dov wrote on 02 Mar 2011 00:23:



Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 02 Mar 2011 00:08:



BTW, if you were to read all my posts - including the Torah'dig ones - you will find MANY posts praising the 12 Steps. Questions are asked to attain more understanding. Not always does asking a question about an idea imply that the inquirer totally disagrees with that idea!

I do not recall ever saying that the 12 steps is the only approach one can take - Jew or goy - to gain sanity, sobriety, and recovery. I have no reason to believe that Mussar could not help us out.

The only quality the steps have for me is that they are a very good tool to help us learn honesty with ourselves and find our own relationship with G-d. There is nothing else really there, as far as i can see it.

Will you chill and just move on trying to help people by sharing what works for you, and I will do the same, be"H?

dov wrote on 02 Mar 2011 01:56:


This is also a sign of addictive thinking..........


(This post can be understood in two ways; one of them is the 'main' intent...)  :D

@Dov:
dov wrote on 02 Mar 2011 01:56:


Yet when I suggested Sha'ar Habitochon, (which no one has yet to top by a better suggestion) you said:




in which you imply that SH is NOT the answer for someone suffering from financial stress. And while you dont activly say there is no other approche, you insist that almost everyone here is an addict and that they can only be helped by therapy/psychology/12 steps/etc.

I dont have an issue with open minded people who are peering over the wall to the "other side" (i.e. goyish) anyway (i.e. porn/lust) to have a quick peek at something that can jump start them back to "our" side. I'm saddened by how far yidishkeit has come that people think that using goyishe tactics is L'chatchila! It is nothing more than Ma'seh Hayetzer in which its win/win for him - either one will be so depressed over spam and that they will not be able function has a health jew - or he will fine and healthy, with his Neshoma so turned off by modern philosophy that the YH can sleep peacefully at night.

Please dont let the YH win!

o

O, I WAS SO afraid i scared you away, or caused sinas chinam
im so happy to see youre here with us again, i really mean it!

hey, o, i was wondering, why haven't you addressed my points abt. your confidence
second, who in the books is on your side
and of course i dont think torah is not as effective as psychology, its just that even college kids know how to use it to counsel ppl, whereas by Torah even ppl like rabbeinu tam in intro to sefer hayashar says in elul he learned the whole chovos halvavos (like u proscribe!) and it didnt help him bec. he realized he just wasnt applying it to hmself properly? so if it happened to him, it happened to me for toooooooo long; not everyone is as great as rabbeinu tam to wake up before they die and face the ugly truth

PLUS LET ME POINT SOMETHING OUT-IF I DIDNT LEARN ALL THAT MUSSAR, ID ALSO BE ON THE STREETS-of course it helped me therapy wise, as did convos with rabbeim etc......however......SOMETIMES WE ARE ASLEEP WHILE LEARNING, LIKE RABBEINU TAM WAS; IN MY CASE THE LEARNING WAS EVEN SOMETIMES DESTRUCTIVE, BECAUSE MY LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE WAY SURPASSED WHAT I WAS DOING, and it just added guilt

also, if i'd see an eitzah in a sefer and apply it where i shouldnt have, or in less measure, not everything is for our generation, etc. so TORAH IS NOT EFFECTIVE EITHER
WHAT IS THE ONLY AFFECTIVE THING we have is God and all the tools we have in our reach

when we have cutting edge awareness, and sincerity, and reach out to others who experienced what we went through and then came out, isnt this the surefire effective method
fellow reb o yeshiva gggggggggguy, doesnt the rmchl in beg. of mesillas yesh' say that some ppl dont know what theyre saying, and others do who have already reached the middle of the maze, so we shld stop talking and listen to their advice to get through the maze?
so why are u so stubborn? dont forget that i say this with love for you.
i cannot forceu to listen but you can give yrself a potch, "tachas gi'arah bimayveen meihakos ksil meah"-gm brachos

i dont mean to hurt you, i love u. i just dont see how ur posts measure up to the raised questions, and eventually i thought you'd consider some of our points

and surely your'e not making the error that any frum person here is agaisnt torah as it being inneffective, rather we are using all the parve tools hshem gives us

ur right that doing certain things is goyish, but some things are not goyish or jewish-theyre just parve, like wearing suits and black hats like goyim in europe

i thought dave rage alluded to this

my name is avi, whats yours?

you wrote that ur ashamed we here are using goyish ideas to fight the yh

i dont know what is goyish abt. ppl reaching out to each other and sharing advice

can u pinpoint even one thing that we do that is goyish? we'll

adress them one by one
touche!

tzaddik90 wrote on 02 Mar 2011 09:37:

touche, eh?

I never expressed a problem with "ppl reaching out to each other and sharing advice". Just the opposite - I would encourage it. My issue is with those that preach psychology/sa as the answer. Indeed, the White Book can help you gain prospective on the situation, and perhaps sow some ideas in your head.

But who here can take responsibility for saying that SA helped them and the Torah could not? Are you really great enough to push aside our mesorah of thousands of years because your blindly stumbling in the darkness and THINK you found the answer? I'm not suggesting that someone that stopped mast. because of SA/WB/etc should be discredited. I'm wondering why there sure that its THE way.

Remember, testosterone wasnt invented yesterday. For thousands of years before SA/WB came around, Yidden have been struggling with spam. And yet none of them thought of visiting "Ovdei Gelilim" to find the answer!

The gemora tells us that "Kol hagadol mechavaro, yitzroh gadul haymena (basically: the greater you are, the greater your Yetzer Horah is)". Additionally, there are sooooo many halachos dedicated to keeping us away from sapm/adultery/forbiden relationships/etc. Heck, there is even a chazal that describes how the chachomim had to "tame" the YH for Gilu Arayos. Hence, I would believe that most people that achieved greatness had to pass these tests (at some level or another).

Yet none of the gedolim of yesteryear were ever participants at a SA meeting! Dose that mean that we cant go? No, it doesnt. What it means is that there are other ways.

There seems to be a theme on this site that if your here, your obviously at rock bottom. Your also helpless ("We admit that we were powerless over lust"). And hence, the only options are (besides this site) are SA and/or therapy.

Seriously? Are we realy helpless? Would Hashem put us in a nesoyon that we cant overcome? We may feel helpless - and thats why where here! We should be encouraging each other that were not helpless. That we can cope!

Sending the the opposite message, especially the message that Torah cant help ur or that it "doesnt work for me, hence Ill disregard it" is a concept straight out of Modern Psychology - and is totally agains the Torah.

O

Dear O,
Avi here. Sorry abt. my last post-it wasnt formulated well;i was getting wifi while typing with one hand in the basement of a building.
Here is some Torah+psychology for you, tell me what you think about it:
Earlier in the thread, Dov posted to me after my long post, and said that he never sees himself as having healed ligamrei but rather as a  humble addict who strives to do Hshems' will for today.
That way he will never feel he "made it" and that all he has left to do is to "tell others what to do".
Also, he always will remind himself that he is just as powerless to Hashem and powerless to his Yh's, ilmalei Hkbh ozro lo yachol lo; as opposed to thinking he is better and its because of his efforts (and maybe to justify taking in a little YH bec. he's in control, so he'll just stop himself before it's too much, etc.-that's how I thought, anyways...)
THAT WAS THE PSYCHOLOGY
NOW FOR THE TORAH
The gm' in end of third perek of Niddah (brought in first line of TANYA, does that make u hurl?) says before you and i entered the world, we both, you and i, avi, took a shevuah saying that even if the whole world tells us that we are a tzaddik, we must not listen to them and instead we must view ourselves always as a rasha.
Is this fimiliar?
Now, if you were a mental health practitioner, and you were counseling a frum yid, and you quoted him the gm' in niddah, to help him is his recovery, is that wrong?
And i know this is the interpretation of that gm' because i looked at rashi there eyin sham. Also, the Tanya understands it this way.
Now, if instead of quoting the gm' i quoted Dov's post, what that be wrong?
Perhaps what would prompt you to say yes is that by quoting Dov's post, you'd give the impression that the Torah is bereft of Dov's smart point.
So you know what, re-read my long post again carefully, because i already addressed this-because if this bothers you, then just have the therapist quote the post and then explain that it's really a gm' in niddah.
That way, the patient will get the point since it was EXPLAINED SO EASILY TO UNDERSTAND BY SOMEONE WHO IS ALIVE TODAY WHO EXPLAINS HIS POINT FROM AN EXPIRENTIAL CLEAR VIEW THAT IS IMMEDIATELY UNDERSTOOD BY HIS PATIENT,
and THEN show how Hshem and the amoraim were of course much smarter than and preceded idiots like Dov, why, this point is a mefuresh gm' in niddah, sof perek gimel!
Oh, reb o, may i now knock you into submission?
I ALREADY KNEW AND LEARNED THIS GEMARA AND DIDN'T CHAP IT UNTIL I SAW DOV'S POST
TWO FOR THE TZADDIK
now, what is ur wisdom please?

so o, u are in EY? we can meet tog. at doctor toast at 8 tonight, what do u say?

tzaddik90 wrote on 02 Mar 2011 11:13:


Dr. Toast? Seriously? What do you take me for? And you wonder why I'm appalled by this forum!

I'll have to make another "lanus" on your post cause it looks like you used your toes this time around (as far as presentation - not content per se).
Later...

Dear Reb O,

how's your jaw feeling?
(do you have to say tefillas haderech when flying from an uppercut? see igros moshe cheilek tess)

You, kvod kadsho/sincere sweet yid, wrote:

"I'm not suggesting that someone that stopped mast. because of SA/WB/etc should be discredited. I'm wondering why there sure that its THE way."

on this point, i agree with You and david rage. I, or dov, never said there is only one way. If im right, i think dov clearly posted those words as well, and he's an sa member and moderator of gye, smelly and starving guru of the chizuk emails.

1)Everyone must find a way out

2)Everyone has a different way, tanya in hakdama and pele yoetz in asufim say that clearly

3)there are many ways out

4)any permissible way is permissible to get you out

5)If you are like me or dave and tried 300 ways out and your'e still stuck, trying a new way is a mitzvah

6)true, you should or could try to make the Torah way work better, kul hakavod

7)No one said it's THE way. But i did say that for someone who needs to get out, and the Torah way isnt working for him today, and he knows that the 12 or 500 steps (what no elevator?!) will work for him today, then for him, that is THE way, because it is an aveirah right now every second to look at women and do worse things.
And if it wasn't an aveirah, it would still be wrong, bec. if i do this then i am a selfish behaima-mishna in avos-arbah middos bi'adam.....whats yours is mine and whats mine is mine-looking at the bus stop at who gets on is taking and not giving. middas harashah

8)i use torah to help me all the time. i clearly posted that w/out torah i'd be gone
however, a few points to reiterate and clarify-:

A-sometimes torah is destructive, like someone who is medicating himself with mussar and giving himself too much antibiotics

B-someone who medicates himself from mussar and takes too small of a dose

C-s/one who medicates himself from torah and is asleep while he's supposed to be drinking his sudafed remains without medication/like rabbeinu tam

D-someone who isnt in the mood to drink his Torah medicine because he's too depressed too give it a chance needs another method, which he knows scientifically works and it proven throughout the world. Although Torah is moooo more thann effective, still, if i know that SA helped some big Black truck driver in indiana, i'll have the trust needed to invest into SA.
As opposed to Torah hak', which everyone learns in my bais medrash and yet it certainly doesnt help everyone, all the time. Maybe if id join SA and see there are two dozen dropouts each month, i'd have had less faith in gye before i ever tried it. But i do know 5000 yeshiva dropouts, and balei batim too who learn" and still go in their ways.
So this point's got nothing to do with the torah or sa, just it technically was like that for me
By the way, yosher divrei emess says two times in the begining how he knew gedolim in torah KNOWLEDGE who did adultery, and had the gall to argue on the besht

*what IS your name? mine's AVI

I just can't see why you'd be against a tool that can help when another oneisn't going, and your'e drowning in filth, or dying, in me3's words
and im sorry im not posting back to you with the exact precision you deserve. It's just that i do alot of copy and pasting and see most stuff off line and on the green egged buses with grey and blue seats and red buzzors with sometimes black drivers, and yellow poles
i love you so much, come, let me hug you tightly!
avi, i mean tzaddik90

btw, where do you wanna meet, sam's bagels? uri's pizza? or do u eat at nina's?

Reb o

Why don't you ask a posek who is knowledgable about this stuff what you should do?

I don't know who to ask in E'Y (R' Tzvi Meir?). Say Hi I'm a sex, lust, porn addict. Am I better off attending SA meetings and following the 12 steps or learning chovas halevavos.

Throughout the generations the Torah approach is clearly to follow Daas Torah.

Please report back to us.

Me3 wrote on 02 Mar 2011 13:24:


@Me3 -
i think you guys are getting confused here. The question in this thread was never SA vs CH. It was
a. what to do for spam
b. what to do for the STRESS RELATED TO MONEY

Some people here are so confused by whats proper and what isn't that they cant even make the distinction as to what the question is! And we all know what the say in Brisk about understanding the question...

O

[for those that dont know, they say: understanding the question is already half the answer]

Thank you o for getting us back on topic.
You know the other day I was watching a fight and a discussion broke out. Old joke but I couldnt resist.
Hey I'm addicted to old jokes!
Seriously I must be in a better place because my wife is totally stressed, and I'm not. Maybe Im in denial. Dunno.

o wrote on 28 Feb 2011 16:23:


I had no problem with your suggesting Chovas Halevavos to get through stressful situations, I wrote my original post in this thread in response to your second point quoted above.