YIRAS SHOMAYIM doesn't work.....when it's about don't do ________ or you going to get it over the head after 120.

That may work for normal people but as an addict, my brain says if I don't ________ I'm going to die.  Of course that is not true.  It's insane and ridiculous but it IS my reality. 

So when there are two dangers -

a) far off, after I die, I'm not 100% sure of what it even is

vs.

b) my brain chemicals are telling me if I don't __________ (look at porn, the woman on the subway, masturbate, have sex with my wife.....) I will DIE right now!!!

there is not much of a struggle there, the 2nd message will win out.

I just had the realization of what kind of Yiras Shomayim can be helpful (I won't say work since I doubt it alone could keep me sober without the 12-Step program and fellowship). I am afraid to _______ because I have a beautiful, close and important relationship with the Creator of the Universe and if I do ______ I may negatively impact my ability to feel and take full advantage of that relationship. 

The "fear" is not of punishment.  It is "fear" of missing out on that unbelievable love that is available to me if I'm in a spiritual place.  Should I act out I would be missing out on something infinitely better than sex.

It seems the trick is to establish that relationship that I can even be in "fear" of diminishing my ability to participate in it.  If I don't have it, I can't be afraid of loosing it.  That is where it seems the 12 Steps come in.  They are a specific recipe on how to get a spiritual experience and then once I have it I don't want to loose it.

Anyways, it was just a thought and I wanted somewhere to share it.  Now I just need to finish working the Steps 

If I may add my two cents...  [or maybe sense :-\  I don't mind if you think that it is nonsense, but as long as it doesn't stink it can still make scents.  ;D ]

Jooboy wrote on 20 Dec 2010 04:00:


& I am not even sure that I REALLY believe it.... Shivisi Hashem l'negdi samid!>

The 12 Step Program educates me to recognize Hashem's existence! It teaches me that it is not only a religious idiom which is socially improper (in our Jewish culture) to express doubt about. The program teaches that the idea of a Higher Power is FACT! It is in front of our eyes - provided we look for it.

A prerequisite to having Yiras Hashem is the belief that Hashem is near me ALWAYS. I am learning that from The Program.

It is only once this foundation is laid down, after I believe in Hashem, that I can use the good old Yiras Shomayim to instill a fear of falling out of his good graces . Of having to endure the cleansing process of Gehinom so that my soul can cleave to Him for all eternity.

beautifully put, reb yosef!

to me it seems that when it comes down to the wire, all the well-thought-out cheshbonos usually don't get off the ground and if we enter into an argument about the merits and demerits of any given action it is usually a forgone conclusion who will win that round (the Yetzer)....

our main weapon of defense is avoidance

Very well said, Reb Zemiros Shabbos. 

.....& of course My good pal, Reb JooBoy too!  :D

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 20 Dec 2010 20:16:


but hes my buuddy

You are right. Doing the Aveira and disregarding any initial Yiras Shamayim you may have initially had, diminishes your Yiras Shamayim so it's very hard to come back and just say "I'm distancing my self, I can't do it". This ability only comes after some time when you have regained some YS by not doing it.

The initial step is avoidance and boundaries (defense), along with Torah and Maasim Tovim-especially Torah and Mitzvos that negate the Aveirah- (offense). Afterwards, IYH, you will see growth in YS and you'll take the battle to higher grounds.

Love, KH

Jooboy wrote on 20 Dec 2010 04:00:


That's what the Seforim call Yiras Hashem that comes about through Ahavas Hashem...

And if you do Teshuvah because you're regretful of having messed up your relationship with Hashem and want to feel close to him again..that's considered "Teshuvah Me'Ahavah" and "Zedonos Na'asin Lo K'zchuyos"!!!

That sounds like a win-win deal if you ask me!

KOT!

EBD

I feel humbled in the presence of such intellectual people. For my recovery, I need to remember that thinking, understanding and identifying reasons are luxuries I don't always get. I need to work my program because I believe I have an addiction and it makes me do things that are wrong (morally, religiously, spiritually, or otherwise). It is my choice to remain in recovery today, no one can possibly force me. If I am here, I need to surrender my right to think, to understand, and to intellectualize. I can think of no greater Yiras Shomayim then accepting the fear of letting go completely and the fear of controlling my own destiny. It is truly jumping off a cliff and the fear that is generated is that of "what will God do with me now". I have fear (yirah is not techinically defined as fear but thats a different discussion) of what goes next. But I also am developing Hahavas Hashem and starting to love the God who is in control. I don't have to be responsible for the outcome of my action, I just have to try to do my best, whatever happens next is not in my control. This has worked to keep me sober for over 8 months, 1 day at a time.

Let each guy choose the best route that works for HIM!

But we must all choose something. NOBODY should just sit back & .........!!!