With all the respect that is due a Talmid Chochom of your stature, MT, my question (which was only a side point to my rant above) is still the same:
Are you a recent baal tshuva? In the decades of your sexual acting out were you not aware of the posuk you quoted or of all the other divrei chizuk and hisoirerus that are being thrown around here?
Of course, often what most people need is a nice vort, un a kluge vort, un a sharf vort. But if we keep telling ourselves all the smart lines and still cannot stop doing dispicable, nisht-passige things?! Do we need more of the same or is this crazy?
What I am sharing here is my experience, things that I have done and still do to stay sober.
So my question is:
Do you feel that you finally got enough quotes to keep you safe from acting out your lust? Or is this just pestering, which means "harrasment" or "annoyance" not because Toiro is annoying to me (ch'v), but because recycling old tricks is a nuisance that has no proven record of helping someone who goes an extra mile for a virtual relationship?
Do you not agree that memorizing brochures from the dentist's waiting room will do much less for my oral hygiene than meeting a guy who lost all his teeth because of bad hygiene? And that the latter will still have less effect than my own teeth popping out of my mouth at a sight of solid food?
So if you tell me (keeping with the dentist analogy) that twenty years ago you've learnt all the books on teeth-brushing, and it made such an impact on you that you've never missed a brushing since, I'll say "kol hakovoid" and "please spread this message to everyone". But if after graduating the School of Dentistry with honors, you then proceeded to bury your toothbrush and floss, and keep walking around with rotten teeth all the while "pestering" people with quotes from the Big Book of Decay Prevention, I'm bound to wonder if your advice is worth the pixels that appear on my display.
And if your come-back would be that "it's working for me now", I would like to know why do you wish Avraham613 to keep doing destructive things for twenty years, till your recipe finally kicks in, when there is a solution that can save his life NOW?

But again, b'chovoid rav, the psukim and maamorei Chazal are, of course, precious and a big part of my life, and I'm glad they're being spread around. They are just not big enough part of my life to keep my penis from dictating my life choices.
Mottel

Sorry O"M that we do not see eye to eye. Doesn't look like a debate will change either of us. I guess that you will not be buying my upcoming "Good Intentions" book.

I was gonna end with a "vort", but I'm finally learning...

So until next time, take care - and stand up for what you believe in (I do so too).

MT

I love you guys. So honest.

Avraham613 wrote on 18 Jul 2012 01:27:


OY! AVRAHAM AVRAHAM

The trigger is lust my dear friend and think good and hard if thats what you want to do. I heard it in the steps and its the Pasuk that MT quoted.

THINK THINK THINK DONT SHUT YOUR BRAIN OFF!!!

IS this REALLY what you want??? Take a deap breath, go outside for a walk and get some CLARITY. YOU DO NOT WANT THIS TO RULE YOUR LIFE!

and for what??? A bunch of pixels on a screen?? a bunch of words?? your going to sell yourself out, possibly get depressed, possibly do what they call " The bunjee jump without a bunjee" ok so they dont call it that, but still. AVRAHAM when a person falls they say to themselves "WHAT WAS I THINKING!?!?" THE ANSWER IS "THEY WERENT"

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE THINK THINK THINK

Take a moment to picture yourself at the goal. whats the goal? well you tell me. Whatever you desire. The goal is to have it, right?

So go ahead and pretend you have it, its all yours buddy.

What have you got exactly now?

NOTHING!

Jokes on you because you bought the brooklyn bridge! And dont think the Yetzer isnt going to rub it in.. hes going to have a BALL (not the inflatable version please do NOT get confused with the inflatable version that would TOTALLY kill the serious mood we got going on here right now)

Avraham. please, I beg of you, THINK before you SINK*

*I was going to go with ACT but "sink" rymes better

Speechless.
I have never heard someone be so blunt and obnoxious about such a sensitive issue...but I loved every word of it.
It is hard to hear those words and not get angry but I know the deep place where they are coming from.
M.T - I truly appreciate the words of Torah as I feed off of them as well.
Mottel - You really see things clearly and your clarity is what I aspire to have. In terms of taking prevention steps before I am in the zone, I have put a filter on every piece of technology in my house and used the Taphsic method as best as possible. My post during my struggle was the first time I reached out for help BEFORE i fell and something I am proud of.
To follow up on that night, Baruch Hashem I was not MZ"L. Because of the post, someone I had already set up contact with saw it and was deeply concerned. HE did not stop texting me until I finally called him. It was the first time I spoke with someone extensively in the middle of a struggle. HAd it not been for that, I would have let go completely. So the post, was effective in that regard.
B'H I have deleted any type of connection (numbers, email...) of this girl and blocked her so I will not be able to contact her again.
I appreciate all of your thoughts.
Mottel - thanks again for piercing through my superficiality. It was needed.

Avi

JustKeepGoing wrote on 19 Jul 2012 04:25:


How bout - THINK before you STINK

MT

Maybe I should change my name to Obnoxomottel.
But then it may give away my true identity...

Glad you took it in stride. Believe me it was motivated by love. I spent over an hour yesterday on the phone convincing my sister not to enable our brother, who, just like me, is a screwed up addict, but who (as of yet) refuses to acknowledge this fact, partly because he is being enabled to continue his destructive life-style by family members. Trust me, my posting here came from the same place of love and concern that I have for my blood-brother.

I am also happy that you're keeping at it, installing filters, posting, calling people. Even in the heat of the action it is a positive development, especially if it stops you from actual acting out. But in order for the program to stick and to have a long-term effect, all these action need to take place prior to getting into the "zone".

And finally, a personal story, which I was reminded of by Alex's post:
When I just started here, about a year ago, I installed filters etc, but I still had an external harddrive full of pornographic pictures and videos.
I was petrified to go into the drive to delete this stuff because I was sure I couldn't stop myself from taking that "last look" at my best friends before removing them permanently from my life.
So I called Alexeliezer (by his invitation) and he stayed on the phone with me untill I accessed the harddrive and deleted the (in)appropriate folders.
I only did this because my mind was made up that if I ever look at pornography again, I'll die (slow and painful death; the dying procces may span over decades and make every day miserable and unbearable). And because I, Mottel, do not have what it takes to have porn at my fingertips and not look. That's the filled shotglass I refered to above.
You can read all about my initial struggles (and bits of this story) on my original thread Personal Recovery Plan.
I am only sober today because when I woke up my first thought was to masturbate while lusting over my wife who was still asleep but exposed herself in a provocative way. This reminded me that I am powerless over lust and in turn, it reminded me to renew my commitment to stay sober today.
Hope my sharing helps someone. It sure helps me.
Mottel

Yes. I have found that I had to give up even checking out my own wife, unless b'shaas tachlis. Unfortunately, it's the same poison.

Avraham, sounds like you're moving rapidly in the direction of true commitment to life without lust. Life is good on this side of the fence, and it's still taken one day at a time.

It comes from love and of course of course of course every word that I wrote to you applies to me.

KEEP GOING!

Mottel, I just read your'e words of wisdom, you really touched my heart. Thanks.

Charlie wrote on 19 Jul 2012 19:58:

Thank YOU, [s]Mefat[/s] Charlie!

Wow wow wow!
I wasn't active on the forum the past 2 days and I seem to have missed tons.
this is a great thread, Mottel your post on the 18th was incredible, so honest and true, yet I can sense the love in it.

Keep it coming Mottel, we all need to hear this.quit a few Newbis joined here the last 2-3 months we all need to hear some tough words.

Thanks, KC

Had a Hava Mina to do something tonight after learning for many hours today.
I read a few stories about hitting bottom while still on top.......and its off to bed.

Goodnight chevra!

Atta boy!

Keep Climbing Avraham

From what I understand that the havah amina will always be in our mind, we just work 1 hour at a time to keep it from becoming a maskanah.

KC

And the way to see the java amina for what it is, is to share it before acting out on it.
Way to go!