[Moderator's note: Not to worry, both removed posts have been saved.  They are down for the time being while the GYE management decides if they should stay up.  Among other things, the advice you were given (and seem to be implying may be helpful to others) and the conclusions you have reached may (or may not) be appropriate for you, but they definitely may be harmful to others (whether they are addicts or are simply dealing with a normal yetzer horah) who can really be helped, but could, c"v, be persuaded to simply throw in the towel.  I know that this was not your intent, but I am also confident that you would not want that on your shoulders.

The topic is locked while the matter is under review. 

Wishing you well!]

  My friend I wish you all the luck in the world. However, HZL is not healthy, and it is not supposed to be normal, no matter how our sick society looks at it. There are no scientific proof that says constant masturbation is healthy. While, there maybe some benefits to relations in the marital venue, THERE ARE NO HEALTH BENEFITS when performed with the hand.

  The second point I would like to present is that while you claim there to be no addiction, I know the only way for me to overcome this is through the 12 step program. I think people need to stop asking the question, "is it really and addiction? it can't be...Jews can't be addicts" ... this type of thinking is not productive to stopping. Moreover, I firmly believe and will do ANYTHING that is proven to help a person stop. And, yes! the 12 step program is proven to work. Hell, it's working for me.

So lets stop asking the questions and put in the work. I could quote Zohars, Rambams, shulcha aruchs, and many more meforshim that say it is the worst sin. However, I do not believe it would be conducive. And let me just tell you ANYONE and I mean ANYONE can overcome this nissayon. one more time... ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE can overcome this addiction. YOU included!!!

With the deepest love,
Nate

Dear SAJ,

It's possible that you are not a true addict, although from what you wrote here, it sounds very much like you are. 

It's true that, from a secular perspective, masturbation is viewed as normal.  So are many sexual (and other behaviors) that are forbidden by the Torah (homosexuality was removed from the DSM-IV, for example).  But, if you don't want to call the behavior "abnormal," let's just say that it's very much not in our best interest.  I know that, because G-d loves us and gave us the Torah for our absolute benefit.  G-d is not schizophrenic, and, the same G-d who gave us the Torah created the human body and human sexuality.  Once you're married, IY"H, you'll see how destructive to the marital relationship it is when the husband takes things "in his own hands."  And, it's not that easy to suddenly stop once you're married, although a good deal of the Nisayon may be removed.

Based on where it sounds like you're holding, I strongly suggest that you don't look at masturbation as an all or nothing proposition.  The fact that you may "know" that you will fall sometimes does not mean that you should not be trying - or, at the very least, setting limits.  Even if you don't feel ready now to stop completely, you want to at least show G-d that you're making an attempt.  Doing (at least) that much is within your bechira, and you can build on it over time.

Wishing you only Bracha v'Hatzlacha, and the Simcha that comes with being in control of our desires (something that the secular world is clueless about because they have never experienced it).

Dear SouthAfricanJEW,

So nice to hear from you! Your post is very interesting and well...interesting! Because of it, I went back in history and read through your thread ("Pork or cold Turkey," or something like that) in great interest, just to see what the record shows about the actual discussion there about a year ago.

In particular, I read our correspondences in #'s 53 through 66 with extra attention. Two things amazed me:

1- You wrote much of the same stuff that you wrote above. Guilt was and is your only real issue with masturbation - doing it is not causing you any problems, just the guilt over it is; you never went into what your motivationfor masturbating was/is - that I found (and still find) very interesting; and you were very respectful to everyone. That's pretty unusual, too.

and 2- the amazing consistency and redundancy in what I posted then compared to what I posted just the other day! Gevalt! I am soooo boooooring and predictable!

Boruch Hashem, it is clear to me that I never told you that "Ayyy! You'd better stop masturbating!", nor that it was like killing people, or anything like that. You knew all that already and it was obviously only making things worse! My contribution could only be in sharing my experience with you, not telling you to do anything.

But the real point I want to make here is this, and it's about GYE:

What do you expect from a non-professional forum of people who in most cases are not in any kind of recovery, at all. The majority of people here are also using - or trying to stop using - internet porn. Did they just start the day before and come here to post in utter shock at the aveiro they just did for the first time? Sirely very few are like that. No, most have been messing around and hiding and lying to keep sneaking peeks on the dirty internet for a long time already - and they are frum Jews who go to shul, keep Shabbos, learn and even teach! Of course we are a goofy bunch with problems between the ears!!

So? What, are we supposed to go "cold turkey" from our loopiness and suddenly think clearly?

No. And that's why sharing our struggles and the things we are doing about them is the main benefit people will find here, rather than droshos to convince them that they'd better stop, or why to stop, etc.

Most have been This forum is for yidden who want to have a place to express their frustration regarding their porn use, etc., without shame.  They are looking for support. Support is not recovery - but it is definitely worth a lot and many people have gone on from here to improve or even meet their goals - with or without 12-steps recovery.

Hatzlocha in your path, whatever it is. Many people tend to expect growth to come quicker than it really does - amd here there are many who talk of "finally doing teshuvah sheleima for this aveiro," as though it is really 'an event'. How silly. Chovos haLevavos (right at the start of "Sha'ar haTeshuvah") clearly describes teshuvah as the new way you live and not as any event, at all!

I believe that as long as you remain honest with yourself, and try to follow the Will of Hashem to the best of your ability, you will be fine in the end. I cannot define that for you and would not bother to try! I like the Torah, and so do you, so we can relate on that one. The truth in ourselves has a way of bringing us over the right road - sometimes it requires a wife to kick us in the bum hard enough to get there, sometimes it requires a failure - like mine (an addiction) - whatever...but we start living in a better and better way as long as we stay on that road of self-honesty. 

I am a nobody - worse - and addict nobody, and cannot hold court with any of the respected experts you have spoken with.

From the very start you were firm that the 12-steps derech is not for you. I wondered how you knew that, but never asked. As I believe that the 12-steps is only relevant for a person who has an addiction and wants to stop but cannot, I feel like finally asking you how you came to the conclusion that it was not for you back a year ago when you still wanted to stop but could not.

I fully understand if you wish to just drop the entire topic and never look back, but it might help me understand people a bit better, so I ask.

What do you expect from a (northamerican)JEW?

PS. Well there I go again. It's 3am and i tried falling asleep but couldn't for a while, so came back to the forum and saw what you wrote. I have been posting too much here lately and will try to stop for a while or at least cut back.

Guess I am not off to a very good start.

Still love you SAJ,

Dov

Hang on dov, there seems to be a major misunderstanding here; I was not referring to you at all!!! :'(

I’m not sure why you think I was addressing you. I actually find you very open minded and caring
I was actually thinking of writing that above  but my fingers kind of got lazy. I sincerely apologies
I did not actually realize that you ran this site I thought you were just a very wise and experienced  contributor.
But your willingness to listen to what others have to say is an inspiration to me.  I cannot express this enough.
I was specifically referring to a previous correspondence that did not involve you.  I swear I was not referring to you!
I went to those two psychologist after that “pork” post, in fact very recently .

Mabe I am upset and frustrated and I was wrong to post this I apologize.

I was actually thinking about writing to you privately about this instead of writing this publically because a really value what you have to say.  perhaps  I should have.
and I think I will. can I write to you privately? Then I can write openly without fear of making people really confused.

Dear SouthAfricanJew,

You keep coming back with the same discussion... Already almost 2 years ago we had correspondence with you about this, and we even involved Rabbi Twerski.

See here: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/RTwerski/Can'tStop.asp

We have helped hundreds of unmarried Bochurim break free of this completely. Yes, it is possible.

This forum is a place where we learn how to give lust up to Hashem; to give up the right to lust in unhealthy ways. When we learn how to reach out to others when feeling weak, and we learn how to be less self-centered people, we can find progressive freedom from the tyranny of lust.

If you want to discuss this privately offline with Dov or me, you are welcome to. You sound like you are trying the best you can, may Hashem help you succeed.

Dear Guard,

This man has never, to my recollection, mentioned having any 'lust' problem. He has exclusively been talking about zera levatolah from day one. He has been focusing his discussion on his guilt vs. innocence revolving around his problem with masturbation, period.

This is very different than many others here, who believe that they are in trouble with lust, fantasy-driven masturbation and porn use and promiscuity. I wrote this to him in a letter and wish him the best.
 

Dov,

See the link in Guard's post - 1st question (which SAJ included in his post as well).  He describes a very strong attraction to pornography.