why did reb elkezar ben dudarya say eiin hadavar taluy ela bee if we learn here on this site that we are powerless and only hashem can take us out?

The next question is why do people say that we don't find addiction in chazal? The above gemora says shaani minus demushcha. The maharal says that someone who is aduk bearayos is keadam achar. He also says he is like a person who is in a deep hole with no one to take him out.
I think this a perfect description of a lust addicct .

The third question is why doesn't a recovered lust addicct die.

re:third question - why a lust addict does not die.

maybe because they have already died so many deaths...and his well being is meant to serve as an example to others that techias hamais is a reality. His survivial helps to build others emuna.

Maybe we can say the following:

About the first question, Reb Eleazar b. Dordaya first asked the mountains, sun, moon, etc. to DAVEN for him. When they refused, he said "eiin hadavar taluy ela bee", referring to davening to Hashem to fix him. Davening to Hashem is another way of saying that we are powerless and only Hashem can take us out.

Sounds like you found the makor in Chazal (your second question) ! What is fascinating about the Maharal's description ("like a person who is in a deep hole with no one to take him out") is that Yosef Hatzaddik (who personifies the Yesod) was taken out of a deep hole twice - once the bor his brothers threw him in and the second time from the prison (also described as a "bor") in Mitzraim.

About the third question, I'm understanding the question as "Why did only Reb Eleazar b. Dordaya die and not everyone else who stops this behavior ?" There are 2 differences I can think of:

1) He was much more into the addiction than any of us.
2) He changed totally in one hour, and that was enough to kill him. We change more gradually. Or maybe another way of saying it is that he fully recovered and we never really fully recover.

I actualy was scared to sy it but once you said it maybye the mountains and sun was also an apeall to a higher power. The book says that at the beginning even the sponsor can be the higher power.

The dimyon ypto yosef sounds intresting

I didn't explain the third question enough. The maharal says that the reason why he has to die is because he became one with his addiction. so answer one can maybye work but not number two

tizku lemitzvos

other suggestions for addictions:

- Yosef brothers...after throwing Yosef in the pit,hey sat down and ate.

seems to me addictions follow the path of aveiras... in that what ever action we are drawn to, it leaves us really longing for something of substance...and try to fill the void of our aveiras with food, sex, etc.

problem is we get used to filling the gap with our "pleasure foods" and in the end winds up owning us.

- spys in erez Isroel... they said that they were like grasshoppers in their eyes.

again a foundation point to addictions ..low self esteem, and how we see each other.
one only has to take a look through the posts to see how hard it is to address someone on the forum after a slip.

I think I got it. Question number three why don't all recovered lust addicts die like reb elazar ben durdaya? The answer is that we learn on this site, once a addicct always an addicct. The reason is like the maharal explains, that the lust is a part of us and therfore we are kiish acher. So to take out the lust is ripping apart our heart. So we stay recovered addiccts reb elazar wanted a teshuva shlaima that he shouldn't be an addicct. This is impossible because the lust is part of him

frumfiend wrote on 12 Apr 2010 16:40:


In the 12-Step groups they say:

- powerless does not mean helpless.
- powerless is never an excuse to continue
- we are responsible for our recovery
- we cannot think our way out, we need to act our way into a new pattern of thinking.
- Determination is completely up to us.

That's what he meant "it's all up to me". Not the power to break free, but to learn to let Hashem help us.

frumfiend wrote on 12 Apr 2010 16:40:


There have been many posts on this forum bringing various chazals that seem to talk about addiction. See the Ohr Hachayim in Acharei Mos on the Arayos... Also, here's a quote from the Handbook intro:

our Sages understood the nature of addiction as Rebbe Asi said: “The Yetzer Harah in the beginning is compared to a strand of a spider web, and in the end like a rope that is used to tie cattle”. Even more so, in this area where our Sages have said: “The more it is fed, the hungrier it gets”. Our Sages also recognized that once a person repeats a particular sin a number of times “it becomes to him as if it is permitted”.

frumfiend wrote on 12 Apr 2010 16:40:


I think that we have much smaller neshamos today and much greater tests, so Hashem, in His great mercy, revealed the 12-Steps to humanity, and brought GYE into existence, all so that we have some "fighting chance" to survive, and learn how to use this disease as a spring-board to coming close to Hashem. Without Hashem's infinate patience, this would never be possible. However, in Rav Elazar's time, and with the greatness of his soul, it could be that he had no choice but to die to complete his Teshuvah.

Also, he accomplished what he had come down to the world for, in that one hour. So he went back. For us, it takes a life-time  ;D

Just to clarify one point. The reason why this chazal is so exciting is because the maharal says he dies because he cannot live without this addicction.

The teretz the olam here is saying on the first question of en hadavar taluy ele bee is that of course a person has to want and let himself be changed. Did I get it right? I think someplace on the forum noorah has very learned shtiklach on free will and ratzon is that the same idea here?

not on the same subject exactly.but similar:
in Pirke Avos steit:
Im ayn ani li, ..... (eyan Rabeinu Yonah for a emesdige p'shat )

i was thinking Im ayn ani li if i don't take steps to self-nurture through making goals and b'ezras Hashem acheiving  them,

then mi li ,no amount of external kavod,attention,praise,love,ect will generate these good feelings of fulfillment and satisfaction.
may we all be zoche to some of these good feelings of aliyah ruchni.

frumfiend wrote on 12 Apr 2010 16:40:


Simple: An addict has to stop blaming the world for his problems, even if they are to blame. He will get nothing accomplished. He need to take the responsibility in his hands and do something about it.

Mr destructive
That really is a very simple but true answer.
Only a addict like us would be able to state it so simply.

yedidya aleph wrote on 29 Jun 2010 01:13:
That is really somthing that i struggle with. If i finish shas i will get alot of kavod. If i stop looking at porn that for us is harder, can i go around looking for kavod for not being a pervert? Our battle is totaly pnimius

RACHMANA LIBA BOIY!

I have heard directly from an internationally  famous Talmid Chacham,one of the truely outstanding Torah teachers of our generation,the following advice for dealing with  overwhelming distress. His instructions are as follows:
after Shacharis say the following short Prakim of Tehilim (13 and 142) then say the following prayer to Hashem (not on Shabbos or Yom Tov). If the Hebrew is too difficult, they could be said in English.
"Ribono Shel Olom,ayn ani mevakesh elah rachamim"
translation Master of the Universe,I am only asking for Divine Mercy".

btw (my own comment) What  a better time to cry our for Divine mercy than  this month of Elul,when Hashem wants us to come close to him.

the reason he died was because he reached an amazing level of deveikus bahashem