arent all these steps and ways just things that make the next relapse further away, ppl still relapse sometimes, perhaps a bit later so it is also no cure?  just blabbing a thought that just came to me

Dear Andrew,

You're right that there's no cure for an addiction, in the sense that you will never be the same as a person who was never addicted ("I'm a pickle, and I'll never be a cucumber again").  However, by following the steps properly (either the 12 steps, the steps in the GYE handbooks, or the steps of some other good program, if one exists), one day at a time, relapsing is NOT inevitable.

Exactly - one day at a time, we can stay clean forever. People can still relapse, but each person can choose to, or not.

Today, I choose not to.

There's another element at play, as well.  If a person gets to the point where he realizes that another fall, c"v, may kill him, he will behave differently than someone who does not have the same view regarding the consequences of falling.

what do u mean may kill him, in terms of heavenly punishment or literally

andrewsh wrote on 22 Feb 2010 16:29:


No, literally.  For example, think, c"v, AIDS, hepatitis C, or suicide.  If you're certain that it would never come to any of those, think walking around spiritually dead and in perpetual misery.

Dov may have more to add - I'm going to ask him if he wants to weigh in.

the last one is not as strong a detterent unfortunately

andrewsh wrote on 22 Feb 2010 16:34:


If spiritually dead is not a deterrent, perpetual misery certainly should be.  But, with any addiction, physical death is a real possiblity if the person has hit rock bottom and doesn't stop.  Again, I'm going to ask Dov if he wants to weigh in, because he has personal experience with this.

andrewsh wrote on 22 Feb 2010 16:34:


sorry for being harsh, but here goes:

You have absolutely no right to take your life! The ribono shel olem gave it to you to guard, and the first place you will report to is up there. Gehenom is only for those who are zocheh to get there. Many neshamos can spend even 70 years being harrased by mazikim, untill they are zocheh to attain enough of a tikkun to get into HELL!!!

Read R lugasi's sefarim and you will get abig eye opener. DO you know what gehenom is. Without any amount of exaduration of joking, it IS the 12 steps. You are forcibly torn from every single pirud and klipa that you created. Working on it here is THE easy way out. It is easier to look away from the beis hazonos on one occasion, than to face the dinoh shel gehenom for that look! 

The begining of rehab is in a sence 1/60th of gehenom, although chazal may not say it, the kavanah in that meimer chzal, and my point run parallel!!

I know that you are not suicidal, just deopressed and shamed with where you have come. Do yourself a favor and learn a propper perception of what you are up against. Learn R Lugasi 's sefarim, especialy about gilgulim-dibukim-etc...

Unfortunately, knowing and thinking of this didn't stop me at all. Many times I would be thinking that on the day that I don't control myself in these matters it is impossible for me to be happy/in a good mood. But it still did not stop me!

That is until I found this forum. Reading from this forum keeps my mind thinking about this even when I'm offline, I find this to be my ONLY tool.

I think many of us have already looked into these seforim. As i had mentioned above, I myself looked at mesechta  gehinnom. And, many times it is these seforim that add depression to anxiety, and lead the person in the wrong direction. For example, we would think that getting Aids would be a bigger deterant, yet there are many so called "swingers" who spend time with people who have the highest risk of having this disease. So, what do they do? They use that old psychological trick  congnitive disonance, and believe that "it will never happen to me". This way, they can still indulge in their taivas.

I agree that knowing it may kill him does not give self control to an addict.  But, it may very well motivate him to work the program (e.g. a 12-step program).

Exactly - it gives us an idea of just what the stakes are.

Here's another understanding of the addiction killing us - we always have this idea that we'll eventually stop. Imagine if you knew that if you fell one more time, there was no going back - you'd be doing it for the rest of your life. Well, each time we fall, we're making exactly that decision. Because if we keep on falling one more time, we'll keep on going, always thinking that "I'll stop eventually" - until we run out of days.

I prefer being alive.

silentbattle wrote on 22 Feb 2010 18:33:


Great point, SB!  We need to be concerned that if we, c"v, fall again, we might reach the point of no return.  

Of course, after a fall, one needs to realize that it's never too late . . .

andrewsh wrote on 22 Feb 2010 09:23:
 



Certain words just conjure up images in people's minds. I don't think there is much we can do about the fact that our experiences define things for us, rather than dictionaries - or the Torah. They just do.
For example, it seems that the word "G-d", conjures up thoughts of a frustrating, confusing Entity who's main preocupation and interest is punishing people for their sins. You know, sc'har v'onesh, the whole 9 yards. Sounds good to many, but it's actually superficial and really stupid, though many people I know harbor that image even after decades in yeshiva. I carried a bit of it around, too, before starting recovery. All the positive shmuessen aside....it can still be just lip service. What matters is the exact way we relate to G-d right at this moment, and in this act. It defines the word to me. This seems to go for yidden as much as it goes for goyim (if not more).
Not that many people hear "G-d", or "Hashem", and naturally get a sweet, comforting feeling because they remember the Power that will put everything in order and know that it'll all be OK in the end cuz He's got a great plan and isn't out to screw us over. I do know some Breslovers, though... ;D
The same thing goes for many issues, like abortion, homosexuality, Jews, women, conservatism, liberalism, divorce, marriage, your mother (sorry), etc.

So...getting back to your thoughts above, "Andrewsh":
Why does the label, "addict" have to mean "one who has done really bad stuff" - or at least "stuff worse than you have"? Where did anyone get the idea that one has to actually voyeur, expose himself, or be oiver on gilui arayos (ie. with another person - masturbation doesn't seem to 'count' for some reason ???) in order to really be "an addict"?
As a matter of fact, I know of plenty folks who have been oiver on gilui arayos and are mostlikely not addicts. I doubt that the yidden in the midbar who were oiver with the shiksas at sheettim where addicts. I doubt that most men and women who have affairs are addicts - almost 30% of americans have per some surveys, and the idea that all of them are addicts is just plain silly, in my opinion. Of course, it may comfort us to point a finger and say "Oh, he's that horrible? He must be an addict."...but since when is being an addict an insult? Is it, do you think?

You may feel that, as yidden, we are held to a higher standard and maybe we qualify as "out of control" with less bad behavior than non-jews. Perhaps masturbation is horrible enough...Rebbi Akiva may even tell us so (though he might feel the exact same shock about 150 other things we do nowadays). But I digress.

My point is that I do not believe that "badness" is what defines how sick we are.  I believe that it has very little to do with whether we are "addicts". Not being an expert on addiction, of course, all I can suggest is for you to read the First Step of AA. The realizations that brought us here, were:
1- that our formerly trusted and depended upon behavior (using lust, alcohol, gambling, heroin, whatever) actually makes our lives unmanageable - it screws up our lives and the lives of those around us, and...
2- that we came to the conclusion that we cannot successfully stop. We do not have to prove that we cannot stop - how do you prove something that hasn't happenned yet? Rather, to me, it is just as Rav Noach zt"l would define beginner's Emunah/Belief in Hashem: "I have enough evidence to honestly accept that there really is a G-d." Then begins the lifelong mitzva of Yidias haBorei, yisborach Sh'mo.
In the same way, every recovering addict I know, has come to believe that he or she is an addict by weight of the evidence that they are not able to get better by their own power - after all, it was your/my very best thinking and efforts that got us exactlyin this deep trouble, right? Wasn't it? If not, I suggest we just try harder and then talk again.
Nimtza, that the definition of "addict" is exactly these 2 things, per my own experience. The behavior may have been "mild" like schmutzy magazines or internet, masturbation, or more. It's not the behavior that matters - it's what it does to your life that is the issue, to me. The pivotal point here boils down to pure (enlightened) self-interest, not morality nor even Hashem's Will. This is plain to me, though others twist themselves into a  religiomoralistic pretzel over it. Can I take it any more? If I percieve that I can, and perhaps will be able to just stop tomorrow, then I will keep using my drug. Period. And that's what I call an addict. Like me.

So, what it all comes down to is either humility....or humiliation.

In my case, the opposite (staying in addiction/the problem) is just plain gayva - dressed-up as it is in a deep commitment to "making it" as an Eved Hashem.  This gayva in disguise is deadly poison for some of us. I believe that many of us - davka because we are frum - need to get the crapola beaten out of us extra badly and come "this close" to being convinced we are coming to apikorsus for us to finally let go of the gayva and get into the serious recovery we may desperately need.
We often fight it tooth and nail - perhaps harder than we fight our addiction...nu. There are bigger ironies, somewhere.

PS. And, no. The idea of these steps is not to delay the next relapse. It is to finally give up confusing ourselves as G-d Himself, admit we are beaten by our own disease and finally get with Hashem to stay sober - at all costs. I believe that the many relapses you see everywhere are due to lack of rigorous self-honesty. We easily confuse what we should be, or what the Torah tells us we should be, with what we actually are roght now. So we fall flat on our faces until we accept the truth. And the truth is that yesterday does not exist, not does tomorrow: we are only with Hashem right now. Precisely the "Hayom" in k'riyas sh'ma. As Bill expressed his experience in AA, it's only a daily reprieve based on maintaining our spiritual condition and letting G-d in to our lives. Based on all I have experienced, my disease appears to be progressive and terminal. Is yours getting better?
I like the idea of my illness being in remission today. Don't you?

Trust me and all the other recovering addicts I have known: when we live with Hashem and let Him hold the reins one day at a time w/o demands, everything get markedly easier and life starts to get much better as an eved Hashem, son/daughter, husband, father, worker, friend, etc....for all parties concerned. Just ask the wife or kids of any addict with a few years of sobriety. Then ask the wife and kids of one who isn't sober.
Does this help?