I don't know if Reb Dov disagrees with me, you should ask him. (It could be that he's michalek between addict [by his definition]and non-addict. )

I've been following the Battleworn vs. Dov discussions and I believe they're not really arguing, the difference is all semantics.  If you treat human beings like a flow chart and label each box on the chart and clearly define each label, and then say that box X leads to boxes Y or Z but box A leads to B or C then you’re stuck.  There’s no way for X to lead to B or C.  Then the “right answer” depends on how you answer the questions for the individual (just follow the chart) – is he a “loser at lust” or can he “work on himself”, should we/can we learn from Roman Catholics or not, etc, etc.  At the risk of oversimplifying (I do not mean to negate the whole discussion, just the idea that it’s one or the other) I don’t subscribe to the flow chart theory and don’t think it’s healthy or helpful to try and assign specific labels to people and then say, because you’re in THIS boat, you should try THAT.  The key is to figure yourself out and do what works for you.  Battleworn and Dov did, and that’s why they have so much to say.  There’s no shortcut, we all need to do the same and hope we can one day understand ourselves the way they understand themselves (or even a fraction of that).

As far as the question of whether to lower your expectations or just ease the pressure, I don’t think you have to worry.  You (and me) spent far too long thinking it’s all or nothing.  It’s not.  It doesn’t mean you’ll become simple and satisfied with a simple life – that part is hard wired, your strengths and talents are part of your makeup and your neshama will guide you to its own fulfillment.  We need to find the balance between self confidence and accurate self assessment (I’m doing a good job, making progress, I’m on the right track, I have a lot of strengths) and recognizing that there’s an limitless amount yet to be done and our work is never finished.  I believe in our case (and have heard this applied to the entire generation), the scales have tipped too far in the direction of “I haven’t even scratched the surface!” and therefore we need to spend more time recognizing our own achievements so that we end up right in the middle, with the correct balance.

I’ll leave the monetary question to you and others with more practical experience in your situation than I have as I’ve been in the working world for a long time already. 

This is so true. But there's nothing in the world more satisfying! This is what I posted a few months ago during a discussion over here : rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=430.90

I've decided to continue my own thread, though I'm part of group 3 - successfully.

I'm not sure really were to go from here. On day 16, but I came close to falling today.

The fundamental question in my mind still needs an answer; why not lust? I don't mean act out, I mean why not desire someone who is not your wife? Whatever it is - she's prettier, happier, younger - or even not so, and she is desirable - what is the rationale - and not "it's assur" - we all know it's forbidden; I'm talking on a deeper level then that - why is it not tov? Does it just mean I'm unhappy in my marriage - does this question fall away in a successful marriage? Now, of course, I understand from a practical standpoint; lusting leads to tension etc.

But does the Torah just want us to be like the farmer who never knew of white bread - so what, he can't have it. But it's there - doesn't it make sense to want it? Why should we look away - it is pleasant to look at her - whoever HER is.

kanesher wrote on 29 Sep 2009 16:10:


I guess the way I think of it is as follows:

A person thinks that he can lust after a certain woman and it will add “tov” or pleasure to his life...it’s a no lose situation...you have your life, which is limited in its “tov” to a certain level...the person wants to increase the “tov” in his life so he takes pleasure in the girl you imagined...you therefore lust thereby adding to you cache of “tov” and increasing the pleasures in your life..

i have found this to be a completely mistaken belief system (lets just say i put in a lot of trial and error into my empirical research)...this is a mistaken approach because when a person lusts it is TRUE that he is adding tov to his cache but it is NOT free...it is at the expense of the tov you already have acquired....in other words, for every tov that you acquire by lusting you are giving away three or four times that tov from your cache...and the more you lust, the more you want to acquire more lust and the costlier the price becomes...you want a “really really nice tov” its not gonna cost you the three or four tovs you gave up at the beginning of your lust conquest but now it will cost you 100 tovs from your cache...you reach a point when youre gaining less than you have...eventually running into severe tov debt...your life then becomes meaningless and void of any happiness...for me its not at ALL about the assur (see my back and forth with mori verabi money in the break free thread called “thought about teshuva”)...its is purely about this world and this life...if you want to be a better happier living person you need to remove this addiction entirely....then you can make a determination whether or not you are in a happy and healthy marriage...if not there WILL be things that you and mrs kanesher can do to get to your happy place but until then (1) you can never tell if you are or not and (2) if you are not in a happy marriage there will be absolutely nothing that you can do to fix it....

So keep fighting because it will make you a better YOU (which is really what the torah is all about anyway, no?)

Keep fighting
ratm

Rage - PIM

there was an ohr hachaim hakadosh

im sure the guard can re-post it

it was posted around the time of the ohr hacaims yahrteit

it answers every one of your questions

This "Kanesher" dude is a very deep philosopher... (He's much deeper than most people here on the forum probably realize)... So I'll have to bring out some "Ba'al Hasulam" to deal with these deep questions...

The Ramchal and all the Tzadikim explain that Hashem created the world ONLY to be able to bestow His good upon us... The Ba'al Hasulam explains that the evil inclination is nothing more than "the desire to receive for the self". This desire was implanted in us by Hashem in order to make us separate from him, and in order that he be able to bestow his good upon us. After all, you can’t give something to someone else if he is really YOU. He has to be separate from you before you can give him something… So how could Hashem give anything to anyone? After all, in essence, everything in the universe is Hashem! Our bodies, our minds, our hearts, and all our belongings, are really "Hashem". So he gave us a desire to receive. The only thing that separates us from Hashem is this "desire to recieve", which G-d does not have. This is in essence what makes us "creations" of Hashem, and not just a part of him.

However, at the same time that this "desire to receive" is necessary for our "existence" (otherwise we would just be part of Him and not separate), it is the "opposite" of Hashem -because Hashem has no desire to receive anything. Hashem has only a desire to "give", and we exist only by virtue of our desire to "receive". And being opposite of Him does not allow us to become truly close to Him. Because in spiritual terms, the more similar you are to something, the closer you are to it. And the more different two things are, the farther apart they are. There is no “distance” in Heaven.

So what is our job? We can't just negate the "desire to receive" or we would cease to exist as an entity separate from Hashem (this may not fit in so well with Zen, BTW). Also, if we destroyed our desire to receive, G-d would no longer be able to bestow his good upon us, which was the whole purpose of creation! So - the Ba'al Hasulam explains - that our job is not to destroy the "desire to receive" but rather to elevate this "desire to receive" to the point where we want only to receive for Hashem's sake and not for our own sake. The more one trains himself to emulate the attributes of the creator, the closer and more similar he becomes to the creator. By receiving only to "give" to the creator, we achieve the best of both worlds. Not only can G-d bestow his good on us, but we don't feel the shame of being different and separate from the creator through the receiving, since we are receiving only for his sake. This allows G-d to bestow his good on us, because the pleasure we receive is still enjoyed, but the enjoyment is for the sake of the great King, and not for the sake of the "self". The receiving becomes, in essence, "giving".

Ultimately, this also makes the enjoyment much greater in the end, and that is why we need to work so hard to get to that point. G-d wants our enjoyment to be infinite, and if the enjoyment was only for the "self" it would be limited to the capacity for enjoyment that we were created with. Once a cup is full, it simply can’t receive anymore. So if the taking is for ourselves (the cup), so then once we got all we wanted, it would be all over. However, if our enjoyment is for the sake of the King, then the greater the king is in our perception, the greater the enjoyment is. And since the greatness of Hashem has no limit, so too, our enjoyment will have no limit. In the world to come (and some Tzadikim reach this level even in this world), G-d keeps revealing a little bit more of his greatness each day, and this in turn makes the pleasure that they receive from G-d - by giving to Him - more pleasurable each day, since their receiving is for the sake of a King who never stops getting greater in their eyes!

But this type of receiving (for the sake of the king) is a very high level, and in order to reach it one must first be willing to forgo any receiving for the self at all. For example, if one fasts a whole week, then maybe on Shabbos he will be on the level where he can eat a few bites and enjoy it truly for the sake of Hashem. The more we are willing to give up our desires for Hashem's sake over the course of our lifetime, the more we will one day be worthy - and ABLE - to accept all the good Hashem wants to give us for HIS sake. And this is MUCH more pleasurable than if we received it for our own sake.

And that is the secret of the Yetzer Hara, and of all the 613 Mitzvos.

So to answer your question: it's all "good", it's all Tov, and it's all for US - at the end of the day. But for it to be really Tov, we need to learn to take for HIM. (That is why the Satan/Yetzer Hara is called "Tov Me'od" - it's more than good, it's VERY good).

All right, I'm using my thread again and keeping it going now. I fell again  - and I feel that I'm losing everything I've gained here.  Oddly, my shemiras haeynaim has  kept up. I'm at wit's end.

Probably just RAGE withdrawal...

No seriously. Welcome to the wacky world of the addict. We don't understand ourselves very well, do we?

I suggest joining Duvid Chaim's calls.. Have you tried that? If that doesn't work, you may need the "live group support" of a real SA group...

If you go to therapy, ask your therapist about being evaluated for SSRI meds... They can really help take the edge off the obsession.

Nah guard, I was all ready to join DC but my therapists told me to hold off. I've frank with him about where I'm holding

OK - simple goal. Clean till motzeh shabbos. I have to rebuild myself; I was holding at 20 and the like. One victory at a time - Today is going fine, and shabbos parshas Noach will be two. We'll talk about three then.

One and then two. Not so hard. Did it before. B"H my shermias enayim is good, no porn, just dealing with old memories which are somewhat fading and getting boring. One, then two. Mainly the issues is my aimlessness and pressure and I'm with that aggressively in therapy. If only it didn't cost so much (even with a kind sliding scale).

One, and then two.

Someone wise once posted about a GPS:

A person loses his way, once, twice, again and again and he's thinks he's never get there - but the Ribono Shel Olam watches him, and again and again show's him his path from were he is - recalculating the route over and over again"

May the Ribbono Shel Olam give you much Hatzlacha ignoring this "siren call," known as the y"h.

Haha! One , then two!

now for three!