My view? Sometimes, shame can be a powerful motivator for progress. But only AFTER "the real work" has begun -- it's not a motivator for getting started.

And it's not a real, true, satisfying motivator for true success -- that has to come from a basis of loving ourselves and not beating ourselves up. Which can mean changing some old patterns of thinking. (At least for me, which I'm sorta ashamed to confess. )

But even so, I see value in recognizing shame and using it to motivate our work. As long as we can also remember sometimes that "the whole world was created just for me."  [Also, by the way, I agree with the other posters.]

Can anyone advise me as to the status of dreams?

It's only that the 'Rules' don't talk about them and I need to know.

I'm not much of a dreamer normally, in fact, I barely ever recall any dreams I have, but ironically last night as I slept I had the most vivid dream which woke me up almost shaking in fear. I will naturally not go into details, but it was a tumadik dream. Why this happened on the night that I made it to 1 day clean I do not know, only that it is probably the demonic work of the Y'H. I think I can handle that as a  concept.

What I want to know is if having such a dream counts as a 'slip' or a 'fall'?

Can anyone shed some light?

Involuntary actions are not part of the chesbon, I'm pretty sure. A dream, even a nocturnal emission, a crowded bus without options, whatever.

I don't think the chart is trying to penalize us for what we cannot change (... maybe only for 'the wisdom to know the difference; ham'maavin mayvin?). It's looking only to our conscious world.

However... beyond the world of the chart and into the world of the Torah, there is some support for the notion that such dreams can be linked to inappropriate conscious thoughts during the day. And the chart DOES consider such daydreaming to be a slip, I believe. (The rules are sitting around the site somewhere.) So if, for example, the dream involved the same woman forced next to you on the bus, well... that might be different.

But even in those cases where dreams are linked to the conscious world, it's the conscious acts that are the issue, not the involuntary dreams. (Need I also make the distinction that if somebody wakes up from such a dream with a hand in an inappropriate place, things transform from involuntary to slip & fall if the action continues??)

There's been so much self-flagellation about involuntary actions here that I wanted to jump in quickly and say something. Other guys might have different or additional thoughts....

Anyhow, that's this reporter's view of the world of shmiras einayim.

Dreams don't count as a fall at all. Actually, you should be happy, because it shows the Yetzer Hara can't get you when your conscious so he's playing dirty and trying and get you when you sleep 

Haleivi76 wrote on 10 Jun 2010 09:21:


Just curious, which shiur did you hear about us in? Which Rav?

Thanks!

Disclaimer: THE FOLLOWING IS MEANT AS A SENSITIVE YET VIGOROUS KICK IN THE BUM BY A LOVING FELLOW YID WHO HAS BEEN THERE. THE SAME YID ALSO FEARS NOCTURNAL EMISSIONS AND DEEPLY DESIRES KEDUSHA. HE IS NOT, REPEAT: NOT, A SHEYGITZ. MUCH THANKS.

Dreams? You are worried about dreams!? How about getting a month of clean-time based on what you are doing while you are awake, first. Focusing on my subconscious would be a neat way to bring my concentration to bear on an area that I have the least control over. It would distract me from my actual task at hand: living clean. It would be just plain silly.

Besides, if being a kadosh is your concern about sleeping-keri R"l, I'd sooner leave the kedusha to those better suited for it. Not being a selfish moron is a more fitting goal for me, personally. It keeps me a bit humble, you know.

Have a great chodesh and week Have a great day!

Haleivi76 wrote on 11 Jun 2010 11:49:
In accordance with prophecy, it's going to take more than 1 day.

welcome Haleivi76

INCREDIBLE!!
absolutly incredible !

do you realize you are 1 - attitude away from experiencing freedom ?

think about this - did you ever feel bad in the past?
did you ever feel better after wards?

ok - so you can expect to feel better again at some point in the future.
now doesn't that make for a GREAT day.. or at least a step in teh right direction toward it.

If this sounds like it might be of interest - I can offer a suggestion as to how to get there faster... check in with Guard and get a sponsor or find out when the next 12-step program is starting...

and learn HOW TO walk through gates of freedom!

(and frankly it dont matter if you take the truck or the lorry to get there.. as long as you make the effort yto get there. )



Dov.ii

Dreams don't even count as a slip.  They're totally out of your control.

Maybe watch it though--don't eat so many anchiladas before bed time.   


--Eye.

Halevi, come in.  Come in Halevi.  Can you read me?  Come in.  Come in.  Halevie, this is daat1, can you read me.  Come in Halevi

Thinking about you big time.  I loved what you said about davening for all of us rephua shlemah.  I'm doing it now too. 

How ya doin?

Dear Friends,

I wanted to share something with you. It has put in a nutshell waht I have been thinking about for some days now and I hope it will help us all:

I learnt a little with my Rebbi last night and we were reading a chapter from the Steiplers Sefer 'Chayei Olam'. It was all about a man's Taivos in this world and why he can never be satisfied, no matter how much he has, he wants more. This is the same whether his taivos are for money, food, or any other physical pleasure. The Steipler asks the question why are we built in such a way as to have these incredibly strong taivos, surely it would be better if we did not have them and therefore be more able to resist temptation. The answer given is that H" gives us some wonderful character traits, love, desire, passion etc. But as we have bechiro, it is our choice entriely how we use them. H" wants us to use them to serve him and to love him. This is why the taivos can be so strong, because as strong as they are, that is how passionately we should be seeking to serve Him. If we choose to use them to pursue material, physical desires, they will be just as strong, but because of the nature of man and the world we live in, they will NEVER EVER be satisfied as a man will always be left wanting more.

If only we could use the passion to chase H" as we have to chase these shtusim and that we would never be satisfied no matter how much of H" we have in our lives, what a different life we would have. PG, for me, you and all of us here that we should be zoche to that in our lives.

First of all, you are a good guy despite your sickness.  And yes, that's what it is, a sickness, a disease.  Picture someone who was the same as you, except for one thing.  Instead of having a lust addiction, he had a food addiction.  Just like you, this was an honored member of his community who had done much good for himself and his family.  Just like you he speaks to people with respect and really does try to be a good person.  But when he sees food he just can't control himself. Is this guy a bad person?  Would you hate him?  No!  So why do you hate yourself?!  In truth, I know how you feel because I have felt that way too, but we can't just view ourself based on one character defect.  We need to step back and look at the big picture of who we are, and when you do this you will see that you're good traits outweigh your bad, and GOD DOESN"T EXPECT YOU TO BE PERFECT.  With that said, even though we have a disease, and it may not even be our fault, it is up to us to find the cure.  And there cure is in the 12 steps.  Work this program, go to meetings of some sort and you will become free.  The solution is here!  Thank G-d you found it!

Hey Halevi,

What a beautiful post.  "Dear H", may I find in you what I seek in my addiction."  But I loved how the Steipler put it.  That's a post I can use, and come back to.  So Thanks.

How are you?  What's up?  If we can't get in touch before Shabbos, I wish you menucha shlema.  To you, and your whole mishpacha.

Hello friend
Welcome and well done for opening up to us.
I'm new here too. Our stories are very similar. I even had the same type of dream immediately after joining this site.
Some dreams are merely the result of chemicals in our system and possibly when we give something up, our brains are still in the habit of producing those chemical and hormones.  Such dreams are not significant.
Perhaps it’s just the y”h’s last stab at us, trying to tell us we’re not in control.

The guilt is also just a tool the y”h is abusing to try keep you in his grasp. We were given guilt as a tool to bring us to repent for what we’ve done wrong. Once you’ve opened up to God and sincerely admitted that you made a mistake, God forgives you. Now, you need to forgive you.

God made us “imperfect” so that we strive for perfection. We are not judged for things that we were powerless over – we are judged by how much effort we put in to improve ourselves.

May God add extra strength to you struggles.
ToAdd.

Halevi, How was Shabbos?  Nu, a new shavuah.  One day, Tatti.  You got me into thinking about you and all the guys at R'faeynu   I gotcherback.