Here's a very intresting question. After being nichshol shiuld I go to the mikveh? Having to go to the mikveh makes me feel  dirty and that something bad happened. On the other hand when I go to the mikvah I feel cleansed Achla umachta es piha vamru lo poalti oven.

Dear chaver - please peek at what I posted in your first thread. What you posted about yourself really strikes a cord with me.

As far as th Mikva issue, you can do a search on this site and find at least two good discussions regarding what you ask. If I remember correctly the concensus was that there is no real concensus.

Some feel that going to the mikvah is totally useless.

Some people find it impossible to move on after acting out with lust without first going to the mikvah. Masturbation and what leads up to it is painful whether most people admit it or not, so we need some balance after that - mivah helps some get that balance back do they can start off on an even keel.

My feeling is that it is helpful not to use the mikvah as some kind of "solution" to the problem. The problem we have is different than many other issurim. It involves intense self-pleasuring, hiding, habit, and other stuff. Tikkun of the cheit, as it were, may not come anywhere close to fixing the problem - after all, the intense pleasure does not go away...it'll be there next time for us and our body does not forget. There are no shortcuts to getting better, in my experience. Just real recovery.

Personally, I think that all value of going to the mikvah aside, Hashem is Mikveh Yisroel. We do not absolutely require water. We require Hashem. There is no substitute for gently and slowly growing into a real, simple, and constant relationship with your very own, personal G-d. The Borei Olam is for you. Hashem li, velo irah. Li, is the operative word here. As opposed to what many of us get from learning - an idea to really really believe in...we need much more. We need to live with Hashem right now. That is what recovery means to me and the 12 steps got and keep me there, be"H.

Dear friend,




  That's because you were.


 

  That's because you were.


The mikveh is a universal yesodosdika process for a yid to become tahor. We need not feel this purifying process, cause, who can say that we here are on the level to feel anything but Tumah and lust.The great tzdaikim were able to feel the difference. I can't....so what!

But it is clear that Mei Mikvah IS M'taher as Chazal tell us, (wether we feel it or not), and WE, here need any, and ALL the  help that we can get.

The great great tkadikim were moser nefesh to toivel even in the brutal cold of the harshest winters. We can say that they were either meshuganos, (and we know that they weren't), or we can say that they must have really understood what the mikvah was. To break ice, and immerse in fridged waters. Hashem gave us, his children, mayim chayim, and he knew that we would need it. So,....not to use it????

This is not a case of "I like chocolate you like vannila, c"v". Hashem gave us Tshuva.....I won't use it?  Hashem gave us Mayim Chayim, Mei Bina, Mei chessed, the purifying waters of the mikvah. I won't use them?!

It is brought down in chazal that the mei mikvah are M'vatul the 400 different types of tuma, klippos,and nitzitzin bishin, k'neged the 400 fighters that accompanied Eisav Harashah.

Frum!
I had a stage where I had lots of spare time alone in office and I had been looking on dirty stuff too much, but I always made sure b4 I spilled that I have 2 single bills on me so I can go after that to the mikva that's open all day, and clean off, than I used to come out holy and either go learn or do some chesed, well after a while I stopped it, not sure y I stopped it maybe it was cuz I felt like a jerk for acting so, that after a fall I feel like now I'm clean since I went to the mikva and did some chesed or cuz I just was so deep in dirt that it didn't even appeal to me anymore this mikva thing, I thing it may have been a combo of both, so I can not really answer ur question but I can very much relate to u
Hope hashem sends the right answer to ur mind and gives u the strength not to need the mikva so much
Gut yom tov

Just a thought that JIP's great post above brought up for me:

The entire flavor of my relationship with Hashem before recovery was one of drama. "I want to do better! I want to stop!" ...then I'd act out and come back to Him saying, "Take me back!! Please take me back!" ...and he'd take me back, I guess....then I'd feel deep feelings of "deveikus"  - not just plain avodas Hashem, mind you, but deep stuff!

It was either a profound and supercharged relationship with Hashem or I was a pathetic dirtbag a billion miles from him because of disgusting acting out, begging to come back - and He'd take me back, of course!

This, romantic as it is, is not what I see Hashem wants from me. While it may be a nice theatre for enactment of many basic Torah and teshuva concepts, I am now out of the sforim hak'doshim "Petri dish" and into real life. Real life is more normal, more even, and more meaningful - though not nearly as shockingly exciting. But Hashem didn't hire us to have excitement or fun - it's only about doing His Will plainly and simply.

The mikvah itself has little to do with this, but I see that it was definitely a big part of my secret, sick adventure. The total, cheap, taharah that it offers is a nice comeback to the horrifying acting out I obviously thought I could afford to do back then. No more.

I still got to the mikvah, and am trying kavonos I am learning for it, as well, be"H. But it is no longer a counterbalance to my sickness. It is no longer a tool I use for tolerating a lifestyle of horrifying tum'ah. It's a gift I give to Him -  tahor guf to daven with!! Finally it is a wholesome pleasure. Thanks to G-d.

Just a suggestion. Maybe set yourself a goal for when you will next go to the mikvah. For example, I usually only go to the mikvah before Yom Kippur but I have now decided that if (...sorry, when) I reach 90 days of cleanliness I will celebrate by going to the mikvah.

This way it can really be a moment of rebirth and a promise of tehorah for the future. A ger is only tovel in the mikvah at the end of the geirus process because that is when he can truly commit to the cleanliness of the mikvah... that is when it truly counts.

Maybe this will give you something to look forward to - a true, sincere, moment of rebirth.

Dov:

  Just because people "like us" go to the mikvah does not have to mean that this is our way with dealing with or tolerating a life of tumah. Just because I am ill, an addict, steeped in tumah, and the normal musar derech to tshuva does not work for us....this does not mean that everything from the zohar, chazal, etc, should be chucked out of the window. 
  I agree that if someone believes that going to the mikvah is his answer to his illness, it's not, since he continues to act out, BUT, this gift from Hashem, (the mikvah) is in no way a stirah to the addict who uses it.

me wrote on 05 Apr 2010 21:49:


Me, Dov agrees with you. That's why he wrote:



But the Mikva may be counter-productive when seen as:

Dear Me,

As usual, having thoughts bounced off someone else brings balance to me! Thanks!

I do not mean to discourage anyone from going to mikvah, doing teshuvah, learning "harder" or better, or doing anything else good for them, at all.

But by the same token I am here to say that there is a "choli ra" that infests many of "us types". It is the replacement of real progress inside us with a thing that is outside us that anyone can do. It may feel great, especially if it relieves us of some of the guilt, but it is often cheap. Yes, cheap. And you generally get what you pay for, in recovery. Some things only make us feel better, just as dumping our guilt on someone else can - whether it causes them pain, or not....are we about going to "confession" or "absolution" then to go out to sin again? Is that what we are after?

You may say: What? Are you crazy, Dov!? Of course that's not what we are after!! Take it easy - I'm addressing a problem - not you, so hear me out please....

So I'd respond: Does our behavior pattern actually undergo a change after using these kind of tools? If it doesn't, and yet we persist with using the identical tools - I ask you "What's really going on here?"

Most guys I know will admit they watched themselves get worse and worse for so many years, all the while specializing in the exclusive use of tools like these while their lives (and wives) rotted. I know I did!

Perhaps some of us would do better to make more real sacrifices for our recovery - provided that is what we are really after. Feeling better has little to do with actually getting better.

My only intent is to suggest that frustrated folks take a hard look at what they are doing to get better and check whether if it is geared toward actually getting better, or if they are just trying as hard as they can to feel better...there is a nasty side to "b'derech she'odom rotzeh leileych - molichin oso"!

But so many express bitter frustration with this problem and think they are trying so hard!! Maybe they are trying the wrong thing? Only they can know this, not me, nor anybody...

What do you think, Me?

Maskim.

I only believe that the mikvah, should be encouraged (for all). Similiar to someone who has an addiction to walking, and running through mud puddles. The mikvah may not stop the behavior, but to get washed off each night afterwards surely has a benefit to it, no? Just like physically washing ourselves off each night has it's benefit, so to here, in the olam ha'ruchnai, it also will have some benefit.

mikva should be encouraged. But before anyone goes, we should make sure they read Dov's post above so that they know they are just "washing themselves off" to help them make real change, and not just to "feel better"  :D

dov wrote on 04 Apr 2010 17:09:


Very well said and I am beginning to realize more and more how depression/low self esteem/etc. is the flip side of grandiosity/perfection/etc.

Lowness creates a need for specialness and a high to compensate for low....

touch a cord with anyone?

me wrote on 07 Apr 2010 07:30:


Maskim 2!

tried-123...


re: highs and lows..

i can understand why the act of M*** brings us down into depression - or the opposite..when we are feeling depressed we turn to p*** which ultimately leads to m***, and makes one feel even more of the same.

but I could not understand why the highs - accomplsihments, successes, etc...would also stir up these feelings of lets go check out some p***, or go m**** or act out?

until I realized that deeply planted within my self was feelings of low self esteem, guilt, etc.

and since my subconscious believes everythign we tell it - when depressed...the subconscious says, "Right there with ya, buddy...lets go find some more depression!!"

but when on the up-and-up..the subscious again kicks in an and says, "hmmm...feeling a bit, confidence, and positive today are we, ol'chap??? Well we've been programmed for depression - so lets go get some more of that depression stuff".

in other words - we keep doing what we've been doing...because that is what we WANT to be doing.


and until we CHANGE the programming - we'll keep doing the same old.


but its an old tape in the tape recorder... we can change it.
its a wrong number that keeps dialing us - but we dont have to answer it.


(in iSrael - if a person calls you and its a wring number - they will often call you agina, and then YELL at you telling you they have the RIGHT number...ummm!! never the less its still a wrong number!!
)

change your tape...and you'll change your life story.

After all that has been discussed, I can still not allow myself to remain silent.

Mikve is Magic!    Hashem is the Magician.    Anyone who will look in any sefer from any sect (?) of klal Yisroel that discusses this matter will see this is a fact. We do not understand how it works or why it works. Our personal feelings should not be playing a role in this debate. At times we may feel holier. At times the guilty feeling may be stronger than that. EVERY TIME we immerse in a mikve WE ARE HOLIER!!!!  Even a dead person is purified before his burial, either by immersion of the body in a mikve or by its equivalent,  tisha kabin she'uvim. The famous Mashgiach R' Elya Lopian said that he enjoys seeing the chasidishe bochurim coming from the mikve. The tehara is noticable on their faces. _{(Lev Eliyahu)} Even if the tehara is only noticeable by a godol it definitely is there.

True, Hashem is Hashochen itum besoch timosam, but what about ki yireh becha ervas davar v'shav mei'achrecha? We want Hashem to fight the Yetzer Horah? We need him nearby! Any torah that we learn b'tahara, any mitzvos that we do b'tahara, and any nisoyon that we overcome when we are in a state of (relative) purity is a thousandfold more effective!

If you have the option, GO TO THE MIKVE!!!!!!  _{{Be discreet, but do it anyway}}


(Heard that the Satmar Rebbe Zy"a kept the Mikve of his Beis Medrash open even on Yom Kippur. He said that a ba'al Keri should use for a single dip.)






_{(Okay, Okay, I expect to receive a lot of flack for this strong worded post. Ready, Set, start..........)}