bego wrote on 06 Dec 2022 09:41:
Captain wrote on 06 Dec 2022 04:47:
Clarifying about Hashem's control over the world:
This is a very important point to clarify, because The Ani Maamin (printed in the siddur) says that one of the 13 principles of faith (to avoid being an apikores) is that Hashem creates and guides every creation, and He Does, Did, And Will Do All The Actions. (The Chofetz Chaim and Brisker Rov both said that the Ani Maamins printed in the siddur are the most authoritative position on the 13 principles of faith.) Let's explore whether the Rishonim agree with this statement of the Ani Maamin.
(Note: I am deliberately avoiding the terms Hashgocha Protis and Hashgacha Klalis for now, for reasons that will become clear later.)
Someone earlier on this thread suggested that we deal with the Rishonim instead of contemporary opinions. This is a great idea. But let's first start by going back even earlier, to two Gemaros and a Talmud Yerushalmi.
Shabbos 32a:
The students of Rabbi Yishmael taught: [The posuk says (Devarim 22:8)] “when the nofel (person who falls) falls off [the roof]." The Torah should have stated that "when a man falls off the roof," not "when the 'faller' falls off the roof," because this man did not yet fall off the roof [at the time the Torah was written]! Rather, this person was fit to fall from sheishes yemei bereishis (the six days of creation) [meaning that this was in Hashem's plan from then].
Rashi d”h Misheishes Yemei Bereishis:
As the posuk (Yeshaya 51) says, Hashem is the korei hadoros meirosh, the One Who calls out the generations from the beginning of the world. It was already then revealed before Him all the generations, their deeds, and the punishments they would have to receive for their sins.
Chullin 7b:
Rabbi Chanina said, a person does not injure his finger below unless they first announced it about him from Above.
Yerushalmi Sheviis Perek 9, Halacha 1:
Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai was debating whether to leave the cave. He saw that a trapper had set traps for birds, and a heavenly voice came out and said “acquitted” and the bird escaped. Rabbi Shimon said, “No bird will be caught without Heaven, and surely not a person.”
Here's a list of Rishonim who are clear that Hashem controls every action of every person's life, and nothing is left to chance:
Chovos Halevavos (Shaar Habitachon, Chapter 2 Condition 6; Chapter 3 Part 1 Condition 5; Chapter 3 Part 5; Chapter 4 Part 1; and many other places)
Rambam (Hilchos Taanis Perek 1 Halacha 3)
Rabbi Avrohom ben Harambam (Sefer Hamaspik, Chapter 8, already on the first page and at least 20 times throughout the chapter)
Sefer Hachinuch (Mitzvah 241)
Kuzari (Maamar 3 Os 11)
Meiri (Shabbos 55a)
Ramban (Shemos Perek 13 posuk 16)
(I can't ignore the acharonim entirely, especially some big names:
Seforno (he is an Acharon. Lived from 1475-1550)- Ohr Amim, in Kisvei Rabbi Ovadia Seforno, chapter 15, Hashgacha.
Gra- Yahel Ohr, Shelach 157b, d”h de'inun be'irei. Also Sifra Detzeniusa 55a
Chofetz Chaim- Shem Olam, Shaar Shemiras Shabbos, chapter 3. And many other places.
Chazon Ish- Emunah Ubitachon, Chapter 2
They all are clear that Hashem controls every event that happens in this world, bar none.)
So why is there so much confusion on this topic? Most of it has to do with that there are lines in a bunch of Rishonim about people having just Hashgacha Klalis, and their intent is misunderstood. This word “Hashgacha” is a language of Rishonim, and we must understand what they meant with it.
1) The Rishonim often use “Hashgacha Protis” to mean that the person receiving schar ve'onesh, rather than his life being decided by Hashem using other calculations, which is referred to as Hashgacha Klalis. In fact, this is clearly what is going on in the Sforno (Vayikra 13:47) and Michtav Me'eliyahu (Volume 2 p 75-77) that someone mentioned earlier. See them inside. And see earlier that I mentioned a different writing of the Sforno who goes on for five pages discussing that Hashem is controlling every action.
2) The Rishonim often use the word Hashgacha to refer to Hashem controlling things directly with extra protection. And they use the word “Mikreh” to refer to Hashem controlling things himself using nature, and without invoking extra protection for the person. This can be seen clearly in Ramban Bereshis 19:8 and in Ramban Bamidbar 11:19. And see Rabbeinu Bachya Kad Hakemach on Hashgacha, where this is also clear.
There are some excellent contemporary writings on this subject as well. For hebrew, see the Sefer Be'emunah Shelemah by Rabbi Yosef Zalman Bloch. For English (with hebrew sources), see Divine Providence by Ephraim Pinczower.
I hope this clarifies things. Hashem is controlling every action.
One of the more patronising pieces written recently on the site.
You hope it clarifies things? As though we are all awash in a sea of ignorance until you clarify it? Apology accepted.
1) the most authoritative source of the Rambam's 13 ikkrim is, funnily enough, the Rambam. They are available to all in the Ibn Tibbon Hebrew as well as more modern versions. Go learn them. They have little resemblance to the catechism that is the printed the version.
2) Loving the assumption that you know that the Rishonim mean. The Rishonim say what they mean and mean what they say (except the Rambam who deliberately tried to mislead people, but he admits to that openly).
3) seforno - not sure which version you have, but the real version (not the censored one) clearly says most people, Jews and not, are given over to nature (stars, however you choose to interpret that).
4) I think you got that bit about mikreh vs. hashgocgo from sifsei chaim maybe? He's an opinion, not the only one.
5) learn the last of the 8 perokim of the 8 perokim (sounds like tautology but isn't). He explains what Hashem being in control means (albeit contradicted in various parts of Yad and Moreh but that just makes it more fun to work out what he was saying).
6) that Ramban and Rabbeinu Bachya DO mean what they say, even if it's not conveient. Most people, dont have hashgocho protis.
7) the later seforim changed everything. If someone wants to follow them, they are absolutely entitled to. But we mustn't rewrite the Rishonim.
Sorry if too harsh but I need to sleep and your post needed replying to.
Rabbeinu Bego Shlita,
I have tremendous respect for you and your knowledge. I would like to respectfully respond to some of the points that you made.
1) This one was based on later sources. The Chofetz Chaim and Brisker Rav are later sources. For myself, i'm nervous arguing with them about what the 13 principles of faith are, since becoming an apikores is at risk. But everyone can do what they want. That’s why I brought up exploring the Rishonim.
2) The List of Rishonim I brought all mean what they say.
3) I think it’s very important to read the other piece of the Seforno. when an author takes 5 pages to discuss a topic, it's very important to read that before we say that we know what his opinion is, no matter how clear the other spot seems to be.
4) Never read it. Maybe I should have. But I like to read the Rishonim for myself without later explanation, at least first. (I think we are similar in this regard.
5) I have read it.
6) Not sure which Rabbeinu Bachya you're referring to. But see what he wrote in Devorim 22:8 and in Kad Hakemach on hashgocha. Of course the Ramban writes that not everyone has “Hashgocha Pratis,” but at the same time, many times within the same piece, he writes openly that everything that happens in the person's life was decided by Hashem. please see the two pieces that i mentioned.
7) Not sure which later seforim you're referring to. I haven't read that many of them. If I find the time I might. Please let me know.
I ask that you don't turn this into typical anonymous-internet-forum-style mudslinging. I gave a list of Rishonim. Anyone can read them and comment on them, or not. I think everyone should read through the Rishonim, the ones I mentioned and others that Bego will share, and form an opinion for themselves.
Again, with respect and love,
Captain
1) I'm not arguing with either the brisker Rov, Reb Chaim or the Chofetz Chaim. But I've learned the rambam a few times both myself and with others and the catechism just isn't true. Do you have a mekor for this?
2&3) Reread Shaa'r habitochon. i don't recall exactly where but he has a throwaway line that, "this refers to someone that has worked through all the ten stages etc." his is referring to the yochid. The seforno - I dont know that sefer, but Rav Dessler cites the version and understanding I have given (somewhere in the RH pieces, MME book 2) . Sefer Hacinuch - I agree this is hard to give my reading to. I struggle with it. Meiri is an ultra-rationalist in the extreme Maimonidean path. Not sure that one piece would disprove that (I haven't looked it up yet)
5) But choose to ignore it? he explicitly deals with several of the gemoros you cite (see Moreh, i think 3:40 or thereabouts, where he takes a different path)
6) yedias Hashem (decided by Hashem) is a interesting one. It doesn't mean Hashem intervenes neccessarily.
