There needs to be a balance between discussing the chomer ha'aveira and giving chizuk to those who have already been nichshal (or will be at some point), which covers about everyone.  Kitzur Shulchan Aruch does give eitzos as to how to be Mesaken this aveira, but does not give the Chizuk that will be needed.

The booklet "Dear Bochur," which is being excerpted in the Shemiras Ainayim Chizuk e-mails and can be downloaded from those e-mails, strikes a very good balance: Tells it like it is regarding the chomer ha'aveira, while giving chizuk at the same time.  So, whether or not you show your son the siman in Kitzur, be sure to share "Dear Bochur" with him.

BTW, I don't recommend discussing this with your son until you have a reasonable degree of sobriety yourself.  "Do what I say and not what I do," is never effective, and even though your son doesn't know, YOU know, and that will make all the difference.

FF maybe first see what Rav Wolbe writes about talking to kids about this in zereiya o'binyan.
I too learned about it from sefarim, although for me it was the artscroll vedui on gellui aryois. I also later found the chazal in the mesechtas katanous

Rebbe you are doing awesome. However here we suggest not giving it all u got. Rather we suggest letting go. Jump in to all the tools and join the community but don't try to fight the actual lust. That will make it stronger.

More on this later

Frumfiend The star wrote on 02 Nov 2010 14:59:


It is at the very end, the last or second to last siman. (I think it may be Siman 150)

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 02 Nov 2010 18:14:

I don't have it in front of me, but it should be 151

I'm so glad I found your post!  It really is a chizuk to me to read your story and see the powerful steps that you are taking.  I also identify in a crazy way with your story - 

I used to have problems when I was as young as third grade - even though I was clueless at the time about what I was doing. As my body matured things started to happen that I thought were kind of cool and fun. I remember the fear and confusion that I had the first time I got wet  :'( 

It was really bad for me because grew up with internet in my house and  it had already become a problem for me before middle school.  I used to sit in class in 6th grade thinking about what I would do on the computer when I got home.  All I knew about it then was that I didn't want my family to catch me. 

But I'm B"H trying now to undo all these years of mistakes - and finding your post is really a chizuk to me in seeing the steps I need to take from here.

Looking forward to growing with you R' Naftali. 

thanks

ur-a-jew: Thank you so much for the warm welcome.

Holy Yid wrote on 02 Nov 2010 05:37:


HY: Thanks very much for the welcome and great tip!
I'll try and get (&learn) it soon

Here's a link I found in case anyone else wants to order it online
http://www.zbermanbooks.com/Page.asp?ID=913866aaca735b055c48328a6c1074c7d146d2af85ba1e45c7fcf415dfe230e1&ProductID=146093&CategoryID=7413

Jooboy wrote on 02 Nov 2010 13:40:


yeah I can definitely identify with that..



Jooboy wrote on 02 Nov 2010 13:40:



I'm really glad to hear that the past year has brought you great results!

For myself, I'm hoping that phone-based groups will work out - but I can definitely understand how in-person meetings add a much greater level of connection/support (& I assume a stronger deterrent factor) - so I really admire you for taking that step and going, must have taken alot of courage to step through that door

I hope we grow together & wish you much Hatzlocha

tomid besimcha wrote on 02 Nov 2010 14:53:


Practically speaking, if I had not chanced upon that Siman then - I would have found out anyways half a year later when one of our Rabbeim told us about it in a Chumash class - so I'm really glad that I first found out from a book rather than get surprised like that in the middle of class

(side story: we were learning about various arayos in our Chumash class and he brought it up - don't remember specifics... but "Is Masturbation a big sin?" was on one of our tests freshman year. The Rebbi was very early in his career at the time & was actually a very normal sincere guy. I don't think there was anything wrong with him teaching us that - and I wish it was on every yeshiva curriculum - albeit not in high school but in elementary school, and probably in very small groups.. obviously a vast subject of discussion in-and-of itself..)

anyways - on the main point of finding out that it's bad (regardless of source) - I definitely don't think that it 'helped' me in terms of stopping. However, knowing that it was very wrong did at lead to at least some teshuva and improved kavona on yomim norayim throughout highschool.. (& obviously also to alot of despair & depression - but then again I had a rough time in highschool for other reasons anyway)


Anyways, that is all in the past - and today beckons
(actually my bed beckons, I really should be going to sleep...)


All the best to you!

thanks613 wrote on 02 Nov 2010 23:52:


Although for me actual physical hirhurim only got active around bar-mitzva time (either a bit before or a bit after, don't remember exactly) I definitely remember having sexual fantasies much much earlier on - probably as early 2nd or 3rd grade as you say, so I can definitely identify with what you wrote. In my case though, they were pretty mild and not associated with anything physical in body yet. I don't know if that's due to differences in maturation, or if it's because at that age I did not have ANY access to inappropriate things yet (i.e. internet no existo, we didn't have cable-tv yet) - if I did, who knows - maybe it would have been earlier on?...

thanks613 wrote on 02 Nov 2010 23:52:


Amen!!! Definitely let's grow together! (But for sure drop the "R'"  ;D    )

Kedusha wrote on 02 Nov 2010 15:09:


I guess, if I could go "back in time" and warn myself about it  - I'd go back to when I was a year before bar-mitzva. For me that would have been the best time to learn about all these things, since the desire wasn't there yet but I could sort of relate to it already.

For material - agree, probably wouldn't pick the Kitzur Shulchan Oruch. If I were to present the topic to myself when I was a young boy, I agree that something like the Dear Bochur would serve as an excellent overview. However, and I only speak of my own personality - I would have also taught myself some of the scary stuff (like the section in Reishis Chochma on this topic - which acknowledges that there are many who fall in this area, goes through some crazy-scary spiritual ramifications, and discusses tikkunim. Other more recent sefarim come to mind as well...). I know that sounds extreme - and I am NOT necessarily saying that it's appropriate for other children- but I'm fairly sure that it would have helped me significantly.

The reason I say that is that while I have a VERY addictive/compulsive personality (SA isn't my only thing - tend to also overeat, love caffeine, expert procrastinator, etc) - I have actively avoided many other addictions like gambling, never smoked or tried drugs, etc. Why? Because I was convinced that these things were "big trouble" beforehand (i.e. before I had any desire for them) - so when desire came bit-by-bit, my fear was stronger than the desire. Obviously, I am making some exaggerations in what I'm saying - for example - I am misstating that the desire for alcohol & drugs is just as strong as the desire for looking at porn - probably that's not true (unless someone is born with a alcoholism disposition) so granted even if I pre-warned there would have been a stronger desire for that than the other stuff...
BUT
I can also remember from personal experience that the first few times that I did MZ"L - there wasn't a SUPER STRONG desire for it either... the first time was mostly by accident (i.e. bumping around b/c it felt interesting) and the second time (experimentation) did feel good but not great. If I recall correctly, it took about a week until it was something that was very pleasurable. So my (very rambling) point  is - I think that to some degree, self-sex is a BIT of an acquired taste (though it gets acquired very quickly) - so the comparison to alcohol/drugs/smoking is not completely unfair.

So - in a very rambling fashion - my point is that if I had known just how bad it was before I had any desire, I might have been too scared to go through the first few times. Maybe that's not being realistic, but that's what I believe relative to myself.

Now I'll completely, sort of, contradict myself:

With all that said - I did try the above stated materials (minus the Dear Bochur part) about ten years ago with someone that I was close to when he was close to bar mitzva. (And I didn't just put in the scary stuff. I also explained that Teshuva was possible, and he could always talk to me about it, etc...) At the time, I had though that I saved him from repeating my path - and continued to think that for a long time. When we spoke recently about deep personal things - he told me that in fact he wound up having this problem anyways. So I just completely contradicted myself right? Maybe - but I still think it would have been good for me personally

I used to get Chizuk from reading Me'am Loez.  The fire and brimstone warnings were enough to keep me clean (I had been given the 1st two volumes in English for my Bar Mitzvah, and I borrowed volume 3, which is the volume that discusses masturbation and z"l at length in Parsha Vayeishev).  My parents felt that reading these Sefarim was making me obsessive in certain ways, so they got rid of them, although I had warned them that "bad things would happen" if I were to stop reading them.  Unfortunately, I was right.  After they got rid of Me'am Loez, I was able to hold out for about 2-3 months before I was Nichshal.  After that, I was not able to stop for the next 5 years, and didn't even want to stop for most of that time.

Wow Wow wow glad I found ur post u sound ready for the full fight, I truly envy u Hatslachah rabah

My idea is i want my son to see black on white that its assur. My experience is that kids cant believe that the torah talks about this. Its may not be nice but asur. The torah says dont touch the torah says dont think cant be!

lookingforwisdom wrote on 03 Nov 2010 15:37:


Well after 20 years of it.... right?

lookingforwisdom wrote on 03 Nov 2010 15:37:


Thank you - but I assure you that vis-a-vis my problem there isn't much to envy. I firmly believe that each person is judged by Hashem relative to what their potential & personal situation is/was. I obviously don't know your situation - but I know that in my case I am so so so so far from what I can be. When I think of all the wasted opportunities, regrets and lost time - I shudder... While I B"H have a career and am functional within it, probably on a generally upward path - my energy and concentration is NOWHERE where it used to be, procrastination abounds (together with its dear friend: 'mild non-clinical depression'), my learning and davening has gone from ok to bad to much worse, and personal projects/goals are at a virtual standstill. I have many plans for improving all of these things, but that's what I seem to be good at: making plans. So many plans and so little followed through. For the past 20 years, almost the entire time I had a detailed practical plan (or series of plans) for solving all my issues (and trust me, if I went into details - they really did make practical sense) - but did almost NOTHING... So if my "readiness" for a "full fight" is possibly something to envy, that's great I guess - but trust me spiritually I'm a mess right now. If I do actually FIGHT the "full fight" over this coming year - that will something different of course. I do feel that it's much more tangible this time... may it be so with Hashem's help..

Let's beat this monster together!!