Grant400 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 14:36:
wilnevergiveup wrote on 05 Mar 2021 09:54:
bm263 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 07:43:
wilnevergiveup wrote on 05 Mar 2021 05:23:
I mean, what about any gadol today who significantly outlives their wives?
Hmmm, if anything, I think this proves the opposite point.
Even regular people R"L lose their wives, and I don't assume that someone who's not a gadol is masturbating for 20 years. It would seem like it is attainable even for "regular people"...? Or is that only for "old" people who have decreased sexual drive?
A short while ago there was an 80 year old widower who posted here asking if it's assur for him to masturbate, but I don't like to project and assume that all 80 year olds have this issue.
100% correct!
I think the main point that @Bego was making is that we cannot make blanket statements that something is either one way or the other. By singling out someone who accomplished something extraordinary doesn't prove that it's manageable for others and what I was pointing out is that we may find even more regular people that get along pretty well without it, but that still doesn't prove it to be manageable for us in our situation.
(I wasn't trying to accuse all 80 year old widowers, I was just building off of the Rav Moshe story.)
"Sex is optional "
It seems you keep misunderstanding what the point here is. It's not about chizuk. It's not about manageability. It's not to tell you that it's super easy once you believe this mindset. It's not even to convince someone that he never has to have sex again in is life, and he shouldn't be concerned about it.
All it is - is to break the preconceived notion of sex addicts and chronic lusters, as to the
biological necessity of a sexual high. We trained ourselves over years that it is a
necessity like food, and sometimes we
cannot see withholding as an option
at all.
Realizing that it is a misunderstanding can give one the ability to say no in the face of something he thought was biologically impossible.
Is it hard? Yes. Can it still be unmanageable for many (even if we know someone who can withhold)? Yes. IS IT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE? YES. So singling someone out, isn't here to prove it's manageable, it's to prove it's possible.
So yes, knowing that it is possible can help someone, even if he isn't as capable as the person who proved it. Fighting against something physically not possible is a different battle than something that is possible although extremely difficult. (I believe that's why very often when a record is broken, many people can break it after.)
Thank you for this, but I do not think you're correct on several points. Firstly, are you an addict, you write about them and their thoughts and feelings, so I'm just wonderin'. I was and am an addict. I have sat in groups of meetings with other addicts; I have NEVER once heard one of these addicts say, "Sex is a necessity by me (and I will die without it)." Not alcoholics either. They and I know that it's possible to live without sex, and personally, it's kinda insultin' your rhetoric (and others) as if we are not only sick, but downright stupid as well. Because we're addicted to sex, drink, drugs, etc., do you think our intelligence is on empty? We need to be scolded that sex is optional to the point that if we don't follow our lust desire, whatever that may be, we won't die? Is that a novelty? We know we can live without it, but we don't wanna; it's enjoyable and fun and pleasurable and addictin'. And yes, to the guy who wrote previously that it's not fun and we shouldn't think like that, who is he kiddin'? And then you wanna prove your point from the Tzaddik and Gaon HaDor Reb Moshe zt"l? What are you gonna prove? That one can abstain from sex for ten years? If Reb Moshe can do it, we can!? Seriously, where is the logic in that? We know he was great; we know there were other tzaddikim that did supernatural stuff as well? Maybe we'd like to emulate them, but what practically has that got to do with us? And don't respond please with, "I just wanted to prove that it's possible," for we know good and well that it's possible. I'll clue you in on somethin' else as well; we know that our actions are harmful as well - to us, to our loved ones, to our friends, to the world and to God, and yes, we can be reminded of that as a method of prevention, but we know that, and yet, we engage in those behaviors anyway.
I do apologize for the rant' you are doin' great things here, but please, let's not get carried away with one poster who might have possibly compared sex to food, we know good and well that we need to eat for survival, and we know good and well that survival will continue even if we don't follow-thru on our lustful desires, but it's extremely appealin' to us, and it's difficult to stop. There are methods out there that can help us guys, but tellin' us that we won't die is not one of them.
thanks so much
mzl wrote on 19 Jun 2018 12:11:
There is no need to release. It is imagined - powerfully, but only imagined.. I wish someone would have sat me down and grilled that into me years ago........
That would have not worked. You have to see it - measure it - yourself in order for that to be effective.
And he is talkin' from experience, like many of us are. The need is a perceived one. There has not been one reported case on these pages of a death occurrin' on account of not fulfillin' that need. We are taught humility (although we have a long way to go), and that is how we can call another, read from the book, say a prayer, go to a meetin', etc., and lo and behold, we do not die.
Just trying to reconcile your posts. I believe this also used to be In your signature?
Unless, as I believe the answer is along the lines as changing (and to an extent myself) wrote.
Yes we perceive it as a need, but not that we perceive we will die without it, we just feel theres no point in existin without out
