I just had this question maybe someone has what to say.

As I understand the mitzva of shofar is to hear (not to blow) the voice of a shofar, hence the brocho 'lishmoa', if so why is it that the din is that inorder for the kohol to be yoitzai the Baal tokea must ensure that he has in mind to be motzi them, surly they have fullfiled the mitzva by hearing alone so what is there to be motzi them with?!?! They have done the mitzva themselevs just like lulav and matza etc!!!!!!!!!   

Good point.

The blowing though is part of the mitzva, and needs to be done by a ba'ar chiyuva etc.

So apparently there is a step more, and the sound that is created has to be for the person listening.

Hmmm, can't think of an analogy except for get.

now, what is the connection between these two???

If the blowing is also part of the mitzva, I have 1 question:

1) surely everyone would need to blow for themselves! How can I be yotzai the chiyuv to blow by hearing someone else blow?! Can I be yotzai lulav by hearing someone else shake there lulav?!

The Chiyuv is listening, as you first pointed out.
But you have to listen to a proper mitzva kol, which means not just a sound, but a sound made by a bar chiyuva, l'shem chiyuv, and as you pointed out, even l'shem the chiyuv of the particular listener.

Thanx
Only I findthis very strange, are the any other cases like this?

It must be related to the regular din of shomaya k'onah.
We intuitively thought that we need the kavana of the mashmiya, to give permission so to speak for the shomaiya to be as if he said it himself.
But perhaps its not like that. After all, if I hear a bar chiyuva say a bracha, why can't I automatically listen with the kavana to be as if I said it?

Perhaps here too, really we all need to blow, not for the sake of the actual action of blowing, but for the purpose of creating a sound that we can listen to.

Are you suggesting that there is a new way to look at the mitzva Ie, not to blow, not to hear, rather to produce a kol shofar- to be mashmia kol.

I'm not sure if understood correctly, but how does this help? As far as I know, shomea keoneh only applies for dibbur, not for hashmoas kol!

Also wouldn't the brocho be 'leHAshmia'?

I really appreciate your patience, thanx.

PS I asked my rosh yeshiva, and he suggested a very lomdishe answer which I will share soon.

No.
the mitzva is to listen to the kol shofar.
On shabbos the mitzva is to say kidush.

The question is what is kidush / kol shofar?

It appears that they are actions done not just 'lshem mitzva' in general, but l'shem MY mitzva. It infuses the action with a kavana that is specific.

Why, I have not a clue.

But it teaches me that that kavana the mekadesh has on Shabbos to be motzi everyone, is not  a 'permission' for them to latch onto his performance.  (this is the way I had understood it until now) They don't need his permission! It is simply so that a kidush lishmoh can be created for the listeners as well.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what your Rosh Hasyeshiva suggests!

Im sorry, but I still don't get it.

First of all what is the compareson to kiddush?!
By kiddush the mitzva is to SAY kiddush Not to HEAR! Whereas the mitzva of shofar is to HEAR the shofar not to BLOW!

And indeed that is precisely my question, even if as you suggest the action of the mitzva must have a kavono for MY mitzva, surely we just explained that the 'action' of the mitzva IS  to listen, if so, so long as I do my LISTENING with the kavono that it is for MY mitzva-I'm good!

Why is it then that the man blowing, -who has nothing to do with my mitzva- must have in mind to be motzie the listener?
For what? For the listening?
He does that himself!!

For the blowing? Who needs blowing!


(kiddush is of course diferent, because there one must SAY it, and HEARING is only a mean of it being CONSIDERED as if he SAID it.)

With you not14. I hear the question havn't heard a good answer yet. What happened with your Rosh Yeshiva's answer?

I can't be so allaborate now, but here goes.

I hope I'm clear, it's a bit complicated.

My RY wants draw an analogy to for example to a lo saaseh of shabbos.

Inorder for one to be chayov for baking on shabbos, one would have to put a cake in the oven, BUT, one is only chayov once it has baked, so if a goy took it out before it had a chance to bake, he is potur.

Now in a case where it did bake, so he is chayov, what did he do wrong?
Bake it?
No! He didn't bake it thhe oven did!
What he did wrong was to put it in the oven, but as I said before that's not good enough-it has to bake inorder to be chayov!

So you need both, putting it in the oven is the ma'aseh (deed) hoaveiro, and the baking is the kiyum (fullfilment) hoaveiro.

Same goes here, the fullfiment, kiyum of the mitzva is hearing, the ma'aseh (deed) of the mitzva is to blow.

Now, since you only fullfill the mitzva once you've heard, therefor the brocho is lishmoa, but it does not mean that blowing has nothing todo with it!

So the reason the one who blows must have in mind to be motzei is NOT for the Kiyum (listening) rather for the blowing- the ma'aseh,(just like I'm not chayov for baking unless I actually put the cake in the oven, so to Im not yotzai the mitzva unless I actually blow it!)

And if your thinking 'well he did not blow it, so how is he yotzai blowing from someone else??!'
Good question I'll explain later:)
But let if you got it so far.

Basically, this is rephrasing the idea that although listening is the mitzva, I need to listen to a mitvzva-sound, not just a sound. So there are limitations on who can blow (only a bar chiyuva) and there can be by extension the need for the blower to include kavana lshem mitva when blowing, and then, by extension, we can even hear that he must have kavana for me, the listener.
Still don't know WHY there needs to be kavana for the listener....

Regarding Kidush and brachos in general, true the mitzva is saying the kidush etc, but so what? Why does the person who is reciting it have to have me in mind in order to facilitate shomaya k'ona? It should be enough that  he has in mind l'shem his own mitva, and I have in mind to listen and be k'onah?

Kutan, I think that's what the Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim I: 173) is saying (see especially the last paragraph on p. 294).