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Here we go - Details about JIP
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TOPIC: Here we go - Details about JIP 10596 Views

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 00:27 #62571

  • Yosef Hatzadik
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Rabbi Matisyahu Salamon Shlita told me that he once went to Rav Wolbe's home for a discussion. He found Rav wolbe sitting at his table and learning. There was a motorcyclist's crash helmet on one of the chairs and the floor was strewn with 'not good' records. Rav wolbe saw that Rav Matisyahu noticed them so he commented, "A child must always know that he has a father/home (I don't recall Rav matisyahu's exact wording)."
Last Edit: 23 Apr 2010 00:44 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 01:48 #62577

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silentbattle wrote on 23 Apr 2010 00:13:

Good example - so eisav may have had the chance to become a tzaddik. But he didn't - all on his own, no one else's fault.


Yes Eisav was the epitome of Rishus by his own choosing to be so, NO One but himself was responsible...

But Don't tell me that you are comparing a teen from today's day and age to a Biblical Figure like Eisav.... and then go and conclude that everyone who is in a bad place religion-wise (like rebellious children from dysfunctional homes.....) simply chose to be that way...

It would be like comparing a sex addict of today to..... Paroh (who was submerged in profanity) in the times of Avrohom Avinu.....
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 01:55 #62579

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Tried-123
Its no secret that most kings throughout the years all over were major sex addicts, non-jewish and lhavdil jewish alike, had many ladies to their hand, for whenever they had a need, married whomever they felt they would enjoy, so according to them we r gold!
And that was b4 the danger internet:)
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 07:41 #62644

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Listen, even R' Schach blamed himself for his son's leaving the Charedi world (Dr. Ephraim Shach) - "when I should have been singing shabbos zemiros, I was thinking of new Avi Ezri's..." To be a perfect is very difficult; some things are pashut and some are not - We must do the best we can - and perhaps one day realize our parents did as well...
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 14:05 #62734

  • silentbattle
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I used eisav because you referred to him.

Yes - we can look back and learn from mistakes, examine things and say that had we done things differently, things might have turned out differently.

However, that's very different from saying that parents are completely responsible, and that they're the cause - fact: since we're human, we WILL make mistakes.

It's like when you're driving on the highway, and someone cuts in front of you, sideswiping you in the process. You rear-end him. Now, if you had been more aware, and driving more defensively, you might have seen him coming up on your left, driving recklessly, etc. and slowed down to avoid him as much as possible. But who's responsible for the crash? He is - he suddenly merged into your lane and hit you!

We're not perfect, and neither will our parenting be - but there's a big difference between that and
Tried-123 wrote on 01 Apr 2010 21:14:

Yes societal influences can bring down the level of any child, but if there is rebellion it is only due to lack of a good parent-child relationship.....

No child with a solid secure positive relationship with their parents would give that up for smoking on Shabbos...


You can have a good, solid, secure relationship without being perfect. And honestly, I think that the idea that we can "control" how our children will turn out, is a major cause of issues! In fact, R' volbe used to emphasize letting children be their own people. If you can read the article I mentioned, it's really awesome to see his respect for his child.


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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 17:37 #62787

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Ok guys.....

I emailed Silent Battle's Question to Rabbi Dr. Sorotskin,
Here is his response:

"Personal recollections, especially those that are publicized, are notoriously unreliable.  People either remember their childhood more positively than they actually experienced, or they are reluctant to publicize what they do remember.


No one claims that if you raise your child in a proper environment that there will be no challenges.  The example from the article on R’ Wolbe’s son actually proves my thesis not disproves it.  Perhaps the son was – for whatever reason [it is certainly possible that R' Wolbe was initially less accepting of his children’s “deviancy” and later learned from experience to be more tolerant] – somewhat of a rebel, but he did not go off the derech and the reason for that, as the son makes clear in the article, is because his father reacted [at least at that stage] with acceptance, rather then with rejection.  It is surprising if someone would use that as an example to prove the point that parenting is not a crucial factor in preventing children from going off the derech.


Even those who claim that parenting is not the only factor, hopefully will agree that it is at least a crucial factor.  Hopefully, they would acknowledge that a child who was abused is more likely to go off the derech, than one who wasn’t.  It is astonishing that sometimes the very same parent who is extremely cautious not to allow into his house any newspaper, even a Wall Street Journal, because he is convinced that it certainly will have a very negative impact on his child, will also claim that how he treats his child will have no impact on the possibility of the child becoming rebellious."


Last Edit: 23 Apr 2010 17:55 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 18:24 #62789

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I am not saying that you have to be a perfect parent... Because No one is perfect....

But if you are a very imperfect parent and don't make it your business to build a positive relationship with your child then....
Your risk of ending up with a rebellious teen has just quadrupled...

I am in full agreement with One part of Silent Battles Post:

silentbattle wrote on 23 Apr 2010 14:05:

You can have a good, solid, secure relationship without being perfect. And honestly, I think that the idea that we can "control" how our children will turn out, is a major cause of issues! In fact, R' volbe used to emphasize letting children be their own people. If you can read the article I mentioned, it's really awesome to see his respect for his child.


Don't control your child...
Give him/her the space they need....
Be a good parent (not perfect) but just very good...
And make sure to be positive, respectful, and tolerant....

If you are tough, rigid, and non-respectful to your children, you are not merely a non-perfect parent... You are an ineffective and destructive parent...

And don't get surprised when your child rebels or develops a "Defiant Disorder" (or whatever they call it these days)....

I hope I am not offending anyone....
It's just that we have to stop this epidemic... I've seen too many suffering children caused by bad parenting.....
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 19:18 #62794

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I certainly agree that the relationship between a parent and child is a major factor in how a child grows up - both as far as religious observance, as well as overall emotional health.

And I fully agree that parents who are abusive in some way or another, or those who do not foster a healthy relationship with their children, are creating a messy situation for everyone involved, that has a strong possibility of bearing bitter fruit.

Don't get me wrong - I am a huge proponent of good relationships, I feel it's essential.

The problem is that there's no way to be a perfect parent - there are situations where a parent needs to be tougher, and situations where they need to let things slide - being accepting, setting guidelines and sticking to them, being consistent as far as consequences, etc. And no two children will ever be exactly the same. So any child will ALWAYS have an excuse for going off the derech. And the worst part is that the more society as a whole adopts an attitude that everything is someone else's fault, the more likely children of imperfect parents (that would be...um, everyone) are to go off the derech. It's not a matter of fault, it's just a fact. We live in a society where no matter what goes wrong, it MUST be someone else's fault. And if it's someone else's fault, then why should I work to correct it? And it's a vicious cycle.

On top of that, adolescence is a time of soul-searching, when people naturally try to figure out who they are. Kind of like stumbling around on a mountaintop in the dark, this can obviously be dangerous. Yes, we can give our children the best tools we can, but ultimately, it's still a tough time of life.

To make matters worse, our society also encourages and admires the idea of rebellion, and breaking away, finding yourself, being "independent," etc.

All these together make for a very scary recipe. So we do the best we can. We work on improving ourselves, so we'll be better parents. We show our love and caring and consideration.

But after all that, if someone says that any rebellion must be based on a fault of the parents - it seems to me like they're not respecting the child as a real person.

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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 19:43 #62799

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silentbattle wrote on 23 Apr 2010 19:18:

So any child will ALWAYS have an excuse for going off the derech. And the worst part is that the more society as a whole adopts an attitude that everything is someone else's fault, the more likely children of imperfect parents (that would be...um, everyone) are to go off the derech.


How many off the Derech teens do you know that where searching all over in order to find some type of excuse to rebel.....?

I for one don't know too many like that.....

There is this notion that Frum Yidden are looking for excuses to do bad.... as long as they find someone that they can hang the fault on.... Bingo...... they found themselves a license to do what they love most..... Rebel.....!!!!!! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ ??? ??? ??? ???

When I come to a place like GYE I discover that pretty much all of Klal Yisroel... Adults, Teens, Adolescents, Mid-aged.... Want to do good.... Want to be better.....

I haven't found too many people searching for excuses to do bad....

If a teen is given the tools i.e. Respect as a human, Consideration as a person, and Love as a child...... they will gravitate to good.....

As a general rule a teen will rebel when he lacks Love, Consideration, and Respect as a person....

Can there theoretically be someone who had a decent childhood and still rebelled?.... I suppose so..... But it would be an extremely extremely minute percentage.... Definitely not the norm....

And I AM respecting the child as a real person...
Like all of us a child is influenced by his surrounding and his upbringing.... That is what real people are like.... (Rambam says so)

I think I'm getting too heated up....

L'chaim Friends....
Last Edit: 26 Apr 2010 14:04 by .
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