict or not - until we ar ready to admit that at least some of our problem is just plain bodily/habitual, and not intellectual...we will not stop intellectualizing and planning, and waste time 'trying to figure it all out'.

Chuck C. (a great recovering drunk) used to say, "We can't think ourselves into right living. We can only live ourselves into right thinking."

So drop your burden! Hashem's plan for you is so much easier than you make it sound. He loves you so much and will help every step of the way. But even G-d cannot help you stay sober the rest of this week - because it's not even tomorrow, yet.

Hatzlocha!!

Mottel and Dov, true, I agree with what you wrote and that concept of one day at a time is the right attitude. But can I know what gives you the push to stay clean if you do it only for today?? You must clearly have in the back of your mind the רצון to stay clean for long periods, I don't think you do it only because today you want to be clean.

Secondly I have this very wrong and bad concept, that if I am not clean, I am distanced from Hashem for a while until I am clean enough again. In other words it has to do with my feeling and not really what Hashem does/feels. So I have to see the future (look ahead) of me being clean as so to feel closer to him again. (I have felt this crazy closeness when I had long, long streaks as a bochur but now days I can only dream of it). The reason above and my conscious are the only things right now pushing me to stay clean. maybe tell me what is pushing you.

I hope you understand JJ (and reply)

It's not a contradiction.
I am committed to remain sober for the rest of my life. The way I'm going to do it (and it's been working for the past 3 years) is to take it one day at a time, one nisayon at a time, one right decision at a time. This way it's broken up into bite-sized pieces I can deal with.

My motivation was that giving in to lust all the time was misery. My mind no longer belonged to me. I was a slave to lust.

My motivation now is that those first few months of breaking free were murder, and I'm just never going through that withdrawal again.

With you for the long haul,

Alex

jewish wrote on 12 Jun 2012 18:01:


You are not hearing this. There is no such thing as staying clean for long periods of time. It is your imagination. A fantasy. A lust - just like porn use is a lust. Same thing.

How can I be more clear than this?

The only reason I am clean for the past 15 years is because I was clean today on each of those days. That is the only reason. I never, ever thought of being clean for 5, 10 or 15 years, ever.

One caveat: I did think of dying clean. That I did think, and still do today. But all that means is that I may die today, you may die today, too. So I have thought at times, let me stay sober this minute, cuz if I don't - and die today - it'd be a real pity for me to die a drunk.

But that is still for just one day.

What is unclear, here?




You are describing lust. Religious lust. It is just as poisonous for an addict like me as porn or sex lust. Maybe it is wonderful for you, but I have come to see that it makes me silly, selfish, and scared.

The yo-yo of "take me back!!" and the tremendous feeling of closeness and connectedness with Hashem when we are scratching and fighting our way 'back' to Him after lusting and masturbating our brains out for a while, is exhilirating. And sick.

It's as sick as we would view any abusive marriage where there is terrific sexuality going on - between weekly hateful beatings. This is common in abusive relationships. Even in some parenting relationships - abuse followed by extra closeness and forgiving, presents, baseball games, real love - and finally more abuse...

That is not Teshuvah. Yes, it's a high, and yes it's religious. But it is not Yiddishkeit. It is a personal invention using religious and Torah concepts and neshoma-dikeh faculties we posses. But it leads nowhere good.

Until I came to see that and was ready to let go of the highs and deveikus - for the sake of accepting a calm, but real relationship with G-d - the cycle you describe persisted.

The truth obviously is that Hashem loves you to pieces while you are on your knees in the bathroom masturbating yourself to the porn goddess you are worshipping. We do worship them, that's why they have all that incredible power - we give it to them. And He does love us and care for us....that's why many people get sober, clean, whatever you want to call it. He starts to arrangements that draw us into our recovery while we are having sex with ourselves. He makes it drive us crazy - so that we will desperately want help. He makes our lives (as the fakers we are) a misery - so miserable that we will finally be driven to accept the help that we really need.

It's the tochacho. And it is all His love.

Does this make sense to you, chaver?

If not, fine. But if it does, then what are you ready to do about it - not tomorrow or this week - but today?

I didn't want to mention death, but since it's been brought up: that's exactly what I wanted to write:
"I may never be one year clean, 'cause I may die tomorrow". So what's the use worrying about such long periods? Just get through today.
Also, Jewish books (the real ones, like Gemoro and Rambam) say that tshuvo is accomplished b'rego chodo, in one instance. The moment you have a Tshuvo thought, you have done tshuvo. So no reason to wait to become clean again in the future.
Anyways, Dov and Alex elaborated enough on this, I think. What do YOU think?
M.

The above chevra said what needs saying, but I had one nekuda to add...
I remember feeling like you. When I fell, I felt so dirty that I couldn't even daven.
But, you know what? After (finally) starting to absorb what these people are saying, I no longer feel that way. I ask for one day- bingo! Hashem asks for one day. He doesn't ask for anything more than my ability (and He knows what that is), and therefore he can't want anything from me tomorrow! I can't do anything tomorrow!
The guide (I think) says if a person can't daven wholeheartedly with his sword dripping blood from having killed someone, he has not experienced chasidus, or something along those lines.
I'm not there yet, but I get up much quicker now than when I used to.
B'Ahava,
Meir

Sorry for not replying I was busy the past two days.

I agree that one day at a time is the ideal way (you are focused on today and there are no let backs on a fall), but I think that most people won't be able to go on with such a one day feeling and that is why we look for the long run.

Halevai there would be a way I would be able to change my mind set, but for the time being it hasn't happened so I will take AlexEliezers approach and combine the two ways to make one.

JJ

hi friend

let me give you a small piece of my mind
i did not introduce myself, nor did i read your posts
its the name and title: Jewish Jew, trying to be a Jewish Jew for at least 90 days!
this motto triggered my reply
you HAVE TO change you way of thinking

the acting out through addiction is NOT a matter of being jewish or not
its not a matter of being good or not
its not a matter of being in control of not
you are anyways Jewish, anyway good, and anyway NOT in control
its a matter of being sick, insane, or in a nicer language allergic
if you understand what i am saying you will have less heart ache, and more results
the interesting paradox, the more you surrender the more you are sober

sorry for being rude
but it's this misunderstanding that kept me drunk, and i never had 100 days like i am today
so Please i beg you.
stop with the Yetzer Hora vs Yetzer Tov concept
stop with the Jewish vs Goyish Language
stop with the Evil vs Good attitude.

and recognize that it's a sickness, disease, allergy etc.
and you will be a Jewish Jew for the rest of your life
have a great 24
IF, Isaac

כל מילה בסלע I do HAVE to change my way of thinking but it takes time.
My header is wrong for one reason and that is not the reason that you wrote. I am not a person who has Goyim Yidden problem.
The header is wrong because it should be "trying to be a Jewish Jew for one day at a time".
But the other things you wrote are 100% true.
JJ

Just to help along in changing your thinking, here are a couple of slogans:
Time takes time.
Go with the 24 hour plan.
One day at a time.
And my favorite:
Have a great day, unless, of course, you made other plans.

Mottel what a life saver!
I had a whopping fall with the same old computer I wrote about before. I love watching on YouTube two types of sport and only my old computer has YT so when I open the computer for sport ("good" intentions) I can access porn etc. (albeit through hard work).
What a fall it was, I masturbated three times in row!! Afterwards I was so angry that I didn't get rid of the computer a few days ago like I wanted to (home alone I predicted it would happen), I went, took a spanner and broke the thing to pieces

And here I come and Mottel has a few good words for me to pick myself up and back to the fight of surrendering. Right now the only thing that can help me for sure is not looking ahead, looking ahead will make me upset because I lately cant even string together a few days let alone look ahead so one day at a time!!

love yah Mottel, JJ

I like plagiarizing... 8)
Sorry, Reb Mottel. BTW, this sign works even for non-GYE chevra.

Hashem I surrender just let me get over tonight!!

I am starting to feel itchy and starting to search gray content. I am here now to keep myself busy with the good stuff on this forum and to stop looking for things on the border of porn.

Hashem just for tonight take away my urges I surrender all of them to you!!

JJ

Hey, how's it going with you, Reb Yid?