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something fascinating heard from a breslover rov
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.
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TOPIC: something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 1539 Views

something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 04 Aug 2009 03:16 #10600

  • bochur28
In my yeshiva, a few months ago i heard an amazing idea from a rov who learns in the beis medrash of my yeshiva, although I dont think he's got much to do with the yeshiva itself. I had seen breslover seforim in his shtender all throughout the zman, and at that point I had decided that I wanted to learn rav nachman seriously.

We were discussing a certain point in likeutei moharan, about the bechira of a tzadik(it was the torah about the bechira of moshe rabbeinu being manifested in his adding an extra day to the shaloshes yemey hagbalah on his own, being kechaven to the ratzon hashem, that if he wouldnt have done it, and had just had 2 days likke the pasuk says, then there wouldnt have been a matan torah - it talked about how since moshe rabbeinu was a shliach, the pople would have more bechira with the aseres hadibros than if Hashem himself spoke them, he also says that a tzadik's bechira is about which method to use within the realm of avodas hashem, which option will be the best of the best thing to do) and I asked him how can Rav Nachman say that a tzadik's bechira is just about what method of avodas hashem he uses will be best, if chazal say that hagadol mechavero yitzro gadol memenu - lechora it's a stirah, since pashtus is that Rav Moshe Feinstein for instance had a yatzer hora that would make me into an instant serial killer/mechalel shabbos/oved avodah zara, etc.., like the gemora says about the amora who met menasheh in a dream.

So the Rov answered me by saying that a guy who's constantly in kedushah, learning 24 hours a day, totally doveik to the rebono shel olam - ca be oiver on Niuf(adultery). I asked him to explain, and he said that for instance, chazal say 'kol hakoes keilu oved avodah zara' - he explained that different things we do can be 'keilu' many other things, depending on kavanah, machshava, etc.. no one's free from the yatzer hora, he explains, and rav nachman wasn't contradicting the above idea of hagadol mechavero yitzro gadol memenu.

(I cannot verify it, but someone in yeshiva said that this Rov is actually the rov of the breslover shul in williamsburg)
Last Edit: by struggle.

Re: something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 04 Aug 2009 03:22 #10602

  • Tomim2B
-- deleted --
Last Edit: 08 Jan 2010 19:01 by gorskyjew05.

Re: something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 04 Aug 2009 05:19 #10607

  • bochur28
yeah, I heard those gemoras in different shiurim after this meeting with the rov - I really should ask him this as a kasha when I see him next zman, it doesnt seem to fit.

Also, you'd have a kasha on the whole piece from rav nachman then - i forgot which siman it's in, but it's a short torah which is normally learned around shavuous time, since it deals with matan torah; the rov said it is learned by people not so versed in breslover chassidus because it's not too deep(i personally found it very deep), it starts out with a pasuk that has a dialogue between hashem and moshe rabbeinu
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Re: something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 04 Aug 2009 10:35 #10633

  • the.guard
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Chazal say that if you eat from a se'udah of Pidyon haben it's "ke'ilu" you fasted 84 fasts... I think the Kotzker says that these "84 fasts" will only be mechaper on other "ke'ilu's" like "kol hakoes, keiulu oved avodah zara"... 
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Re: something fascinating heard from a breslover rov 04 Aug 2009 13:31 #10657

  • tester613
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bochur28,
excellent question!
Take a look at rav nachman, LM(#72) where he addresses your question (if I understood you correctly).  He discusses the famous idea of the two yetzer haras. One is internal.  That one is our physical drives. The there is the external yetzer hara. This yh is like a malach that comes to trick us and actively persuades us to sin.  Rav Nachman writes that it is not shayach for a true perfected tzadik to desire physicality.  He does not have the first yetzer hara.  One who does, has a blemished soul.  (The rambam makes this point very clear in shemone parakim, and addresses the gemara you quoted above.)  He says the tzadik's urge for sin is not a physical one, but emanates from spirituality. We cannot comprehend those aveiros.  Take a look at mei hashiloach parshas pinchas where he discusses the ten levels of adultery.  The higher levels are relevant for people that are removed from physicality, but yet they get these urges anyways. 

The idea of the two yh's  can also be found in iggeres hamussar by Rav Yisroel salanter, and many other seforim. Rav Dessler elaborates on it in chelek 5, page 23.  Rav dessler explains that the opposite is also true.  A person that never address his physical desires, his basic yh, the other form of yh does not work on him.  As long as a person does not address his improper character traits, his level and situation is very low.  At this low level the Bad Malach (‘Satan’) does not need to come to man with tricks.  The person is already a slave to his own physicality and will lead himself into total failure and despair.  The Satan’s work is taken care of without him getting involved.

Rav Dessler address the gemaras in kiddishin/succa directly and writes the following:
However, once man begins to overcome his natural inclinations and actually changes and reforms his character traits to the ‘good’, then the Malach comes to sway him and trick him.  He finds those areas in the man that are not yet perfected and then takes advantage of man’s weakness and tricks him and lets him fall in those areas.  Once the yetzer hara (Satan) has grabbed hold of a person, his level can be taken down to a point where he can commit the most horrific sins (yeah, no kidding).  The Greatest of men when held as a slave to the yetzer hara will need to view himself as the lowest of mankind to get themselves out of the mess.  At that moment, he has fallen to the level of the people with defected character traits.  This is the meaning of Kol Hagadol m’Chaverio etc.  Abayei theoretically can be caused to fall in this situation, even though he has perfected midos.  He was saying that his yetzer hara would have tricked him so badly that his most minute physical desires will become unleashed in moment of temptations.

-yaakov
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