Admin Comment: Since this thread caused some Machlokes, Yakov asked that we remove it. He asked only that I leave "Step 13"  ;D... Thank you Yakov!!

13. Having Shtayged from GYE and realized that without this site we never would have made it, we took upon ourselves to thank Rabeinu Haguard constantly and donate generously to the site.

Dearest Holiest Yakov,

Our removal of the 12-Torah steps from www.jewishsexuality.com from our "12-Step" section on our site was because Boruch claimed that approach completely misses what the 12-Steps are all about. Here is what Boruch wrote me, and we quoted it in Chizuk e-mail #444:

Our instant-gratification society has ignored the original prescription of AA which was ALL about Group, sponsor and working the steps and has just taken the steps in isolation. Who needs a Group and sponsor if I can just read a list of steps on my own? Why, we can find lists of the steps all over the web and many think that there is some value in the steps on their own.

We need to go back to encouraging the old AA system of group, sponsor and working the steps. And for those who are not ready for that yet, we need to encourage them to read the Big Book.

But we have not done that yet on Guardureyes, and we are paying the price without even realizing it. I can give you one excellent, well intended example of where we have totally lost our way.

On our site we have The 12 Torah Steps (copied from www.jewishsexuality.com). What could be better than that? Torah and the Steps wrapped in one!!! The best of Bill W. and Breslov. It seems like the perfect combination. Self-help, spirituality and kedusha all rolled into one. And all in an easy, step by step guide.

I am going to say something that will sound extreme, but once you see it, it will be as clear as day.

In producing the Torah Steps we have totally lost our way. We have shown that we never had the first idea of what the Steps are. We have turned the Steps into something they were never intended to be, into something that cannot work for the majority of Frum addicts. All because we did not read the Big Book.

When you read the Big Book you will see that the steps are all about Foundations. Foundations that are common to almost all religions.
They are not protim (details). None of them.
They are not even klolim (general rules). None of them.
They are yesodos (foundations). All of them.
They are Yesodos so basic, that most religions - with all their stupidities - recognize their universal truths. They are equal and applicable to every human being.

The alcoholic and addict needs to begin life anew. He needs to build new foundations for a new existence. He has to start his entire building over again. (We will address "why this is so" in tomorow's e-mail IY"H). And for this, he needs yesodos - foundations, like Cinder Blocks. You don't use decorative ceramics for foundations, you don't even use regular bricks. You need Foundation Stones. You don't use klolim (general rules) for foundations, and you certainly don't use protim (details) for foundations.

"Abandoning Lust" is a foundation stone. That belongs in the steps of the sexaholic. That is clear and simple. It is equal and relevant to everyone.

How about saying tikkunim and mikva (as mentioned in the Torah steps)? As much as they are an integral part of the path to holiness, are these foundations that are so basic that all rational religions agree on them? Do they apply equally to all human beings?

Of course not. Even for those who practice them, they are not foundations. They are not even general rules, they are "details". It is like building a foundation on decorative glass.

It is important to realize that in promoting these "lists", we undermine the whole building. Because the foundation of this tower that we need to fight the yetzer hara has to be steps so simple, so basic, that you can do all 12 steps wherever you are, in any time or place, without prerequisites of any inherent spiritual levels. Steps that are such foundations that everyone gets them, even non-Jewish drunks.

And the same goes for other details mentioned in the 12 Torah steps such as; stringencies within marriage, admitting sins to a Torah scholar, not gazing at forbidden sights, Torah study, yiras shomayim and shmiras hamitzvos. Of course we should aim for kedusha (holiness), but kedushah is the top floor. It is not the foundation. Woe to those who try and use their top floor materials to build their foundation. By all means, start working on holiness right now and today, build yourself an entire building if you can, from the foundations all the way to the top floor, in one day. But whatever you do, don't use your top floor as your foundation.

Like we saw in Chizuk e-mail #439 (on this page), the Rash Mikinon learned all the hidden secrets of Kabbalah, but how did he daven? Like a one-day-old baby.

We should indeed aspire to reach all levels of holiness, Fear of Heaven, Love of G-d and Torah learning. But how should we come back to Hashem? Like a simple drunk, using the 12 steps of 1939.

I think that this Pasuk in Koheles 7:29 says it best: "Asher asa ha'Elokim es ho'odom yoshor, veheima bikshu cheshbonos rabbim - G-d has created man straight, yet they have sought many calculations (complications)".

The Yetzer Hara knows that once he can make it complicated he will win.

So let's keep it simple and return to what worked.

Just yesterday, I asked Rabbi Twerski if he had time to weigh in on our discussion in the thread called "Torah and the 12-Steps" and he replied as follows:

Many years ago, I was asked, Why don't we have a recovery program based on Mussar? I wrote the book "Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!" with such a program, and at the end of the book I said, "turn the page and read the 12 steps." It's the same thing.
Twerski

So if you, Yakov, want to do a great service to us all, and to the whole of Klal Yisrael, I suggest buying that book, reading it well, and then posting a NEW version of the "12-Steps-Torah Version" like you did here above, but based on that book. I trust Rabbi Twerski a lot more than Tzvi Fishman  ;D

With all my love and respect,
Guard

Rabbi Twerski also said:

"The ultimate solution is for a person to work hard on increasing one's yiras shamayim and praying for siyata dishmaya. There are no short cuts."

"The only thing that can be effective against immoral temptations is kedusha; no if, ands, or buts.  There is NO other way".

Growing in yidishkite is always the key.

Yakov, Yakov, Lashon Chiba,

I agree 100% that shtayging in Ruchniyus is the way to go, and that Tehhilim, Tikkunim and Mikva are all wonderful things and very helpful, but they aren't the 12-Steps! Tzvi Fishman doesn't have a clue about what the purpose of the 12-Steps really is. Why is he calling it the 12-Steps? Is there some Kabala Mi'Moshe Misinai that there are 12 Spiritual Steps to recovery from addiction? No. He is trying to be Malbish true spiritual growth on top of this goyish program. He is being Malbish the fancy top floor glass onto the foundation stones. That is missing the boat completely. The 12-Steps are a foundation, and the wonderful things that you are talking about are the beautiful glass of the top floors.

Can you pull a completely unaffiliated Jew off the street and tell him to read tehilim with a broken heart, say Tikkunim and go to the Mikva? No. You have to start with the ABCs of understanding there is a G-d, and He loves us, and He is all powerful, etc... Well, it is the SAME for a real addict. Although he is an affiliated Jew, his Yiddishkeit and perception of Yetzer hara and Torah is completely warped. He needs a remake, from the foundation up; To truly start to feel that Hashem loves us, and that only He can take it away from us - but only if we are ready to start being honest with ourselves and with our fellow man, and learn to let go of self-centerdness, etc.. And when the addict gets this remake in his thinking, and he really starts to FEEL something real stir in his heart for the first time in his life, then, and only then, will he truly be able to start to say tehillim with a broken heart and do meaningful tikkunim, etc... But as long as he holds on to his old perceptions and to his addictive thinking and his selfishness and his resentments (that he is probably not even aware of), he can do all the tikkunim and say all the tehilim in the world and Hashem will say to him, "my son, first let go of the Sheretz before you try Toiveling in the Mikva".

The 12-Steps are about letting go of the sheretz.
The rest of the beautiful and powerful tools you mentioned above are about toiveling in the Mikva.
You can't have one without the other, but you also can't put them together like Tzvi Fishman did. That is a complete misunderstanding of what the 12-Steps are all about.

So on GYE we are very open minded. We are here for EVERYONE. Indeed, there are some Yidden who can jump straight to the top floors. They aren't missing Yesodos, they were just missing certain basic yediyos. But as soon as they find they are not alone, and that this is an addiction, and they learn the yesodos that Battleworn posted today, then they are ready to build their top floors. And you are such a person Yakov. And so is Battleworn and Bardichev and a few other Tzadikim here. But unfortunately, there are SO MANY others here that are missing basic Yesodos. So many others that have a real disease that can't be cured with the beautiful glass of the top floors. They keep trying and falling, trying and falling, and this goes on for months and years. So tell me, is it a dark day for GYE that we finally started to yell "FIRE" WAKE UP!" for these Yidden and explain them that their disease is a lot deeper than they think? Is it wrong for us to tell them they are tying to put band-aids on a cracked skull (as Dov says)? We want them to learn the Yesodos, not so that GYE becomes a goyish site and stays with that chas veshalom, No! But because once they HAVE these yesodos, they can FINALLY start to truly grow AS YIDDEN.

I hope I am being clear.

Dear Yaakov -
Hi and thanks for bringing up discussion about the tools of R' Fishman's site. I admit I have not read through Guard's replies nor your returns. In addition, all I have for you is my own experience, not a Torah opinion. (The truth is that had you asked me fifteen years ago - when I was still destined to have the worst years of acting out before me - I would have told you what I thought was a/the Torah opinion! Ha! Not so now, B"H, being sober today... )

It is apparent to me that R'Fishman is trying to be mekarev people who are straying from Torah the best way he knows how. His intentions are mostlikely 100% leshem shomayim, which is more than can be said for me! He approaches addiction as "straying from Torah". He uses words like atonement, tikkun, teshuva. He doesn't hide that at all.

You wrote: However, as tzvi writes in his introduction:
At the outset, we want to emphasize that this is not a complete list of the many effective remedies and atonements that our Sages have formulated for sexual transgression and self-correction, but rather a basic guideline that can serve as a foundation for the lifetime of Torah and t'shuva that must follow, in order not to return to the mistakes of the past.
You also wrote:
Many people who have been trapped with this yetzer hara have beautiful neshamas that truly seek spirituality.  However, upon throwing away our sins, many yidden do not know how to build themselves up slowly in kedusha and ruchniyus in general.

What he is concerned about is very different in purpose to the 12 steps as I experience them. He is (or you are) trying to use the 12 steps as a complete guide of avodas Hashem for lust addicts. This initially appears to be an elevation of the 12 steps, but in my opinion, it is really a gross yerida and misrepresentation. Have you or R Fishman read AA and the 12&12? (This is not a challenge, but a question, as it's important reading for this discussion.)
As I understand them, the steps/program is intended to save drunks from drinking by giving them sanity and an authentic spiritual experience (referred to as "awakening"). It just so happens that only Hashem can give that to addicts. Normal people (even yidden)seem to get it from learning, davening, books, rav's, living, etc. Most of us already used rav's, meds, shrinks, frum websites, books, (even GUE forums! -ouch!) to try and gain what we knew was sanity. We knew we were outside the door looking in at life. Well, the program was designed specifically by people who none of those avenues worked for. The program said to them: "if none of those worked for you, and you do not want to die, try G-d. The implication is "because obviously you have not tried G-d before!" This applies to frum yidden as well. The program says to them: "we will show you how we learned to have an honest relationship with your conscience, your G-d, and all people, so you will not need to reach for a drink to tolerate living any more."  It didn't say:"Nu, get religious already, chotei." (Not even Dr Bob said that, really.)
If you think I am just being synical, I ask you: Didn't you say the very same thing to yourself for years? Didn't you, from the first time you acted out against your better judgement, assume all you had to do to stop was finally really get religious, and then you'd get better? I sure did. I frequently see folks who still do.
Well, as many folks in the program will tell you, the program didn't get me religious, B"H, it got me more honest and real. Now, being a frum yid, I chose to be religious. That is my job: not my sponsors, not the program's, and not even Hashem's. Right? He says so in his own Torah, "Choose life" means (Rashi) He brings us to the good field and says "Here is the good life, choose it, my love." Then he leaves it 100% to us. The RMBM writes bechirah is 100% in each person's hands - if it is that important, why doesn't Hashem even try to get us to do right? All he gives us is the info. The rest is up to us. We are pretty much all learned yidden. We have the info, and it hasn't worked for us yet. We knowright from wrong. I trust that when the dust clears we will choose right. If we do not, it means we were lying to everyone around us about what we believed from the start, and if/when my SA meeting becomes a "chizzuk emuna venue", I'm checking out. Why would anyone go to drunks (or to perverts) to learn right from wrong? Preaching on frumkeit, spirituality, and hisBatlus by guys who are still masturbating at home is something I think i do not need. I heard (and did) enough of that myself for years.

Tying yiddishkeit directly into the steps is telling someone what they need to believe in order to get and stay sober. What does information have to do with addiction and the steps? Tell them to go to a Nefesh Hachayim or Tanya class. Don't get me wrong - I go to the mikvah, and consider it part of living right for me. Living right according to my beliefs is 100% essential for my sobriety. Living clean is the same.
For each person, even for each yid, it is very different. Defining it further in the steps cheapens it and makes recovery less accessible to those who are not just like you.
I agree with you that for me, the third step is defined by dedicating myself to doing Hashem's Will all as it is described in the Shulchan Aruch, etc. Yet this is completely irrelevant to a formula for recovery. It is only relevant to the individual addict, in my opinion, as I have tried to make clear.
If you are afraid, as are others on this forum, of chas vesholom "losing" frum addicts to 12step recovery and their dropping shemiras haTorah, I repeat that that is totally and completely their own business, and will be, whether you like it or not.
This addiction is not just spiritual poison, it is an "eil zar". Addicts find out what they really believe in recovery, and having someone frum "to cushion the fall" is really silly. We are not talking about 10-year olds here. We are all adults. Those who are really nuts will "go off", whatever you do, and those who are really frum yidden will stay frum.
I submit to you that those few frummeh yidden who get sober and go off the derech were completely lying to themselves before while they were in addiction. In fact, it is entirely possible that the tension of living as a fake, in a fake frum shell (it looks very real, I know), while being non-believing scoffers on the inside was the cause of their need to act out. I understand this attitude is painful to "do-gooders". But I submit to you that anything else than allowing an addict to go through his own journey is shoving ourselves into someone else's life at a time that they absolutely need to be allowed to discover themselves to save their very lives and often the lives of their families. It may be a comfort for the mekarev, but I find it hard to accept that it is a nachas ruach to Hashem. Let recovery be recovery, and let the steps work, if you believe in them at all. For addicts in particular, appearances are actually the problem, not the solution.

Please know that I agree we should be mekarev all yidden, especially addicts (for me they are all immediate family). But this has nothing to do with recovery. Recovery is Derech Eretz, not Torah.
With love and hope we can find clarity together - Dov

This is the B"M.  We are not here to debate, just give chizzuk and be informative.  

Different strokes for different folks.

These guidelines helped me, and they can help others.  Yes, I agree that a Yid that is continuing to suffer from his addiction and is looking for tachbulos how to BEAT the y"h during nisayon, will not find anything helpful here.  

But a yid that made a clear and conscious decision to never return to p**n, and is now looking to rebuild himself, can in fact find a helpful ladder.  According to boruch, (read post here) this mimics the original intent of the AA's more so than the 12 steps are being used today. I am sorry for quoting you boruch, this is how I understood you.  

The secret on how to remove yourself initially from p**n (both for Jews and non-Jews alike), I cannot fully reveal on this forum.  But if you read Borch's original post that he posted at the beginning of his recovery (please find it for me boruch), you may begin to understand more.  Also, by reading carefully batteworn's AMAZING posts recently, you will understand.  It is for people who are completely honest with themselves.  People who are willing to learn about themselves and are committed to change.  People are willing to admit that there life cannot continue this way and need to put an immediate halt to their lives as they know it.  Not people that "use the meetings as band-aids on cracked skulls" or who "do slow-motion, half-measured Step work".

Please contact me privately for more explanation.  

Rabosai,

I am sorry for hurting anyone's feelings by posting these 13 steps.  Please, tell me, should we remove them.  I was just sharing with the olam something that worked for me.  All of a sudden the 12 steppers came flocking to the beis medresh as if there was terrible fire.  Sorry.

Remember, my dear friends, this is not the place for debate.  I figured it was mutar to post the 13 steps in the beis.  I did not expect peopel to get defensive about it.  Was I wrong?  Was I being chuzpanik by defaming the 12 steps, pretending to be the mr. know it all (which I did not intend).

Email me privately for further discussion.

OY VEY, What have I done. I didn't want this to become a debate. I just thought yakov's words were very strong and since I know he means Lisheim Shamayim, I wanted him to see that we ALSO mean lisheim shamayim. By accepting that different approaches work for different types of people, we can understand that it's not that GYE took a turn for the bad, it's just that we finally started emphasizing and offering a program to people who the OTHER approach doesn't work for. That's all. So I just wanted to make it clear to Yaakov that there are two distinct approaches here, 12-Steps and Torah. They can't be super-imposed one on top of the other. One is much more basic, like letting GO of the Sheretz, and it is for people who really need it. And one is the Tvillah in the Mikva for people who are ready for that. And since GYE is for EVERYONE, we make an effort to emphasize BOTH approaches very strongly. That's all I wanted to make clear to Yaakov and show him we mean Lisheim Shamayim, and that his STRONG words of "darkest days" etc... were coming simply from a missunderstanding - a misreading of what the 12-Steps are meant to be. I think Dov explained it above so beautifully.



and



Do you agree with me now Yakov, that it wasn't such a dark day after all? Is the distinction clearer now between the difference in the two approaches? One being FOUNDATIONS (like simply learning to get honest with oneself, something an addict was never able to do, and letting go of ego), and Torah being "the mikva", the path to eternal life. The 12-Steps is a spiritual AWAKENING. Torah is Spiritual GROWTH. There's a big difference between wakening and growth. We have to WAKE UP before we can start growing.

I love all of you, I just want Yakov, who is an integral and invaluable part of our network, and who supplies our forum which so much amazing chizuk and spirituality from the depths of his emotional and sensitive heart, to UNDERSTAND the GYE approach, and not consider it that we took a turn for the bad  ;D ...

So Yakov, please tell me if -after mine and Dov's explanations above, are we on the same page or not? I consider you a valuable member of the GYE staff and it is very important to me that we are all on the same page.

If still not, send me your cell phone in a PM, I want to talk to you. (I did this with Battleworn a few days ago and now we are B"H on the same page, full of respect and love for each other). It is SO important that we are all Beshalom on this forum, but sometimes it takes a little flare up to come to the truth. If Yakov understands now the difference between the two approaches and that they apply to two totally different situations/types of people, then just for that - it was worth all his strong words. Because they brought clarity to all of us instead of Yakov "holding it in" and thinking that GYE took a turn for the bad.

guardureyes wrote on 01 Jul 2009 08:38:


Guard, unlike many others here, I have never called you Rabbeinu before, but since resentment is the number one cause of addiction and since you seem to strike me as the Number One oheiv es habriyos umkorvon laTorah on this site, I thank you Rabbeinu Guard for all you are teaching me about the midda of Aharon Hakohen

Wow, to be called Rabbeinu by Boruch for the first time is not something I take lightly  ;D

I want to just tell everyone, Yakov and Boruch, that I had a long talk with battleworn today by phone and I had missunderstood what he was trying to do. He is not just suggesting we build the top floors with a Torahdik approach. He is looking for a way to take the most profound Yesodos of the Torah and of the 12-Steps and build a program that will have great success in rebuilding even a real addict, from the ground up. Just like the 12-Steps does, but with a Torahdik approach. This is a profound undertaking and we hope to work together with him to do this. Who knows, maybe one day, even the most hopeless frum addicts will be able to join frum groups that work with this NEW approach and be even MORE successful than the 12-Steppers are today. He wants to take out of the Torah all the Yesodos of rebuilding a person, learning to get honest with ourselves, letting go of the self, being born anew, etc... I believe that if we can build such a program it would be a great To'eles for Klal Yisrael.

But until such a program exists - with a clear set of guidelines, and until there are groups and sponsors that work with these ideas, we will have to go with the second best option for those who really need a "remake", and continue suggesting the SA groups for those who have tried the first 13 steps of the handbook and are still not seeing success, just like Rabbi Twerski has been doing for the last 20 years in absence of anything better. Battleworn, do you agree?

I believe that people like Boruch and Yakov can be instrumental in helping battleworn and me develop such a new program. Yakov and Boruch, do you want to join this revolutionary undertaking? I think Battleworn's thread over here is already a great start. But it needs a lot of polishing. Also, there may be some perceived disagreements in Hashkafa between the 12-Steps and a Torah approach. At least battleworn thinks there are, although I disagree. In such cases, we can bring our question to Rabbi Twerski for resolution. For example, Battleworn believes that the 12-Steps don't believe in Hishtadlus and Milchemes Hayetzer, while the Torah approach does. Maybe I missunderstand him. My view is that there is no disagreement at all, it is a matter of perception. So these type of questions will have to be ironed out. But in general, I think we may be onto something BIG.

Thank you battleworn. I am here to work together with you on this monumental project. And all who want to join are welcome. Klal Yisrael needs you!

guardureyes wrote on 01 Jul 2009 12:19:


Guard,
I had originally decided that I was going to sit this one out. Until that is I had more years and more sponsees. But if this thing is starting today, I do not have to start it and I am invited to join, then I am certainly interested in contributing in whatever way the Eibishter sees fit.

Great. Thank you Boruch... So let's continue the discussion on this thread.

Yakov, will you join us? I believe that between me, Battleworn, Boruch and You, along with Boruch's extensive knowledge of the 12-Step literature and what really works for an addict, and along with Rabbi Twerski's book on the Torah approach to the 12-Steps which one of us should read ("Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!"), we can accomplish great things for klal Yisrael! And if I can get Dov to join us, we would do even better I think, (even though some of us might think Dov is too set in his ways for such a project, I disagree. Shoin, we'll see)  :D

But remember, no attacking, no arguing, only Shalom and mutual respect. I know it's hard  , because these things touch on matters that are so important and dear to all of us, such as Hashem, Torah, RECOVERY, and the future of klal Yisrael (what is more important than that?), but I believe we can accomplish great things together. If there are any disagreements that can't be resolved, I'll take it to Rabbi Twerski bl"n...

Yaakov, Guard, and anyone else:

I was debating you, straight-up-in-your-face, and did not hold anything back in my post. I did the wrong thing in the wrong place. I apologize to you, Yaakov, and to anyone else who I offended, even a little.

Thanks for your reply to me and I look forward to PM-ing you when I am concerned about something that anyone posted, in the future.
Thank-you very much.
Your friend,
Dov

"You are always so upbeat 7Up, that all the men want to share in your happy attitude!"


I'm not feeling so upbeat today everyone.

Until recently, GUE always felt like such a safe, warm haven. Suddenly, dark storm clouds have gathered, and a cold wind has blown in. I'm scared.
I feel that the YH saw how much has been accomplished here; the common goal, the unified front. I only joined 3 weeks ago, but it seems that mountains have moved, and malachim are cheering us on. Our koach to bring the geula is mind-boggling. There was no "I", or "me" involved, only "how can help the next person" and " Ish echad b'lev echad".

Much has changed Rabbosei. I sense the YH regaining ground c'v. As soon as he is able to split us apart, he has won. Not only will we lose the lust battle, but we will lose the overall war - a chance for deveikus with Hakadosh Baruch Hu.

We speak about being the front line" soldiers. Personally, I dont think we are. I think we are the rear guard.
A regular army sets its soldiers up in a well thought out battalion. The front would be the top soldiers; the ones who can immediately size up the situation, and defend or attack accordingly. Their prowness and strength acts as a cover for the weaker soldiers stationed behind. Behind the front row, the regular fighters line up, defending as best they can. Their main strength comes not so much from skill, rather the fact that there is strength in sheer numbers standing together. Next come the rear guard, and behind them, the king himself. The rear guard has an awesome responsibility. They are protecting THE KING. No slackers or mediocre soldiers will be allowed this job. Only the best of the best; those who can fight an enemy standing before them, as well as shoot the one sneaking from behind. These are the guerilla fighters, prepared to defend their king no matter how the enemy may chose to disguise himself.

The 'front line' are our Gedolim. They can size up the current nisayon and lead in either defense or attack. They are unquestionably Hashem's 'top soldiers' The regular fighters are Klal Yisrael as a whole; their stregth is in their unity. OUR role, is to defend the King Himself. The enemy of this dor is the yeshod of erva etc. GUE warriors are in top training, prepared for this war specifically.

This is the final war guys. PLEASE, let's not let the enemy sneak in between our ranks, attacking from within. The King needs us unified. WE need us unified.

May we be zoche to greet the Melech Hamashiach yet today.

Rebbitzen 7Up,

1st. You are 100% right only this post belongs on the threads you are referring to.

2nd I the Janitor of the Beis Medrash have the Power to clean up the garbage as I have already started to do & will continue to at 6pm EST so that those who choose can clean up there own shmutz.

& 3rd Rabeinu Guard is doing an outstanding job personally getting involved in making sure we can all get along so that we can win this battle we are all fighting for.

Perhaps this story can help.

A Non Religious Jew once asked I think it was Reb Amnon Yitzchak. (He might of been asking it sarcastically) he said "I want to become frum but I don't know what sect to choose!"

1st you have Sfardim, Ashkanazim & Mizrachim

Then you have with in them you have so many other sects and everyone has their own way!

So how do I choose?

So he gave this gr8 comparison.

Rav Amnon Yitzchak asks him, The Army! They have Ground Troops, the Navy the Air Force, Comandos, Seals, Yasam, Golani, and so on. why so many different types? who are the ones that can win the war those are the ones we need! forget about the rest! Which one is the right one?!

The answer is we need them all! Everyone fights in there own way and together only together but every one with their own tactics can they win! you just have to see in what section of the army you can fight best & that's were you belong.

The Nimshal is obvious! We need the Sfardim, Ashkenazim, Mizrachim, Chasidim, Litvaks, Derech of Simche the Derech of Yireh, Torah, Tefila, Taharah & Yes Even the 12 steps, Evereyone in their own way with their own Tactics.

There's only one important thing to remember at the end of the day.

"We Are All Fighting For One Chief & Commander!"

"We Are All Here To Follow His Will!"

Also, I heard a great vort about Krias Yam Suf.

1) Why was it that the sea was split into 12 Separate lines one for each Tribe?
2) & if it was already Separated then why were the walls Crystal Clear so was one tribe able to look into the others?

The Answer is Gevaldig!

We all have are own Derech that we have to follow & not Budge from it! But! But! But! We have to see that the others also have a derech and they too have a Nosi Leading them & that Nosi is Following Toras Moshe MiSinai that Moshe Rabeinu got directly from Hashem!

So, I think that the message is loud & clear "Harbei Drachim La'Mokoim!"

So even if we disagree with one another on what Approach works in this fight, there's no need to get all Heated up or and using Hurtful words. WE CAN SAY THE SAME EXACT THINGS WITHOUT THE EXCITEMENT THAT COMES ALONG WITH IT & without getting PERSONAL.

Yes!
Efshar Letaken