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Here we go - Details about JIP
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TOPIC: Here we go - Details about JIP 10512 Views

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 29 Mar 2010 19:23 #59956

  • silentbattle
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I truly hope that you can use this time to gain freedom from your personal demons...as we know, nothing ever comes free. Here's how I see it, though: These days, you can pretty much get any fruit you want, any time of year. Still, there are some times when specific fruits are "in season" - you can find better fruits, more easily, and cheaper. Same thing with us. We still have to work for it, but there are times of the year when specific  things are easier than at any other time.

Now is the time for freedom - the freedom you've worked for, the freedom you so badly want. Get as much as you can!

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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 29 Mar 2010 19:31 #59957

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A side point, by the way, which I feel is largely responsible for the "teens at risk" crisis, or whatever you want to call it. It's pretty much not mentioned in any of the discussions of the topic. (Disclaimer - I'm not saying the system is perfect, or even close. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to improve. I'm also not speaking about anyone in particular, obviously, but since the general issue came up here, I think it's important to mention)

What's been left out? The fact that teenagers, children - they're people. Ultimately, they do make choices. People who have parents and families that were wonderful can go off the derech. Kids that have incredibly painful childhoods can choose to work on themselves and grow up healthy people.

And ultimately, while we can always try to improve ourselves, and guide our children to the best choices for them, we can't deny that our children can and will make their own decisions. And despite the society we live in, not everything is someone else's fault.
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 01 Apr 2010 07:33 #59995

  • 123.trying.123
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silentbattle wrote on 29 Mar 2010 19:31:

People who have parents and families that were wonderful can go off the derech. Kids that have incredibly painful childhoods can choose to work on themselves and grow up healthy people.


This is simply false


The following is from the sefer  -חינוך מלכותי :

The mechanchim who deal with at-risk youngsters report that all of the youngsters who dropped out did so only because they received insufficient love and respect at home. Not even one of these youngsters claims that that he dropped out because of complaints ch”v against Hashem or against the Torah… A child who receives sufficient love and acceptance at home will never go off the derech.
(מאמרי חינוך להורים ומחנכים מאת הרב מרדכי הומינר, בני ברק, תשס"ד – עמ' כט)


The following is from the sefer
חכו ממתקים על רבי שלמה זלמן אויערבאך, ח"ב עמ' שסד

כאשר בניו של רבינו הגיעו למצוות, ברך את ברכת "ברוך שפטרני מעונשו שלזה" בשם ומלכות, אולם כאשר באו אנשים אחרים לשאולו האם לעשות כך, הורה להם לנקוט כמנהג העולם, ולומר את הברכה ללא שם ומלכות. פעם בעת רצון, הסביר הוראתו לאחרים שלא לברך בשם ומלכות, ואמר שהנה פשוט אם נער בר-מצוה יפרוש לדרך לא-טובה בשנים מאוחרות יותר, הטענה תהא על האבא, מדוע לא חינך אותו כראוי, ואם כן כיצד הוא יכול לומר "שפטרני מעונשו שלזה", בשם ומלכות, הלא הדבר אינו נכון, כי אם הילד יחטא וילך בדרכים עקלקלות, לא יפטרוהו מעונשו.


The Following is from an article by Rabbi Dr. Ben Tzion Sorotskin:

"It can happen in the best of families" is an expression often heard in regard to rebellious teenagers. Indeed, when a teenager goes "off the derech," we tend to blame the teenager himself..... We tell ourselves that even a youngster from a "good home" can be swayed by a decadent culture.

After nearly 35 years of counseling parents and teenagers in the Orthodox community, I am convinced that this attitude is both detrimental and inaccurate.

It is detrimental because it causes parents to feel powerless in preventing this tragedy from happening to their child.... It is inaccurate because teens who reject their family's way of life are.... reacting to family issues (e.g. anger and hurt resulting from ongoing conflict with their parents).......

Last Edit: 01 Apr 2010 07:40 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 01 Apr 2010 12:57 #60004

  • jewinpain
Tried! As much as I love this statements above! I'm not going to fully accept it, although it would be a big nechuma for me, but I once read an article written by a well known rabbi here in NY, where he claims it to be a nisoyan from hashem just as ur child suffering from any other ilness, some kids just suffer it this way, he may be wrong and the rest of them right! I'm not the 1 to voice my opinion, but 1 thing is sure and that rabbi keeps on saying it, that giving those suffering teens love is the only key to get them back on track, and it shouldn't be any different than showring with gifts and love those who suffer from cancel r"l or any other life threating ilness, and from my experience this is the only way, and of course some heisa treran fin a yiddisha mama, never hurts for the well being of her teen, but again this is not coming to give us an excuess to do wrong things and keep this cycle going that way, it comes a age when we r grown up and responsible for ourselves, it just gives a good explanation of how it happens
May we never experience it on our own
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 01 Apr 2010 16:53 #60010

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I am in full agreement with you...

I was showing that when examining the cause it is wrong to say that "It happens in the best of families...." and it is wrong to oversimplify things and say that all an abused child has to do is choose to grow up healthy....

I can attest though, that there is so much that we can grow and heal...
And we ought to never give up and never underestimate the power of every tinny step we take to move forward... It may feel like we are getting no where but we are indeed moving forward.....

To simply use parents as an excuse to stay unhealthy is obviously an absurd thing to do...
But the reality is that there are very few people that don't want to be healthy.... (If you know anyone like that I'd like to meet them...)

They very desperately do want to heal.... It was simply made very difficult for them...

They often try everything under the sun, but yet are blamed for wallowing in self pity....

The attitude of not holding parents accountable for abuse (while blaming the child for not "getting over it"...) assists the perpetrators in continuing...

I have much to say on this topic but will refrain unless prompted...

To get a fuller picture of where I'm coming from (and for tips to ensure that your children don't rebel...) you can leaf through the following:
http://drsorotzkin.com/begin_healing_process.html

or:
http://drsorotzkin.com/pdf/role_of_parents.pdf
Last Edit: 01 Apr 2010 17:06 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 01 Apr 2010 21:03 #60026

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I do not know much about this subject but I will add my two cents. Generally kids go off because of something their families or mechanchim did, but it is still possible a child could be exposed to the secular world and want out. It is not uncommon for teenagers to slip spiritually if they start collage at a young age. Likewise a child can go to camp for a month and learn all kinds of 'new' things.
זכרני נא, זכרני נא, וחזקני נא אך הפעם הזה, הפעם הזה, האלקים, ואנקמה נקם אחת משתי עיני, מפלשתים
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 01 Apr 2010 21:14 #60027

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Yes societal influences can bring down the level of any child, but if there is rebellion it is only due to lack of a good parent-child relationship.....

No child with a solid secure positive relationship with their parents would give that up for smoking on Shabbos...
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 04 Apr 2010 10:07 #60136

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I remember Daniel Mechanic (project chazon/aish) once tell a story about this.

A Bais Yakov teacher once called him up

"My student is about to go off the derech! you need to speak to her!" (R' Mechanic is an at risk youth expert)

"OH? What's her poison? Boys? Texting? Anoreixa?"
"NO! Philosophy! She's brilliant, and after months of extensive reading she's concluded it's all a lie! She's far too smart for me  I can't duel with her - frankly, she's shook me up as well."

"Wow! Tell her to come meet me."

And so, a perfectly normal Bais Yakov HS girl arrived at Rabbi Mechanic's office.

"So, I hear you have questions..."

"Yes! Where do I begin?"

"How about  - everything - you know, so we afterwards we know where to start with these issues"

And begin she did. Kant, Aristotle, Plato, Hume & Nietzche...Moreh Nevuchim and Sefer HaIkarim, Kuzari and Shaar HaYichud...brilliant, incisive...deep, significant questions... Emunah, the Holocaust, History...

Rabbi Mechanic, though, has been doing this for 30 years. And his alarm went off...

After half an hour, he asked the young clinical genius to cease her soliloquy...

"Maidel, why do you hate your parents so?"

And the facade cracked like a thousand pieces of glass. Trembling cheeks and soon, full fledged sobs...

Rabbi Mechanic left his office and pulled in the female social worker he waiting in the next room "call me when she's put together..."

And two hours of sobbing, rabbi Mechanics cell went off...

She had been abused in the most horrible ways. He got her into foster care, therapy, and finally years later sent her successfully off to an excellent seminary. They had kept in touch - and he asked her "what about the questions?"
"The only questions I have now are about shidduchim"
....

Rabbi Mechanic emphasised that it was instinct from decades of experience - but why would a girl - without a boyfriend or any meshicha - want to give her family, friends - everything she loves?...unless, she really needs to stick it to someone...in thirty years of kiruv - he empasises that he has met out of tens of thousands - FIVE people who genuinely were bothered by intellectual issues. So the odds were on his side (especially for a girl).
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 04 Apr 2010 17:20 #60160

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R' Kanesher
Very interesting...

I once heard from a certain Rosh Yeshiva the some exact thing....
Problems with Emuna have it's roots in problems with parents....

He told me the same story you said over but that happened with him and one of his talmidim...

He had this question that question but the Rosh Yeshiva kept asking him about his family situation.... Until he burst out crying like this Rosh Yeshiva had never seen before...

Oh well.... I guess we can learn the importance of having positive relationships.... It seems to effect everything....
There is nothing more valuable than a true friend.... 
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 18 Apr 2010 04:37 #61723

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silentbattle wrote on 18 Mar 2010 04:10:

Whoa - I agree that dealing with this issue is important. I have several close friends who've been hurt by abuse, in one form or another.

Being aware of the issues, and protecting ourselves and those around us, is important. So is protecting klal yisroel as a whole. But discussing this on an open forum, and pointing fingers at spcific groups within klal yisroel, isn't accomplishing that.


For what it's worth, I never heard of this problem being more prevalent among Chassidim. But it is possibly also true that I am not as involved with people who would know and talk about these issues. Nevertheless I have a feeling that these problems (sexual abuse or out of marriage actions)  are pretty much equal among most groups, although maybe (slightly?) different in nature.
Last Edit: 18 Apr 2010 04:51 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 18 Apr 2010 09:53 #61741

  • DovInIsrael
patterns continue from generatino through generation -

until one person steps up .. and says ENOUGH!

and then the cycle is broken.

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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 22 Apr 2010 22:34 #62545

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Tried-123 wrote on 01 Apr 2010 07:33:

silentbattle wrote on 29 Mar 2010 19:31:

People who have parents and families that were wonderful can go off the derech. Kids that have incredibly painful childhoods can choose to work on themselves and grow up healthy people.

This is simply false


Here is my $0.02 for whatever it is worth . . . it is not simple, and all too often, not false. 

I say this despite the very interesting Reb SHlomo Zalman zt"l story that you cited.

Though is there is much other evidence for this, I can cite the personal experience of myself and of a dear friend. 

Both of us are Rabbis, both have by most people's standards a warm and loving home, both are involved with Kiruv Rechokim and our children have grown up in an atmosphere in which Judaism was patiently demonstrated and practiced without judgmental ism towards the level of observance of others, both of our wives are warm, patient and loving . . . and yet, despite that we are very proud of our children, we both have one son who is either already off the derech or in severe danger of going that way.

Now I know I am far from perfect (after all, I am here : )  and besides my Yetzer Hara issues, I am far from a perfect parent and do not have the patience that I ought to have with this son.  But from day one, he seems to be wired differently from the other kids, and has appetites, desires, values, etc that have the potential of leading him very far away from Yahadus.  It has been a struggle, since he was quite young, to get him motivated or willing to participate in school, shul, and the shabbos table; to keep him away from watching inappropriate stuff and music; to get him to dream about anything other than winning the lottery and being a billionaire and being cool while not having to get out of bed . . . and we are really not sure what to do with him.

I spoke with Rabbi Frand shlita about this and he said "There are so many families that come to me, who have most of their kids that run like a Toyota . . . just change the oil every 3,000 miles and there are no other problesm, but there is one kid that  ??? they are pu;;ing out their hair about how to deal with them.

I could on, but I just want to point out that although the nurturing of the family is critical, it seems that the Almighty decides that other nisyonos will enter and there ain't nuthin one can do except to deal with it as best they can, just like we all learn here

Just one shmendrick's opinion.
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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 22 Apr 2010 23:26 #62558

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An excerpt from an article by Rabbi Dr. Ben Zion Sorotskin:
http://drsorotzkin.com/pdf/role_of_parents.pdf

"Parents will often claim that their children were born with an unusually powerful yetzer hora and, therefore, they as parents were powerless to prevent the inevitable downward spiral.

Eisav is usually pointed to as the prototype of someone born pre-destined to be a rosha.
However, according to Rav Dessler this is a misperception. Clearly, says Rav Dessler, Eisav was not born predestined to be a rosha, otherwise we would have to say that he had no bechira.

At most, we can say that he was born with a temperament that made positive behavior more difficult for him and raising him properly a more challenging (but not impossible) task for his parents........

When Rav Dessler speaks of Eisav having a more difficult temperament, he also makes it clear that less was expected of him as a result (at least initially)."

מכתב מאליהו, ח"ב, עמ' 205:
אך זה ברור שלא נולד עשו להיות רשע, אף שמצאנו בו כמה תכונות המראות על התקשרותו
לצד ההסתר


Last Edit: 22 Apr 2010 23:34 by .

Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 22 Apr 2010 23:31 #62559

  • DovInIsrael
wow - you are all way too serious for me.

I'm going to find bardy.... heard he's opening a new location...
franchising...

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Re: Here we go - Details about JIP 23 Apr 2010 00:13 #62566

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Have a drink for me! 

Good example - so eisav may have had the chance to become a tzaddik. But he didn't - all on his own, no one else's fault.

Mishpacha (or was it hamodia) magazine had an interesting article recently, about rav volbe. It was written from an interview with his son. R' volbe is the epitome of someone who understood people, and belived in understanding each individual. His son agrees with this, and says that without his father's acceptance, warmth, understanding, etc., he would have gone off the derech.

However, it is very clear that his son was a bit of a rebel - for starters, you've got a son of a chareidi rabbi, who's joined the israeli army. So clearly, rebellion is something that IS possible, even in the best of cases.

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