shmendrick wrote on 23 Jul 2010 17:06:


Lusting is lusting. Even the little pinky is as if he looked at "makom torfah" according to Chazal... but if it's without lust, such as a medical student studying human anatomy (assuming he controls his thoughts), he can even see nudity. So it's all in the kavana, not in the amount of clothes.

Jooboy wrote on 23 Jul 2010 21:48:


Thanks for the chizuk jooboy (somehow that sounds pejorative, but hey, that's the name you chose.

Anyway, I wonder about this.  Yes, of course, you quoted Chazal accurately. 

However, it cannot mean that , in general, we do not have the power of free will, and that we are not held responsible for our choices.

The Torah and Chazal are replete with far too many instances of telling us that we DO have the power and the responsibility to make the right choices between good and bad.  There are so many psukim to choose...how about this from Parshat Hashavua

וְעַתָּה, יִשְׂרָאֵל--מָה ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, שֹׁאֵל מֵעִמָּךְ:  כִּי אִם-לְיִרְאָה אֶת ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לָלֶכֶת בְּכָל-דְּרָכָיו, וּלְאַהֲבָה אֹתוֹ, וְלַעֲבֹד אֶת-יה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, בְּכָל-לְבָבְךָ וּבְכָל-נַפְשֶׁךָ.

Arguably, the entire purpose of our lives is to exercise our free will and make choices and resist the Yetzer Hara.  So it cannot be true that we totally incapable of doing that, in general.

Nevertheless, this whole forum is for those of us who have not successfully been able to consistently make the right choices in life, and yes, to the extent that this is an addiction, maybe we no longer have a choice.  But I think that it is important that we not hide behind the addiction label to abdicate our responsibilities to make those choices that we are able to.  We should not get down on ourselves, and we should focus on the positive.  But when we can successfully wrestle with the Yetzer Hara, let us make sure we try our best.

Of course, this is a drasha that could go on for a long time....just a quick reaction here.

Shmendrick

Agreed. 

There are many things about which we can make choices.  I can make a choice to not go into McDonald's and eat a cheeseburger but honestly I don't really think the Y'H is even trying to win that battle so perhaps I have a full range of free choice. 

However, if I am walking down the street and see one of the tourists here in NY with only a tiny amount of clothes on, the Y"H is coming out with both guns blazing.  At that point I have the responsibility to make a bechira to not look but my ability to be successful resides in God giving me the power to not look.  On my own I do not have the strength to consistently make the correct decision.  I do however have the ability and strength to ask Him to help me.

Here is a quote from SA white book, which I think may shed light on your discussion.  Knowledge alone won;t help us. But it sure helps creating a clear path for recovery.

SA, White Book, page 26]
I see now that in all my religious striving and psychotherapy I was waiting for the miracle to happen first, that I should somehow be zapped or wrote:


The essence of recovery is learning how to tap into the greatest gift G-d gave us: free will.  As addicts, we do not know how to use it.  And in recovery we learn how to use it.  The first step is learning how to surrender, which simply means to put down the toys.  Yes, it is a choice. Sex is a choice. Porn is a choice. And WE need to make that decision on our own.  You can daven for inspiration, if you wish, but the decision will come from you. Hashem can grant you ratzon, but he will not force upon you the the decision. His true ratzon is for YOU and ME to decide and act on our decisions. 

So, my dear friends, in honor of this wonderful Tu B'Av, I am erasing all my porn movies that I have amassed and turning over a new leaf.  FOR REAL.

Thanks for letting me jump in on the discussion.

-DC

Great News! Hope ur new start of recovery is matztliach! Baruch Hashem bli eyan harah ,after a few week of falling ,i started going to live SA meetings and am now on day 10. (though the ikar is not the day count,rather what is important, today,i am sober).

guardureyes wrote on 25 Jul 2010 23:59:


So.... 

I have been updating my 90 day chart as if I have been clean (67 days now).  That means that I have not logged on to a porn site in the past 67 days.  I also, BH have not engaged in M during this time.

But I have searched for and looked at and lusted at pictures of clothed (including scantily clad clothed women).  :-[

So am I a fraud?  Should I say I have fallen and restart my 90 days?  Or finish the 90 this way, and start again next time with a higher level (hopefully) of Shmiras Einayim?

Whaddya think???

I'll tell you what I think.  What I think is that when I read your posts, and I think about your situation, I am blown away by your humility, your honesty, your plane-spoken way.  You are my example of how to be simple before my creator, and I thank you and I love you, and what you do with your count is between you and Hashem, who clearly has blessed you among men. 

I vote to keep on going with your current count.

The yetzer harah loves to tell us that what we are doing is really not working anyway, that we can't succeed, that we will do better some other time.  When in doubt, assume your are meeting the threshold and just keep trying to do better.

True that lusting after even clothed women is not what your aiming for but as we say in SA, "Progress not perfection" and our sobriety definition includes "progressive victory over lust".  What you have sounds like progressive victory to me.

Thank you so much, guys, for the input!  I am humbled by your posts - not the reverse!

Upon reflection, I think that it makes the most sense to continue this 90 day journey, as flawed as it may be.  I really look forward to coming to the Yemeil Haddin and being able to say to Hakadosh Baruch Hu:
"I may still be very far from perfection, but I can say with some confidence - I did something this year!  I am not exactly the same loser that I was year after year after year, klopping AL Cheit, and promising to change, but then having to deal with the shame and humiliation of showing up a year later without one damn bit of difference!  I have made some progress!  I really am a bit different now, and I have a renewd confidence that I can actually start becoming the Rabbi that I should be without the same level of inner hypocrisy that I  have had to carry around for so long :'( ...."

I have said to my congregants several times that one of the most important things to think about is that when we say 
We really ask Hashem, "PLEASE!  Let me not go through another Rosh Hashana, another Aseres Yemei Teshuva, and another Yom Kippur, and have nothing to show for it!!!!  PLEASE let me be able to accomplish something of lasting value this year - and not show up yet again next year disappointing You and disappointing me as well!

So I look forward to finishing my first, flawed 90 days (with hopefully some more improvement during Elul), and then getting the strength  to do it for real בע"ה once I finish.

May we all have the Koach to really make some progress in the days ahead.

Shmendrick

PS - A special יישר כחך to on making a strong and powerful statement in that direction.  You are an inspiration to all of us!

shmendrick wrote on 02 Aug 2010 16:47:


shmendrick wrote on 02 Aug 2010 16:47:


I glad you're decided to stay on the chart and I think you are being to hard on yourself by considering you're 90 days "flawed."  I'm pasting the rules of the chart as to what constitutes a "fall":

"8) What constitutes a "Fall" to require restarting the count?
There are "slips" and there are "falls". "Slips" do not require restarting the count. "Falls" do require restarting.

A "Fall" is one of the following things:

1) Intentional masturbation

2) Intentionally viewing improper sites

3) Intentionally calling inappropriate telephone numbers

4) Intentionally seeking out and reading erotica

5) Worse things, which I need not mention.

In regard to number 2 (and 4), if someone saw something by mistake and then got a little bit carried away and kept looking at it, or even if someone saw a link and couldn't resist clicking on it but then catches themselves within a few seconds, that would only be considered a "slip", not a "fall". However, if someone decides to actively pursue viewing bad sites chas veshalom, that would be considered a FALL and require a restart of the count (by letting us know).

Also, each person can set their own criteria for what they consider a "slip" for themselves. But as long as they did not do one of the 5 things above, they can stay on the chart if they want."

That being said, I thing all would agree (yourself included) that you want to try to get out of the habit of taking a second look even at fully-clothed women.  In that regard, you may want to read over yesterday's Shmiras Ainayim Chizuk List email which quotes from Rav Dessler that "If a parent achieves a particualr character virtue - even after the child is born - this good trait will be transmitted to the child." (emphasis mine).  In other words, the extra efforts you expend on your own Shmiras Eiynayim will influence and have an effect on your son's Shmiras Eiynayim, a concern that has certainly been on your mind these days.

Looking forward to coming to the Yemei Din clean together with you all.

shmendrick wrote on 02 Aug 2010 16:47:

Thanks. But which statement are you referring to.

shmendrick, you are a great inspiration.  I really gained a lot reading these past few posts.

destructive cycle wrote on 02 Aug 2010 21:23:


That would be this one



That took a lot of backbone and strength, and may it be a true blessing to you.

But, please be with us and stay vigilant - even such a strong statement loses power with time.  I remember having, years ago, thrown a way a particularly favorite VHS video (goes back a while), and then for years kicking myself because I missed it so much . . . . we need each other and GYE to stay strong.  May we all go through this Elul together most successfully!

Shmendrick

Thanks so much for spitting back at me my own words.  I am glad to see that my words penetrated more than my heart. 

And thanks so much for you important caveat back to me.  It is very true.  Your story about he is one that hits home so much.  I, too have plenty of such stories.  But for now I will share the following quote from recovery nation, which echoes your yesod:

[quote="recovery nation]
So, in preparing your road to recovery, you will need to prepare yourself for a time when you might feel empty inside. It will come after the euphoria of beginning your recovery, and it will come after you have put an end to your desire to continue your life the way that it is. This period may last a few days, it may last a few weeks. Rarely, will it ever last longer than that. And in those few weeks, your goal will be to recognize this emptiness, and begin to fill it with the values and the dreams that you believe in.[/quote]

It speaks for itself.

-DC

Well, friends, flawed or not, here I am at day # 90.  ;D .

I am not quite sure what to think about it.

On the one hand, as discussed earlier, it is a far from perfect 90 days.  It includes plenty of slips, not being careful enough about looking at women on the street, web, and elsewhere -- I still am drawn to looking at clothed pictures and what goes for clothed on the street . . . a far cry from true shemiras einayim.  :-\

On the other hand, I can say with some pride that I have not engaged in 90 days in looking at porn, m*, talking to women that I know are dangerous for me, and have not had an emission, B"H 8)

So, it is a step forward.  and I am very  grateful  to all of you who have helped me get there.

But I worry.  I know that truth be told, the Yetzer Hara has not really been that difficult to deal with.  I think with a combination of getting older, plenty of other stressful things going on, etc, I have not had as much of a תאוה as I used to.

I wish I could think that this is a result of working the program.  But I know that i have not worked it nearly enough for that to explain it.

So I worry.  I fear that one day it will hit me, and I will have let my guard down, thinking I have this thing beat, and I will be overwhelmed.  Because my history is such that the good times have never lasted too long.

Yet I will take today to savor - thanks to you all for your help and good wishes

Your Chaver,

Shmendrick

Shmendrick,

Huge Mazel Tov.

As for your fears- One little point. I think you are correct with your "So I worry.  I fear that one day it will hit me, and I will have let my guard down, thinking I have this thing beat, and I will be overwhelmed. "

I find to do 1 week, a month or a year we can find inspiration or white knuckle or whatever gets us there. However, for long term we need a real program. No do it yourself. It wont and can't last.

Please keep us posted on your accomplishments.

Keep us inspired.

David.