yitzhackcbs wrote on 25 Jul 2011 02:43:

Dear chaver,

I have a very close recovery buddy who is also on a state registry for the same - his was a sting operation. His wife and family are bouncing back, he os again living at home and working a program of recovery, staying sober and growing. About six months before he got caught and arrested, he admitted parts of his lust problems to his wife, and also to me. That was gehinnom (at the time), and he was 'scared straight' for about three months.

Slowly, he stopped participating in meetings, and withdrew from the counseling help that he was getting, stopped sharing openly, and eventually disappeared. Then he got arrested.

After he got released, he was so happy to finally be coming home - but I told him then that being in jail was actually easier in some ways than adjusting to his new wife, family, and community realities. They will never be the same. You know what I am talking about. Life is different.

But in that particular respect, for any addict in serious recovery, life is forever different now. It must be. Because life - exactly as it was before we 'got caught' - was the cause and petri-dish for our sick thinking, our growth and development in lying, and all acting out behaviors and compulsions grew out of it. Not from the people around us, but from the combination of that/them, and us as we were inside.

I do not know what your perspective on your problem is - if you are convinced that you are cured for you know you'd "never want to go back there," or if you see your problem as a true addiction. I am not here to judge your derech c"v. It's not my business and there are many good ways, besides the ones I chose.

I am only writing this to ask you this:

Do you consider your problem cured as a result of you suffering its consequences? That is, do you consider the consequences and your problem to be the self-same entity?

In other words, now that you have warned/begged others like you to get help before this snowballs and ruins or changes lives, what help are you currently getting. I am not - repeat not - challenging you. Just asking.

In my own case, an old problem does not go away after getting bashed with horrific consequences and pain. It only gets buried very, very deeply - far, far from the imagination and palate. Have you found that to be true in your case? Or have you gotten help to finnally learn how to live better inside automatically by sufferring the consequences?  You beg others to get fixed up before suffering consequences, so I wanted to ask.

I loved the way you framed the future being in Hashem's hands. Thanks for your share.

Much love and respect,

Dov

I agree that the problem of addiction is a cancer that effects every individual in some similar ways and some not so similar ways.  I ask for people who have never been through the criminal justice system to refrain from making judgments on the inviduals that have.  There is a line that has been crossed that is so easy to cross when one is engaged in an addictive state of mind.  I cannot tell you how many times I was heavily involved in an internet sexual chat, knowing that I am doing wrong and yet proceeding with full force to get the ultimate high from the experience.  This does not even take into account the amount of hours I spent trolling through hundreds of names in a single session until one would be willing to play within my sexual fantasy.  There is a point where age, phyical features and any other pertinent facts do not make a difference.  All I want is my masturbatory high.  This is drug like in its pursuit and I judge no person that has crossed these lines.  It is nothing but hyperbole to discuss pedophilia and mental nuances.  When one is arrested after many years of masturbating for the drug like high, it is the coldest bucket of water and hardest fist to land on one's face.  Even if the Torah does not necessarily make a distinction between an 18 year old and a 12 year old, Hashem uses the system to stop what is truly going on inside of a sex addict and to save a person from the most certain sexual gehenim.  I admit to my behavior and have been dealing with all the repercussions but I am now struggling with my relationship with G-d since I cannot wait until all the dinim stop in my life and some type of normalcy resumes.

Chaim Chuna

That was an incredible post.

You zoomed in on what it is that the addictive compulsion does to us, on our insanity in a very precise way.

Thanks for sharing.

E

Dov\\Thank you for your insight and concern.
I'm not sure if I'm " cured" or not, I'm not sure if we will ever be " cured" . As long as this materal is out there and is able to be viewed there is always that possibilty that I will fall and go back down that dark road. I can tell you that the thought of putting my family ( not that they would)through what they have been through for the last 3 years and what they still have to go through is a very large deterrent. Every time I have a devient thought I think about what they and I have been through and the thought quickly fades. This may be the case now because the wounds are very fresh and as time goes on I don't know how I will process my thoughts. I believe this website and the good people here are an excellent support group that anyone of us can turn to in times of trouble.
I can only take it one day at a time .

Shalom Alecham
yitzack 

one thing that I would like to add to my lasp post is that while I was incarcerated I had a lot of time to do a lot of reading. One concept that I found to be most insightful to me and I am devoting a lot of time and study to  is the teachings of MUSSAR. It speakes volumes to me,I only wish I found this jem a long time ago, this teaching  is a life long commitment  but once you understand the concept of mussar you will want to live your life according to it

Shalom
jim

Unfortunately, not even mussar helped me when I was in full blown addiction state.

chaimchuna wrote on 26 Jul 2011 22:26:


+1

But it does help me before I get "into the zone".  Once I hit that zone, I'm toast.

jim which mussar seforim did you find helpful?

Mechazek
I am fairly new to Mussar , I have read EVERYDAY HOLINESS by Alan Morinis and am trying to follow his teachings and the teachings of the masters. I have delved into his website there is a wealth of knowledge there. Please let me know if there are other formes of information on Mussar out there as I 'm sure there are.
I would love to read a whole lot more as I find this very useful in my life at this time. It is really a beautful way to look at the world. I wish every one can look at the world through Mussar.

Yitzack

Dear chevra. If you are an addict, you may discover that all the mussar in the world and out of it does not work for you. I am not saying it shouldn't. I am just saying that it may be so.

If that is what you discover, that the religious highs and tikun hammidos and truly dovuk states do not save you from being selfish and stupid wjem it comes to porn and masturbation and worse....then you are just a run of the mill addict just like all the AAs out there, and like me and any general SA guy, Jew or goy.

In other words, when every other tool runs out - including mussar (which is not really Mussar nor Torah at all - but "mussar and Torah translated through your already confused mind"), you can then start to approach the steps. If that is what you want.

Finally, I am not saying the steps are the only way. All I am saying is that the steps and 'program' are way, way more powerful than Torah and mussar are for the addicts that I know. Just like Aspirin is much more powerful a remedy for most people with headaches. For addicts, the obsession and compulsion are no longer moral issues - it becomes a disease and usually remains so, even if the quit for a few moths or years. We addicts are simply too sick to use the 'respectable' tools you refer to, unfortunately.

But as a consolation, I must say that few of the people I know who struggle with masturbation and porn are truly addicts!

So Mussar and Torah are definitely the best derech for most people, contrary to what some may say.
Hatzlocha whatever you choose! Hashem is everywhere!

dov you make me nervous when you write such things I am a rebbi and I try to present to the boys a regular concept of religion.but when I read what you write I start thinking if what I need for my growth is diffrent then a regular person then how can I be a teacher for regular people.

Simple. It is easy. Your program wisdom should never be allowed to shine out to normals....until you know that you are really living it. And that takes time. Certainly more than a year of sober time and serious recovery work.

Don't get scared too easily, chaver, it's a-OK. Get well, be well, and then your sobriety and recovery will slowly start to flow out to others. First to other addicts, and eventually to other regular earth-people,

But all this is based on the assumption that you are sick in the head (an addict). Are you?

sometimes I think I am sick and times like right  now I am thinking pareve like I have a very serious tendency towards lusting and I am doing it out of addiction.

Mussar's delicious.  Hashem's is just too amazing.  They're just not my drug of choice.  And I'm crazy for my drug of choice!  Bezras "H I should be so crazy for Hashem and mussar.

Amein!!

I must say that through recovery using the tools that people call "the 12 steps", I am coming to a real love and lust for Hashem that plays a real role in my life. It takes real time, as anything of value does.

And the worst thing we can do that will short-circuit the process terribly is to assume we are further along than we really are by getting carried away with "deep hispaylus/deveikus". It cannot happen quickly.

The real thing doesn't happen because we are at the Kosel, not because we are under the chuppah, and not because we (just acted out our lust and as a result we) really want to never, ever act out ever again. Acting out our lust is always an event - 'the big event' - but getting well is not an 'event'. And of course, how many times have we been shocked to find ourselves searching for the right porn image or even masturbating not very long after our 'deveikus' and 'mussar hispaylus'. Religious convictions didn't seem to save us addicts.

But done right, and with patience, Hashem uses our very addiction to drive us inexorably el cheiko, because he obviously loves us so much. The steps are not life itself, any more than breathing can be called 'life itself'. The steps and sobriety are like breathing. Derech Eretz kodmah laTorah.....davka before. For addicts.

You said so much in your short post, 1daat. So much.