I hear it’s good for new members to post their stories.  I’m okay with posting, but I’m not sure yet about being a new member.  So I’m hoping folks might help me determine whether my story shows an addiction or perhaps a success story. 

So, I’m stuck in a dilemma right now.  How do I know when my yetzer hara dresses up in frum clothes and tries to take me to a place I’m not expected to handle?  How do I know if H’ is personally waking up my yetzer tov to jump to a new level of closeness?  How does one know? Here’s it’s particularly difficult since it’s hard to ask my friends, and a little outside my Rav’s comfort zone and certainly his personal experience, and an area where a Yachid can easily trip himself up in justifications rather than logic.

So, folks, I leave it to you to provide some thoughtful guidance.  Should I say, “go away, Sheyd, I’m doing everything H’s expecting of me and more; leave me alone with my occasional “guilty little pleasure.” Or, am I just a “dry drunk” living in “Da Nile” (not the river in Egypt) of “mitzvos she’ba b’aveirah” and need to say, “thanks, Hashem, for the vote of confidence and the certain victory banner in Shamayim for completing my tafkid; let’s go!” ?

Remember, I’m not looking so much for YOUR personal opinions, or the systems YOU have taken on to reset your life.  Don’t send the autoreply of “internet sites will kill you; follow the handbook” because I’m not so sure I’m living in addiction. Instead, I’m looking for compelling, Torah-friendly data that would help me distinguish the response He wants from ME.  Since you’ve “walked the walk” yourselves, your ideas may be incredibly useful. 

Thanks. May Hashem bless you all.

First of all, I wish I could express how impressed I am with oyu, on so many levels - not just for your growth, and your successes both in general frumkeit, and in areas of following your desires. I'm even more impressed that you're grappling with this issue, even though a part of you says that to push it under the carpet for now would be the right thing!

I'll be honest - since I don't know you extremely well, it's difficult for me to give a custom-tailored response to you and your situation.

In general, what you're discussing doesn't seem to be a matter of a chumra - it's a major issue that we all need to work on. As I'm sure you already know, this area is called "Yesod" - which signifies that the rest of our connection to hashem is based on this foundation.

That being the case, considering the fact that you're frum, and follow what hashem wants in general, I'd say that this is an area worth effort - and that the yetzer hora is trying to discourage you by making this extra-complicated. It seems impossible. Heck, I know that when I first started, I'd never even thought of stopping self-pleasuring. But once I got into the habit of it, it turned out to be a lot easier than I imagined (though still not always easy). The yetzer hora likes to make things seem nearly impossible.

I think it's good to have different types of goals, like waiting until mikvah night as a medium-term goal, but also, one day at a time. That's not just an AA slogan, it actually makes sense. Live on day at a time. Today, serve hashem as best you can.

have a great shabbos!

That was some post! I love coming here every day and readong something different. Regarding your dilemna: I am not really sure what your issue is here. What exactly was your Kabbalah? Your friend is sick so you decided what again??? You said that you would aoid all that GYE stands for but you said that you have SSA problem. So is that what you would abstaun from or from pornography or what? I am not really sure can you clarify that?

-Yiddle

Dear friend:

I may not have understood your post completely, but I can assure you that improper thoughts ARE a Torah prohibition...."Lo SoSuru Acharei Levavchem, V'Acharei Eineichem". As it is known that every improper thought that is not removed, it will eventually lead to Dibur, and then Ma'aseh.  Machashavah...Dibur.....Ma'aseh.  And, as I once hear HaRav Brevda many years ago say....."and if it's not enough that the Torah has given us so many g'vulot with the 248, and the 365 mitzvos, that the Torah now comes to even give limitations to our thoughts as well!"

You are right that when "a" thought enters, we are not guilty in any way, BUT, if we don't get rid of it, and even more so, if we let it grow, and we let it take us to where ever it leads....... then we have transgressed this Lav of Lo SoSuru.

And, the fact remains... All of us here at GYE have personally experienced where these thoughts lead us to........

So basically, what me is saying is - you rock!

For joining us, for wanting to grow, for working on these issues, and for making a kabbalah for a short period of time!

My shabbos was great - how was yours?

....even if we say that Lo Sosuru is "only" an issur M'draban, this is in itself very severe, (I am not saying that I myself am not over on this)...but the chafetz chaim says in Shmiras HaLoshon, that a person must be prepared to give up "everything" that he owns just in order to to transgress a M'draban.

I found this on the web:

1) WHAT IS "HISTAKLUS?"

OPINIONS: The Gemara quotes a Beraisa that relates that once, when Raban Shimon ben Gamliel saw an idolatrous woman who was beautiful, he exclaimed, "How abundant are Your works, Hashem!" (Tehilim 104:24). The Gemara later asks how was it permitted for him to look at her? The Torah commands, "v'Nishmarta mi'Kol Davar Ra" -- "You shall guard yourself from any evil thing" (Devarim 23:10); this verse requires a person to protect himself from seeing things ("Mistakel") which later might cause him to have forbidden thoughts. The Gemara answers that the case of Raban Shimon ben Gamliel was different, because it was a case of "Keren Zavis," a corner. RASHI explains that when a person turns a corner, exiting one alley and entering another, he might suddenly cross paths with another person (who is turning the opposite way) and he will not have time to close his eyes. Raban Shimon ben Gamliel did not see the woman approaching and did not have a chance to close his eyes.
What are the parameters of the prohibition against looking at a woman? (See also Insights to Shabbos 149:2, Bava Basra 168:1.)

(a) The S'MA (CM 154:14) explains that there is also difference between the act of "Histaklus" and the act of "Re'iyah." "Histaklus" refers to seeing by chance, without intention to look at the person or thing. "Re'iyah" refers to intentionally looking at a person or thing. According to the S'ma, it seems that it is prohibited even to briefly glance at a woman, and one should be careful to avoid situations in which he might need to glance at a woman.
(b) Many others dispute this view. The BEIS YOSEF (OC 229) writes that the definitions of "Histaklus" and "Re'iyah" are the opposite of what the S'ma writes. The Gemara in Chagigah (16a) explains, according to one opinion, that when the Mishnah there (11b) says that "anyone who does not have compassion for the honor of his Creator is better off having not been created," it is referring to one who looks at a rainbow. The TUR (ibid.) rules that it is prohibited to "gaze profusely at a rainbow" ("Mistakel Bo Harbei"). The Beis Yosef quotes the AVUDRAHAM who writes that the ROSH was asked how is it permitted to look at a rainbow in order to recite the special blessing for a rainbow if one is not supposed to look at it? The Rosh replied that "Ro'eh" (seeing) is not the same as "Mistakel" (gazing, which is prohibited). He describes "Mistakel" as an act of continuously and intently looking at the object. According to this, the Gemara here, too, is prohibiting only gazing ("Mistakel") at a woman, but not glancing or looking in passing.

The MAGEN AVRAHAM (OC 225:20) discusses a similar question regarding looking at an evildoer. The Gemara says that it is prohibited to gaze ("Mistakel") at the face of a Rasha. What does this mean? The Magen Avraham explains that this means that one is not allowed to take a long look, concentrating on his image and figure. One is allowed to "look" ("Ro'eh") in passing at a Rasha, though.

The SEDER YAKOV cites many authorities who question the statement of the Magen Avraham from our Gemara. If there is a fundamental difference between "Histaklus" and "Re'iyah," then why does the Gemara not answer its question by saying simply that Raban Shimon ben Gamliel merely "saw" ("Ro'eh") the woman and did not "gaze" ("Mistakel") at her? This is also a question on the Beis Yosef.

The NETZIV (in HA'EMEK SHE'EILAH 52) answers that Raban Shimon ben Gamliel clearly did not merely glance in passing at the woman. The fact that he praised Hashem for this woman's beauty means that he concentrated on it. The Gemara answers that he did not purposely look at her; he merely encountered her suddenly at a "Keren Zavis" (see IGROS MOSHE OC 40 who also explains the Gemara in this manner). The Netziv concludes that the premise of the Beis Yosef is correct with regarding to the definition of "Histaklus." He describes the Mitzvah of "v'Nishmarta" as referring to looking in a way that causes one to have forbidden thoughts (as implied by the Gemara on 20b). Looking in a way that will not lead to such thoughts is permitted. However, it is appropriate to be stringent, so that one should not end up looking with improper intentions.

(c) The BI'UR HALACHAH cites support for the Magen Avraham from our Gemara. He says that "Histaklus" can sometimes refer to intent gazing, and sometimes to seeing inadvertently. He points out that our Gemara asks a question only from the Isur of looking at a woman. Why does it not ask about from the Isur of looking at a Rasha, which would apply even if the idolatrous woman was a man? It must be that looking at a Rasha is, as the Magen Avraham states, prohibited only when one gazes intently. This is why the Gemara did not question Raban Shimon ben Gamliel's conduct from the Isur of looking at a Rasha. The Gemara instead questions his conduct from the Isur of looking at a woman, where even looking, without concentrated intent, is prohibited.

The Bi'ur Halachah clearly understands the Magen Avraham to be saying that the Isur of looking at a woman is more severe than the Isur of looking at a Rasha, even though the Gemara uses the term "Histaklus" with regard to both. Since the Bi'ur Halachah, later in the Shulchan Aruch (OC 239), does not discuss this with regard to looking at a rainbow, we may assume that he applies there the same definition of "Histaklus" that he applies to the Isur of looking at a Rasha.

The Seder Yakov challenges the proof of the Bi'ur Halachah. First, why would the Gemara question Raban Shimon ben Gamliel's conduct from the Isur against looking at a Rasha, which is only an Isur d'Rabanan, when it could question his conduct from an Isur d'Oraisa (gazing at a woman)? Second, perhaps the woman was not a Rasha and the Isur of looking at a Rasha did not apply.

Even though this Bi'ur Halachah seems to argue on the other opinions, he might still agree with the Magen Avraham's definition of "Histaklus" in the case of a Rasha as being intense and constant gazing. When the Bi'ur Halachah says that *any* "Histaklus" at women is forbidden, he means merely that if it is done intentionally even for a short period of time it is also forbidden. This is apparent from the words of the MISHNAH BERURAH (OC 75:7), who writes that the prohibition of "Histaklus" involves "looking in order to have pleasure." This obviously does not exclude looking for even the shortest period of time with such intent. He continues and says that simply looking without pleasure is permitted, although it is not proper to do so (it is not "mi'Tzad ha'Musar"). He adds that the MINCHAS SHMUEL writes that an Adam Chashuv, an important person whose conduct serve as an example for others, should be careful even in this case.

The Igros Moshe (OC 1:40, 4:15) also states that the prohibition of "v'Nishmarta" refers to looking at a woman with intention to gaze at her and derive pleasure from viewing her, similar to the explanation of the Netziv. However, he states that it is still imperative that every man look downwards as much as possible while he is walking in a public place. He qualifies this by adding that a person should not make himself into one who never looks where he is going, thereby colliding with objects or with other people, causing injury to himself or others (see Sotah 22b). The Seder Yakov says that this is apparent from our Gemara. After all, Raban Shimon ben Gamliel himself was looking upwards when the woman passed in front of him. (Y. Montrose)


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20b
2) THE PROHIBITIONS OF "V'NISHMARTA" AND "V'LO SASURU"
QUESTION: The Beraisa states that we learn from the verse, "v'Nishmarta mi'Kol Davar Ra" -- "You shall guard yourself from any evil thing" (Devarim 23:10), that it is prohibited to have sinful thoughts during the day which might lead to becoming Tamei at night.
There is a similar precept in the Gemara in Berachos (12b). The Gemara there states that the reason why the Chachamim instituted that the Parshah of Tzitzis be recited as part of the reading of Keri'as Shema is because it contains five important topics. One of these topics is that a person must refrain from thinking sinful thoughts about women, which is expressed by the verse, "v'Lo Sasuru [Acharei Levavchem] v'Acharei Einechem" -- "You shall not turn away [after your heart and] after your eyes" (Bamidbar 15:39)."

Why are both of these verses -- "v'Nishmarta" and "v'Lo Sasuru" -- necessary? They both seem to be teaching the same thing!

ANSWERS:

(a) The SEMAK (Lavin 30) answers that the Isur of "v'Lo Sasuru" is a prohibition against looking at women in a promiscuous manner ("Derech Z'nus"). The Isur of "v'Nishmarta," on the other hand, is a prohibition against looking even without any promiscuous intent, but only with intent to enjoy an attractive sight.
RAV MOSHE FEINSTEIN zt'l in IGROS MOSHE (EH 1:69) gives a similar explanation. Our Gemara prohibits looking at all types of things which might cause a person to have sinful thoughts (such as the colored clothing of a woman one knows, animals mating, etc.). The purpose of this prohibition is so that the man not experience Tum'ah later because of the thoughts he had earlier in the day. It follows that this prohibition applies even when one is not having promiscuous thoughts at the moment that he is viewing these things.

The Isur of "v'Lo Sasuru" is a different prohibition altogether. This Isur mandates that a person not think of committing the sin of promiscuity. (It is reasonable to suggest that Rav Moshe understands the Semak, who says that "v'Lo Sasuru" means looking at a woman with promiscuous intent, means that the Isur of "Lo Sasuru" applies only when the man's thoughts would constitute a sin if they were manifested in action; when, however, there is no prohibition for him to have relations with the woman (for example, she is unmarried and Tahor), then this prohibition would not apply.)

We now understand the different practical aspects of each commandment. The Isur of "v'Lo Sasuru" involves thinking about having forbidden relationships. This Isur, therefore, applies equally to women as it does to men. It would not apply, it seems, to a single woman who is not a Nidah, since having relations with her is not Asur mid'Oraisa. However, "v'Nishmarta" tells us that a man may not look at women for pleasure at all, since it might cause him to become Tamei later. This Isur applies to a single, Tahor girl as well, as the Gemara teaches.

RAV TZVI PESACH FRANK (as cited in TZITZ ELIEZER 15:53) argues with this understanding. He comments on the Gemara's phraseology that a person "should not have sinful thoughts [about women] during the day *and come to Tum'ah at night*." Why does the Gemara need to add the last phrase, regarding encountering Tum'ah at night? It must be that since such sinful thoughts cause a person to transgress the Isur of becoming Tamei, one must do all he can in order to avoid such thoughts which lead to Tum'ah. Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank suggests that if a person had sinful thoughts but they did not cause him to become Tamei later, then he did not transgress the Isur d'Oraisa of "v'Nishmarta." The Torah is merely giving a safeguard to prevent transgressing the Isur of becoming Tamei. The Chachamim therefore state that the Torah is telling us that one should not have sinful thoughts because they will bring him to Tum'ah.

RAV SHLOMO ZALMAN AUERBACH zt'l (as cited in Tzitz Eliezer ibid.) and the TZITZ ELIEZER himself argue that this suggestion of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank cannot be correct. When the Chachamim stated that it is prohibited to have sinful thoughts, they made a blanket prohibition because of what *might* happen as a result of the thoughts, regardless of whether or not it actually happens. Hence, even if the person does not end up becoming Tamei, he still transgresses "v'Nishmarta" (or at least the Isur d'Rabanan of "v'Nishmarta").

(b) The RAMBAN (in SEFER HA'MITZVOS, Shichechas ha'Lavin 11) says that the main point of the Mitzvah of "v'Nishmarta" is indicated in the context of the verse. The verse is discussing the conduct of a soldier in an army encampment during a time of war. The Torah is saying that especially at such a time one must make every effort to ensure that the Shechinah is with the army encampment. One spiritual mishap by a single individual could cause the deaths of all of the soldiers in the army! Although the Ramban cites our Gemara, he insists that the prohibition itself is not the main point of the verse. Apparently, he means that he understands that the main prohibition against looking at women and having sinful thoughts is learned from the verse, "v'Lo Sasuru."

The SIFRI D'VEI RAV, commenting on the Sifri (Devarim ibid.) carries this thought further. He says that the Torah is telling people in a war that they must be very careful, even with things which are not explicitly prohibited by the Torah (as the Gemara mentioned earlier (12a), such as drinking from the mouth of a fountain erected for Avodah Zarah. (See Tzitz Eliezer (ibid.), who has great difficulty with the approach of the Sifri d'Vei Rav). (Y. Montrose)




My dear friend...here at GYE we don't hold by "guilt trips". They are just as destructive as any y"h, and they are also one of his strongest tactics.

Hi Briut,

I just got around to reading your posts. Your progress in life towards Hashem is remarkable.

Just FYI, this page has tons of links to great articles, letters and advice in regards to SSA.

We need to keep in mind that the goal of our live's is not for Hashem to be holding up "victory banners" for us in Shamayim, but rather that we become humble servants of a great Master who loves us dearly, and who we want to love dearly in return. Lusting, in any form, is a barrier to this love of G-d.

GYE is here to help people who have a genuine desire to stop lusting as much as possible. This is a life-time process, and does not come easily or suddenly, but it is the goal of the members here.

Your Kabbala for your friend is very commendable. It shows that you recognize the "goal" and you are attempting to take it in steps, by starting out as a Kabala for a friend, and perhaps that will lead you to see that it is possible and start to try and implement more of this process for the long term. It seems to me that Hashem was happy with this "move" towards purity that you undertook, and wanted you to try for even a longer stretch than you had originally planned. Maybe he felt that it would take 20 days of "hard work" to prove to yourself that you can do it... 20 days is reasonable for starters.

I would suggest you read through this page here for many great tactics to help us learn how to control our thoughts. But still, I would focus more on the "actions", since they are more in our control.

As far as your question as to what constitutes an addiction, see this article where Rabbi Twerski explains how one can get addicted to this from a single use! Even if someone can go without it for a long time, he is still addicted if specific situations make him feel powerless to resist it even though it goes against his morals and inner desires. See also this page.

Also, as Rabbi Twerski once asked someone who asked your question, "if you're not an addict, why don't you just stop doing it?"

Without getting into the "prohibitions" involved, I find it hard to understand how a Jew that obviously wants to do Hashem's will (and who claims he is not addicted) would read erotic material or view indecent images/videos. It's one thing if we "slip" with the hand or eyes - or thoughts, but why FEED the lust? This is like drinking poison! Lust destroys the soul and doesn't let us appreciate Hashem's loving kindness in the world... If you are not addicted, why would you keep doing that over the years? Maybe you are addicted after all... Just food for thought 

Anyway, my advice to you is, my precious Jew, that if you have come already so far in your life towards doing Hashem's will and making Him a part of your life, I suggest aiming for the next level of "loving G-d" by trying to eradicate lust from your heart and mind as much as possible, slowly but surely, with the help of this forum, the daily chizuk e-mails and the handbooks (woops, sorry I mentioned them  ).

Also, you may find the SA Whitebook very enlightening. I just put up a new version in PDF format on our site over here.

May Hashem help you to come closer to Him!

Dear Briut,
There is a chassidic idea of the yetzer horah even clothes himself with the clothes of a tzaddik.
Another powerful idea is one of the ways we can know who is is the one talking is if the voice inside is pushing us towards or against positive action.
In my opinion (at least how things work for me) is that when I get into long overdrawn arguments, polemics and mental arithmetic I often lose track of whats really going on.
What I mean to say is that Hashem most of all wants us to give our will up to him as much as we can, this incidentally work completely with the 12 step system.
So therefor what I try to to do is deal with the egg before it turns into the chicken, focus my life on doing good for others breaking my ego and apologizing when I am angry at someone and resentful as well as speaking my fears and getting on with life etc etc....
I put myself into making the day count instead of just thinking the whole day about how difficult it is not to look at porn etc.
This is how I personally feel,  for me the kabolloh would sound a bit different.Maybe something like for the next day I will give my life to you Hashem and to the service of others to help them in there struggles. Please help me to work with my midos and character traits and support me so that I will not need to even think of porn etc.
When the going getstough as it sometimes does there are other ways I use to deal with the issues that arise. But even then the focus of my coping strategies is not my spiritual perfection etc But rather to break my ego.I must give myself into Hashem's hands and he will take care of the rest!
Hatzlocho Raboh

Briut, for a relative newcomer to this site you’ve already made yourself known with your thoughtful intelligent responses. Obviously your life story thus far would make for fascinating reading (Then I almost laughed out loud thinking of Artscroll publishing the story).

You did ask a question in your first post on this thread, which I don’t believe was addressed yet (Except for Nat who posted while I was in middle of typing). Let me first present my understanding of your situation. You are truly an amazing person. You started out as conservative, and have risen from the depths of depravity to the heights of true Torah observant life. You feel that you are perhaps 98% of where a frum Jew should be. You rationalize that the last 2% (perhaps only an issur derabanan) is not something you should work on yet.  It is normal and advised by many seforim not to try to rise too quickly, not to bite off more then you can chew, etc.

You were motivated to take a crack and overcoming this last insignificant 2% for a short time at least as a zechus for a sick friend and so you did.

That is where things started going wacky. You were faced with the possibility that your short term kabbalah may stretch out a whole lot longer then you ever imagined, and you freaked out! In the end it wasn’t that much longer and you should be back to normal.

But you’re not.

Something is gnawing at you. If that last insignificant 2% is so - nothing, why was I so shattered so thrown at the thought of not having this security blanket? What if? What if it’s not only 2% what if it’s a whole lot more then that!

You see my friend, if you are living each day constantly thinking improper thoughts, forget about whether it’s an issur dirabanan or dioraysa, you are firmly entrenched in the Yetzar Hara’s camp, and he will accept your frum life, your yeshiva boys and Bais Yaakov girls. BECAUSE HE STILL GOT YOU! And he of course is appealing to you using the “frum” argument, “It will be too much! It will make you fall all the way down, etc.”

How long do you intend do hold on to this excuse that you don’t want to move too fast? You already have kids in Yeshiva, you’ve been living the frum life for years already.

And most important our goal in life is not 98% it’s 100%.

(If I wrote anything that insulted you I ask you mechilla. And I certainly don’t speak for daas torah, so if your Rabbi tells you otherwise, I retract all that I’ve written).

Wishing you much Hatzlacha,

Me3

Briut

You know all the answers but I dont think you are interpeting them 100% correctly. You say you are giving yourself over to Hashem to fight your battles for you, and yet you say you are  too worn out to fight further.

I think what you need to do, is when an unwanted thought comes to mind, you need to

1)breath deeply
2)be calm
3)Say Ribono shel Olam "I need you to fight this for me, I am giving myself over to you. Please save me."

This shouldn't  be exhausting.

(Now of course if this was so easy I wouldn't be on day 20 something myself)

Before these 21 day I went for 150+ which I'm pretty proud of. And which says anything is possible. BTW have you met our 90 day chart? Nice cheerful place with all sorts of exciting titles and levels.

To whatever extent we succeed in giving the battle over to Hashem, letting hashem act through us, it becomes easier, even relaxing. We can function as yad hashem, on some level!

To the extent that we see ourselves as giving something up, it's going to be a draining struggle. We need to remind ourselves, again and again, that we're freeing ourselves (see my recent post on my thread where I mention this a bit).

So let me try one other point. You mentioned somewhere that you are a fan of R' Shalom Arush's sefer on marriage. You will then be familiar with the idea that a wife is a mirror of her husband.

Not only the way he treats her, but if there is something wrong, some hidden sin in the husband, this too will reflect in his wife.

You may think you're an amazing husband and your marriage is doing great and on the surface I'm sure it is. However, in actuality at the core it's rotten.

Yes. Rotten! Because at the core, You are rotten!

And only you can change that!

But you are not even willing to try.

(Please see my earlier mechilla request and if I don't stop writing serious posts, I'm going to ruin my reputation here).

Already ruined, Me3...there are signs going up all along me'ah she'arim about your change of character...

There's a ram-kol driving around...something about "Me3's sense of humor..._mumblemumble...b'har haminuchos!"

Let me just remind you or inform you if you dont know already. This is a disease. Imagine if Chas Veshalom someone had cancer. They found out it was only in their toe. Would they ignore and try to maintain it in the toe or try to get rid of it completely? If you dont get rid of it, it will spread to the rest of your body. In addition, 2% (I dont know how you calculated that) of Yetzer Hara does not equal 2% of Yezter Tov. The Yezter Hara is much much stronger than the Yetzer Tov. So when you calculated 2% Yezter Hara, that could really be 10-15% Yetzer Hara. And even further more, I dont think Hashem allows you to have any Yetzer Hara especially when you recognize it. You know its bad for you and is probably not allowing you to have the connection with Hahsem that He ultimately wants. So does Hashem really care that you have 2% because you succeeded 98% of your body? I dont know. But if I was a betting man I'd say Hashem sees the potential of 100% and wants you to be there and thats ultimately what you should be doing. What Hashem wants.

-Yiddle