higher wrote on 23 Oct 2019 16:08:

Because you listed five points, I can focus on #5. Nobody said that the internet does not make it easier. That wasn't the point. (There weren't street cameras in those days either.)

Trouble wrote on 23 Oct 2019 16:19:

i misunderstood you. i thought when you were saying that its not the internet its us, you were going to an extreme. (as well as saying that theres no need for filters)
point taken. ditto for the other 4 points though
p.s. i think enough has been said for the readers to make their own conclusions. this was fun, but time to bounce!

higher wrote on 23 Oct 2019 16:08:

Just for fun, I'm going to focus on point 4 as it interests me. We are talking at cross purposes (though I made it worse by quoting the R. Miller book). Your grandmother presumably didn't live more than 100 years ago, so her views are rather limited.
Also, I would take issue with the entire idea. History is most definitely not the reserve of individuals that happen to experience it. History has broad sweeping ideas and those are looked at by historians (you can add history major to my English and sociology). One person's life story who perhaps was the daughter of a rabbi or even just a sweet innocent person, does not tell us anything about the broader society. 

i hear that. 
obviously it depends alot on the "historian" and his credentials.
it also depends alot on the individual and his (or her) credentials. 
kinda hard to display anything on this forum. 
personally i thought i got enough to make my conclusion in terms of the general character and the ghetto like protection. (this rav avigdor miller is def. mayrech on, but i dont have it on hand) 
but your point is taken.

sleepy wrote on 24 Oct 2019 07:33:

see above.
i said that mggsbms addressed it.
i dont know if i agree with him in terms of the kittzur, see there.
some good stuff that you wrote btw especially the last one about intimidating. theres lots more to say about the approach to opinions on gye in general, but you make a good point.
personally i feel a chat or forum is a good way to have a debate even with aggressive types of guys because alot of the screaming and noise and intimidation is blocked out. (no, im not saying dov is aggressive). 
this can be a thread of its own....

one thing.
dovs point was clearly explained by hhm before in terms of the babies and stuff. no one is arguing what in fact is worse. (at least the shitah of the kitzur) 
the shmooze is how can a person still do it. 
i addressed that in my response to hhm and no the person isnt a crock full of wtvr there just being played by the yh. someone that does an avierah isnt a kofer to what it says in the torah against it either. the yh doesnt always conform to what we logically KNOW and neither do our emotions, hence our actions. i think i gave a bit more detail there.

hes not called trouble for nothing...

i agree.
also, it just distracts from the discussion and is similar to the intimidation tactic (in that way) that sleepy mentioned before.

Because this thread has been kinda dull today and uninspiring and perhaps even some buffoonery, and perhaps all of the above is my fault, as I'm always causing....., but anyway, here goes: Strangely in the tefillah that was inserted for all to say by mussaf of yamim noraim (and maybe other times as well), we say that the length of the galus is because of our seed emission, and not only little us, but all of Klal Yisroel, and not only by accident, but also on purpose, and not only in this gilgul but also other gilgulim, and perhaps (although maybe I'm reading this wrong): the neshamos all over the place are doing it as well (is there internet in Knockturn Alley and Ottery St Catchpole?), and this is the reason the BHM"K is not being built (and here i thought it was because of all the snide remarks I write on this site), and then we say that He should gather all these seeds and turn them into luminaries, etc. My goodness gracious! All this because of the six or seven leidigers!? Where's the yashrus? I got thru this post and I didn't use the "R" word.

At least this saved me from searching for escorts for a few minutes. Anybody wish we could have those Y"N days again?

Be good fellows; love you all!

Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 03:17:

was done by ALL of klal yisroel. save for yaakov avinu. (and some exceptions). was done enough that it caused such effects. bearing in mind that this is a uniquely serious sin, how many times ppl did it may not play as big a role.
how much is enough?
i dont know.
guess what! (big secret)
neither do YOU!
no proof that it was "rampant''.
no one says only 6 or 7 (no one ever said it either, but hey maybe i have trouble reading the posts)
i bolded some words maybe that will make it clearer, who knows.
p.s. was this post supposed to be inspiring? interesting? im not saying just wondering.
 u2!

just as an aside what does ''on purpose'' mean?
that ''you'' actually want the zera to go out?
i know someone very near and dear who wanted only to go till the edge but never that it should actually go out. 
is he messing around with the prayers? 
seems hard to call that ''intentional'' over ''negligent'' but perhaps thats a question for someone that knows the geder of mayzid well.

May I suggest that a lot of the debate here might stem from people's mesorah? For example, those with a more chassidish mesorah MIGHT be less inclined to think negatively about previous geenrations (I know many chasidim (pure satmar) and their kibbud ov v'eim and their general appreciation of previous doros is inspiring) whereas I think the litvishe world (pre-the making of our gedolim into rebbes) was always more cycnical. 

Dunno. Maybe?

It can get a little confusing trying to work out who is debating who here, so I'm just going to address the oilom (if anyone is interested). I do think that previous doros always had these issues. The torah itself (as I have previously noted and please, don't tell me we cant judge them, I'm not. But I am saying the Torah is full of this stuff) has lots of interesting examples. Classic gemoro about the apprentice who messed with his master's wife... Do you really think the beis hamikodsh was destroyed just because of that? Is Hashem that petty? it's a sign of those times. Such things were rampant (nice assertion there).

There is a Rishon somewhere (helpful that, isn't it) who talks about how people in his dor are doing basically every Aveiro under the sun between men and women. Or is it a kli yokor? I don't remember.

Who does the MB in the biur halocho on the 10 days of repentance bring the teshuva for someone who sleeps with a shikse? Because it so chomur? There are plenty of chomur aveiros. Maybe because it's because its frequent?

For the record, (IMHO) trouble isn't trouble. He's a real Yid who asks hard questions as a yid should. I don't go for all this modern stuff about accepting everything. Look in the rishonim. they asked hard questions and looked for answers. Trouble is just following in that mesora. 

Thank you Bego. You are president already, I think.

I'm not debating anyone. I started with one main point and I'm still there (but I won't use the "R" word).

I'm not your regular question asker. I make observations. It makes no difference to me in the big picture. I don't view the previous generations any differently based upon my assumption.

I do, however, view this struggle differently. Once again, most everyone should have internet filters, but internet is not the root of the problem, us people are. Until that is realized by many, I think, and only me, that we are not doing justice to people and this issue.

One other point please:

Mr higher seems to be a very passionate, driven, motivated and spiritual-striving person. I respect that greatly.

His main point seems to be that there might have been a minority of Orthodox Jews that engaged in this behavior throughout the generations, but the sin, due to its gravity, takes center stage at times, but not because it was rampant (in that context, I think the word is permitted). It's valid and I disagree; that's fine by me. I hope it is by him as well.

I, due to my limited capacity of understanding in-depth intricate arguments, have "trouble" understanding his intricacies, hyperbole, bolded, quoted, line of reasoning, at times. I therefore leave it and do not focus. That is why I'm not a good chatter as well. It's me and my stubbornness and haughtiness that gets in the way.

Last night, gye identified Mr higher with a female emoji. That was the impetus of my comment, joke (which I thought was pretty good). However, gye kept switching his/her label back and forth, so I simply deleted my comment. I apologize.

And finally, dov has been told countless of times that he rambles on and on. He knows it. He does think, however, that he is making strong and valid points in his tangential approach. May God be with us all!

Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 11:53:

that is funny! i didnt notice the emoji change and was trying to figure out the joke...
​since you took the liberty to summarize my thoughts im gonna take the liberty to correct a drop...(oh no...dont worry a thread named parenthesis shouldnt go on that long, right?) well survive another post then. i hope.
regarding my ''opinion'' (and im addressing president bego as well.
contrary to popular belief i dont have an opinion on the matter. (i hope that didnt make it worse cuz its in bold...)
all i was saying was that even if (not just a minority) but a majority of jews throughout the ages engaged in it (save yaakov avinu etc., remember?)
there is still no proof as to how many tmes each individual did it. could be it was a couple, could be it was a hundred could be every week or more!

BUT THERES NO WAY FOR US TO KNOW.
cuz even if each person did it a couple of times, coupled with the severity of the sin-thats what created the implications and the need for its mentioning in zakkah etc.
as you said this is a valid point. you can disagree with it. (duh) 
but as long as the point is valid. (which it is)....
theres no proof!
one way or the other.  (whether it was rampant or not)
we simply dont know.
and therefore we cant make any conclusions.
this makes no difference whether your mesorah is satmar or lubavitch or yekkish or litvish or Somalian for cryin out loud!
(i think its clear by now that i understood ''rampant'' (SHA! NU!) as BEING DONE MANY TIMES by each person (not just whether there were 6 oisvorfs or 6 million-not to say that any were oisvorfs im just borrowing the term.)
i thanked your post because i appreciate your tone.
halevai vayter! (at least sometimes.) 
(for those that learn yosher divrey emes i dont think hes contradicting anything that i was saying but thats another discussion.)